Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages discussion

Sandy was so kind as to suggest that I link to the full reading list on my blog so that everyone can get a big picture view of this reading project.

The list on my blog is actually 276 (and counting) books long. Why so many? Well, I started out with all of the TWEM books originally, and then added quite a lot more to my list. A LOT. Books that are not from TWEM have an aterisk (*) next to the book's title. They're all mixed in together because I list them chronologically.

So that you see what I mean, here's an excerpt from the list of the first 10 books (Year listed in BCE, Title, Author, Category):

1 2000 Gilgamesh unknown POETRY
2 800 The Iliad Homer POETRY
3 800 The Odyssey Homer POETRY
4 600 Greek Lyricists various POETRY
5 500 Fragments* Heraclitus PHILOSOPHY
6 500 Tao Te Ching* Lao Tzu PHILOSOPHY
7 458 Agamemnon Aeschylus DRAMA
8 450 Oedipus the King Sophocles DRAMA
9 441 The Histories Herodotus HISTORY
10 431 Medea Euripides DRAMA

Notice that Fragments and Tao Te Ching have the asterisks by the titles. I will personally be reading those and discussing them on my blog, but the focus for this GoodReads Group is to read and discuss TWEM books only. As of this post, we're currently reading the Greek Lyrics. Agamemnon will be up next.

(Sorry that my list doesn't have the ability to filter by the TWEM books only.)

OK, without further ado, here's the link: http://www.KeniaSedler.com/theProject

Enjoy! Please feel free to let me know what you think. :-)

Hey everyone! We've recently moved on to our next read: Agamemnon. You've probably noticed that I gave it a "finish date" of July 15th.

I know I'm not the only one reading multiple books at once and participating in various reading challenges, so it just seemed more practical to start giving each book 2 months rather than just 1. (although when we get to Herodotus' Histories I plan to give it 3 months seeing as it weighs in at a whopping 716 pages!) And I don't know about you, but taking the time to read each book deeply is really more the point, than is reading through as many as quickly as possible. (Plus, I'm not that fast of a reader myself, haha.)

This doesn't mean you have to wait to the end to discuss books though! Please always feel free to discuss any of our books at any moment in time. You can always give the discussion a title that indicates how far along you are or which parts you wish to discuss.

Cheers and Happy Reading!

I'm assuming the above is some sort of promotion. Is that allowed, Kenia?

No, it's not. I flagged it yesterday and GoodReads gave me the message: "That comment has been flagged and we will review it as soon as possible "

If they need to review it I wasn't sure I should delete it just yet.

Ah, okay, you're on it. I noticed the member posted similar comments in 5 other groups, so I just assumed ........ It's my moderator's hat coming on ...... I'll take it off now ...... ;-)

I like your moderator's hat! ;-) It's always good to have multiple eyes on things.

All right everyone! It's time to pick up Oedipus the King by Sophocles while we discuss Agamemnon. :-)

As mentioned above, between juggling other reads, being a generally slow reader, and wanting to take the time to read deeply, books will each have a 2 month reading period.

So we'll have until September 15th to read Oedipus the King.

Correction: I'm just going to set the read by date for Oedipus the King for Sept. 30th.

*sigh* More spam. This time in 3 threads. I've flagged them all and have removed this individual from the group.

Sandy wrote: "This autumn has thrown me some curve balls but I am still hoping to be ready to participate in reading Herodotus' The Histories beginning in January. Would someone be able to recomme..."

I'd recommend The Histories: The Landmark Herodotus absolutely! The maps are invaluable and the translation is supposed to be good.

I have ordered this book from my local library and I hope to join in. Is there going to be a reading schedule or do we just read at our own rate?

Hi Tracey! The Histories is a pretty hefty tome: it's split into 9 "Books" so I was thinking we could do 3 Books per month. 3 months is a nice pace I think we can all handle, especially since most of us are juggling several other reads in parallel.

Hi Tracey! The Histories is a pretty hefty tome: it's split into 9 "Books" so I was thinking we could do 3 Books per month. 3 months is a nice pace I think we can all handle, especially since most of us are juggling several other reads in parallel.

Kenia wrote: "Hi Tracey! The Histories is a pretty hefty tome: it's split into 9 "Books" so I was thinking we could do 3 Books per month. 3 months is a nice pace I think we can all handle, especially since most ..."

Sounds good. Looking forward to it. I homeschooled my children using the Classical method and the WTM book a lot but only got to junior high with them because of health reasons and the breakdown of my marriage. My 23 year old son is living with me and we are together going to be reading at a higher level. I am getting an education and having a chance to teach my son some of the things we missed. Thank you for setting up this group.
I will post in the introduction as well.

I've been listening to an Audible version of The Histories and now I've got The Landmark Herodotus from the library to go with it. I'm ready for this! :-)

Sorento62 wrote: "I've been listening to an Audible version of The Histories and now I've got The Landmark Herodotus from the library to go with it. I'm ready for this! :-)"

That's such a great idea to listen to it as well as to read it! Hmmm....I'm not one to read books more than once as Bauer suggests, but this seems like a good way to do it! You've got me thinkin'...

Kenia wrote: "I'm not one to read books more than once as Bauer suggests, but this seems like a good way to do it!"

I am finding The Histories uniquely difficult to soak up with true comprehension, probably because so many of the names and places are entirely unfamiliar. I think it will help me not to worry too much about full comprehension while I listen, then to be able to go back through the book to look at maps and re-read some portions.

Julie, I found Dorothy Mills The Book of the Ancient Greeks invaluable for anchoring basic Greek history and locations. I believe it's high school level but it is very comprehensive in basic sort of way, if you know what I mean. However, I've read other Greek literature so that has helped me as well and the Landmark The Histories edition has so many maps for reference that I'm able to follow along.

I am getting used to Herodotus' jumping around. He's talking about a story, then he jumps to terrain and then to customs and back again. Yet while I find it a little disjointed, it is like talking to someone which I find very refreshing. I'm quite enjoying our first historian! :-)

Hello everyone!

I'm still reading Herodotus--albeit slowly, but...while I am chugging along, I'd rather continue on with the rest of the books anyway (I can continue reading Herodotus in parallel). This group's been stalled for a while as it is...for various reasons.

Up next for us here from the chronological list is Euripides' Medea. I also see that many of you are about to embark on Plato's The Republic over at The Well-Educated Mind Histories, beginning June 1st. For that reason, I'm thinking it would be best if I stagger with the Histories group, and we'll read Medea July/August.

As always, feel free to pipe in with your thoughts! :-)

Kenia

Delaying Medea is just dandy with me. I won't be able to get to it until August, no matter how much I want to start it now.

Fine with me too.

Since I haven't got started yet, I am assuming that I should read the books in the order that you have added them to the bookshelf.

I could start making my own lists and checking off the books as I read them, but then I will get overwhelmed like I have with all my playlist on spotiify. What works good on here is to look at other people's lists and the "my rating" column will quickly tell me what books I have read already.

Bill wrote: "Since I haven't got started yet, I am assuming that I should read the books in the order that you have added them to the bookshelf...."

Hi, Bill-
Kenia had already read several of the TWEM books prior to starting this group, so the rest of us all started out "behind" in a sense. I've been reading the book the group is currently reading (which meant starting with The Histories for me), plus planning to fit in most of the past books with my other reading to "catch up". So you could just jump in with Medea since that's what we're on now. We tend to go at a slow enough pace that you should have time to gradually fit in the past books as well.
I think it works pretty well to comment on past book discussion threads. People who have read that book will often see your comment and chime in with more discussion. I believe that's what I did with Gilgamesh.

Here is a trilogy first published 1522 that looks interesting.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Vol. 1

Bill wrote: "Since I haven't got started yet, I am assuming that I should read the books in the order that you have added them to the bookshelf.

I could start making my own lists and checking off the books as ..."

Hi Bill! Sorry it took me so long to respond.... GoodReads mobile version on iPhone is frustrating to use and it takes me a few days to find a moment to get onto my laptop...

Anyway, please don't feel overwhelmed, or feel as though you "have" to read everything in order! I want the reading experience to be enjoyable for everyone, so please do read at your own pace and in whichever order you'd like: don't feel as though books we've finished are no longer up for discussion.

I encourage everyone to dive into any of the discussions on any of the books we've read at any time! :-D

After all: do we ever really "finish" reading anything?

Hello Everyone!

Being the bookworms that we are, we all have multiple reading projects going on in addition to TWEM books--there are just too many wonderful books in the world!! On top of that--life. Reading takes time and obviously we all have lives that keep us busy (family, friends, work, health, other hobbies, pets, etc., etc.). This is why I like to take the nice & easy pace of 1 book every 2 months, or 4 months for the extra long books (such as Herodotus's Histories...).

Anyway, I was planning ahead, and this is the schedule I'm proposing from now through 2018:

-On Airs, Waters, and Places, by Hippocrates: SEPT/OCT 2017
~~ break for holiday season (because...extra life insanity ensues.) ~~
-The Peloponnesian War, by Thucydides: JAN-APR
-The Birds, by Aristophanes: MAY/JUN 2018
-The Republic, by Plato: JULY/AUG 2018
-Poetics, by Aristotle: SEPT/OCT 2018
-Physics, by Aristotle: NOV/DEC 2018

I know it's a fairly slow pace but...like I said, we need space for life and for other books. And in any case, books should be relished, not rushed. ;-)

Happy reading!

That sounds like a great plan to me!

Thanks for posting the reading schedule, Kenia! It helps with my planning.
-Julie

Οοο, looks like fun!

I was wondering if anyone has seen or is interested in The Great Courses? They are not cheap but when they are on sale they are not too costly. My local library allows me to borrow so many per month and I am going to using them. Not the same as reading the great works but it helps as a starting point or to visualize.

https://www.thegreatcourses.com/categ...

I own a good number of them, Tracey, but as you said, I wouldn't use them as a substitute for the book itself. For example, I read one of their commentaries on Beowulf and believe they missed a good amount of what the poem reveals. However, I'm listening to one on Plato's Republic now (reading the book part first, then listening to the lecture) and it's helped either bring a few things to light or to expand some of the ideas. My favourite lecturer is Elizabeth Vandiver. Her courses are excellent!

This looks interesting:

History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps, podcast and books.
https://historyofphilosophy.net/

Bill wrote: "This looks interesting:

History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps, podcast and books.
https://historyofphilosophy.net/"

Sure does!

Bill wrote: "This looks interesting:

History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps, podcast and books.
https://historyofphilosophy.net/"

Yes it does look good.

Cleo wrote: "I own a good number of them, Tracey, but as you said, I wouldn't use them as a substitute for the book itself. For example, I read one of their commentaries on Beowulf and believe they missed a goo..."

I find with all learning that I have to hear it/read it/study it at least 3 times before I am making my own deductions so even if something has flaws in it, as long as I approach it knowing that all that is written/said is not necessarily as it was and keep looking, I am good with it. After all, education is an eternal journey. One lifetime is not enough to learn it all. Just enjoy and make the most of the journey is my motto. I will look out for Elizabeth Vandiver although of course, I may hate her lol. I have found also that we all learn in different ways...so the journey continues and each path leads home.

I have a question for anyone/everyone:

What are the best editions of The Iliad and The Odyssey ?

There are several out there and I would like to buy my own copies.
Thanks

Tracey wrote: "I have a question for anyone/everyone:

What are the best editions of The Iliad and The Odyssey ?

There are several out there and I would like to buy my own copies.
Thanks"

Sample a few of them and get a feel for what works with you as a reader - the flow of the different translations are very variable. Personally I am a Richmond Lattimore fan, but Fagles have been the hype for some years now.

Haaze wrote: "Tracey wrote: "I have a question for anyone/everyone:

What are the best editions of The Iliad and The Odyssey ?

There are several out there and I would like to buy my own ..."

I have the problem that my library has only 1 edition and I don't have the money to purchase several copies. That's why I thought it best just to ask what others had found. I find it extraordinary that the library system as like a zillion copies of some newest published fluff literature but next to nothing that could be called Great Literature. This is yet another reason I think we should all be collecting our own libraries.

Tracey wrote: "I have a question for anyone/everyone:

What are the best editions of The Iliad and The Odyssey ?

There are several out there and I would like to buy my own copies.
Thanks"

Lattimore all the way, but I do think after reading Lattimore, it can be enlightening to read other translations as well. I would stay away from Butler (who seemed to think he knew more about the poems than Homer) and Fagles.

Here is my go-to quote about some of the translations from a person who could read in ancient Greek and read all of them (and who's very clever too, I might add!):

For the Iliad and the Odyssey, imnsho, the only translations I have ever seen which begin to do justice to Homer are Lattimore's. Simple, unadorned, but managing in so many places to capture the feel of the original. I wish I had maintained my Greek, because the original is always better... some things just can't be translated... but Lattimore makes me catch glimpses of the real thing and has a quiet grandeur which I love.

Fitzgerald has a nice translation of the Aeneid, but his translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey are, imho, too florid.. there is too much Fitzgerald and not enough Homer. They are pretty, but way off key.

The Fagles translations repulse me. They are so colloquial, so far from Homeric that they feel more like modern adaptations than translations.

Lombardo takes even more liberties with the text - imho this is definitely more of an adaptation than a translation.

For a very literal translation (most useful if you are trying to translate Homer yourself) the Loeb editions have facing English and Greek pages and follows the word order of each Greek line as closely as possible - I wouldn't use it as a primary text, but it is a neat supplement. (Ex: "The wrath sing, goddess, of Peleus' son Achilles," )

Some people like the Rieu prose translations, and I guess they could serve as an intro to Homer, but I wouldn't use them.

Mandlebaum has a slightly clunky translation of the Odyssey - he is my translator of choice for Dante (though it was a hard choice!), but not for Homer... but, unlike most of the others it *is* a reasonably reliable translation, as I recall.

Pope's translations are an older version of what Fagles has done - an adaptation in the "translator's" own style.. pretty, but not Homer... but, imo, less grating than Fagles and less ornate than Fitzgerald... though Fitzgerald is a more reliable translator.

Butler has prose translations of Homer... pedestrian is the adjective I would apply to them. Rieu's has a little more flavor, but Butler's is sold and straightforward.... not a version I would choose, but there isn't anything *wrong* with it...

Chapman's translation is a classic in its own right, but one I would read for itself not for Homer...

Those are all of the translations I have read... or at least can remember off hand .....

Hope that helps! :-)

Cleo wrote: "Tracey wrote: "I have a question for anyone/everyone:

What are the best editions of The Iliad and The Odyssey ?

There are several out there and I would like to buy my own ..."

Yes that helps. Two of you now seem to say Lattimore. Has anyone read the new one by Caroline Alexander? The Iliad: A New Translation by Caroline Alexander

Tracey,

Here is a good article by Daniel Mendelsohn from the New Yorker which compares four different translations (same passages are shown). He shows a transliteration and then compares the same passage as translated by Lattimore, Fagles, Mitchell and, finally, Pope. You will get a feel for the debate and also for how different the outcomes are. Which one of these four "feels" best to you when you read the passage? (that is what really matters) :)
Of course, there are many more translations. One I'm curious about, but haven't yet looked at, is the one by Peter Green. It is affordable on the Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/Iliad-New-Tran...

Here is the article. Enjoy!
https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-...

Haaze wrote: "Tracey,

Here is a good article by Daniel Mendelsohn from the New Yorker which compares four different translations (same passages are shown). He shows a transliteration and then compares the same ..."

Yes that helps. I realise now that my question doesn't have a definitive answer so I will try to do some more research. In days gone by when the educated could read ancient Greek and Latin they didn't have this problem. Things definitely get lost in translation.
I have just read The Endless Steppe: Growing Up in Siberia. Esther was reading great literature at the age of 12 including Russian literature even though she did not start learning Russian until that year. Made me feel quite uneducated.

If you want to check out a number of older translations nothing beats the Delphi Classics' compilation of Homer:
https://smile.amazon.com/Delphi-Compl...

It includes (among many other works/translations) eight older translations of the Iliad:
THE ILIAD – Chapman’s Translation

THE ILIAD – Pope’s Translation

THE ILIAD – Cowper’s Translation

THE ILIAD – Butler’s Translation

THE ILIAD – Lang’s Translation

THE ILIAD – Buckley’s Translation

THE ILIAD – Derby’s Translation

THE ILIAD – Murray’s Translation

Tracey wrote: "Things definitely get lost in translation.
I have just read The Endless Steppe: Growing Up in Siberia. Esther was reading great literature at the age of 12 including Russian literature even though she did not start learning Russian until that year. Made me feel quite uneducated.."

Very true - translations are enigmatic at times. The book you just read sounds fascinating. Autobiographical I presume?

Haaze wrote: "If you want to check out a number of older translations nothing beats the Delphi Classics compilation of Homer:
https://smile.amazon.com/Delphi-Compl......"

Oh thank you. I didn't know such things existed. The prices are very resonable.

Very reasonable indeed! :)
Delphi Classics compilations are a goldmine as long as one is fine with reading ebooks. They have very few errors and the navigation within is stellar.

Tracey wrote: " In days gone by when the educated could read ancient Greek and Latin they didn't have this problem. Things definitely get lost in translation.
I have just read The Endless Steppe: Growing Up in Siberia. ..."

I think it depends on your goal. If you want to get as close to Homer as possible, read Lattimore; Lattimore used to be (or perhaps still is) the scholarly go-to. If you need a little bit of help understanding it, one could go with a more modernized version. I've even recommended Fagles (whose translation I don't like at all) for high school students, just to get their feet wet. Fagles actually does a decent "adaptation" of the poems, I just wouldn't feel like I'd actually read Homer.

Tracey wrote: "I was wondering if anyone has seen or is interested in The Great Courses? They are not cheap but when they are on sale they are not too costly. My local library allows me to borrow so many per mont..."

I think they are (mostly) great (they are "the Great Courses" after all - ha ha). Like Cleo I also found Vandivers' courses excellent. I think she has one on the Iliad, one for the Odyssey, one focusing on Classical mythology, one on Herodotus and (hmmm) one about the Greek Tragedies. It is possible that I missed one or two...
Anyways, they are fantastic for the realm of Greek History. Right now I'm actually listening to one about WWII while I'm commuting. It is very good! :)

I'm linking here to a part of Susan Wise Bauer's website that lists links to free ebooks for many of the books on this list. Figured it would be helpful for those trying to save a bit of money!

Here you go!

Woo hoo! Thanks, Kendra! This is great! :-)