Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion
This topic is about
The Guermantes Way
The Guermantes Way
>
Week ending 06/14: The Guermantes Way, to page 631 / location 25253
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
Renato
(last edited May 11, 2014 09:29AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
May 11, 2014 08:50AM
Mod
reply
|
flag
Didn't someone say somewhere that a lot of people never read further than The Guermantes Way? For me, this week's reading is supporting that statement. I'm so BORED with all of this high society, drawing room, political sashaying stuff. :(
Mod
This isn't still Mme de Villeparisis' party from the 5/17 reading is it?
No. Sadly, we finally left that party and then immediately went to a completely different one. This whole volume has felt like one big (boring) party. LOL!
Wait till you get to "Sodom and Gomorrah", that's where it really got painful and that I decided to take a break. That break lasted more than ten years, until I finally got the fortitude to pick up the book again and finish it. Hope it doesn't happen to you.
Oh, no! I was somehow hoping that volume would get us out of this party rut...
Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Oh, no! I was somehow hoping that volume would get us out of this party rut..."It will! It will take you from Charybdis to Scylla!
:) Out of the frying pan... and into the fire?
Sunny in Wonderland wrote: ":) Out of the frying pan... and into the fire?"Something like that. But perhaps it's just me...
Well, even if it goes from bad to worse, I will still finish this book. I WILL FINISH THIS BOOK. (I am hoping to convince only myself here.) I will not be beaten by Proust. I want to know what happens at the end that prompts Proustians to say the clues were there all along and they want to start over reading it again right away. Now, I'm not saying I will re-read it. I just can't commit to that. But, I will at the very least read the full story once.
Yes, it is true that you might want to read it all over again. After that first hurdle, that's exactly what I did. You won't regret it.
Be brave folks, be very, very brave! According to my ebook 21% (70%-91%) of this volume is about the Guermantes dinner party which our hero attends. Having finished this part, I feel a sense of satisfaction not unlike what it must be like having swam the English channel. But be of good cheer, there is some fun here! Spoiler alert, I want to give you hope, but don't read if you want keep the "page-turning suspense" of your Proustian adventure.- Our hero gets to see the Elistirs he has been scheming to see. In fact he is left alone with them "out of respect". He spends so much time he keeps everyone waiting for 45 minutes for dinner.
- In a scene out of the Marx Brother, as the Duc introduces our hero to the cream of Parisian Society, no one has a clue who he is but by their unalterable faith in the Duchesses infallible taste, they are convinced he is very important/interesting and so must be cultivated.
- And then the Duchesses has our hero escort her into dinner - and the endless self-licking ice-cream-cone of trivial blather begins. The names aren't important, the titles aren't important - rather they are only important self-important to the aristocrats in a society that has been a Republic for 50 years. It takes longer to read this than it would to eat a formal dinner.
- And so the dinner winds down, the rising of the Princess de Paume from the table acts as "a deliverance", and everyone heads for the door.
- As our hero rides away in his carriage he thinks to himself "surely these people don't get all dressed up and go to these dinner parties to talk of such trivialities- that would just be too absurd!"
I see one of Proust's messages here as an answer to the question above - Why yes they did, and still do today. That's what make Proust so wonderful for me - He so wonderfully captures the Human Comedy.
- Meanwhile, our hero is headed over to see Baron de Charlus - run away Marcel, run away!
Mod
I've just finished this week's reading and I kinda agree with you Sunny, although for me it's only been the last 50 pages or so, since the narrator returned from viewing the Elstir paintings, that it's been turgid...I just don't care that much about the differences in the social etiquette between the Courvoisiers and the Guermantes. I hope that the narrative will return to the dinner party itself and we can get on with some dialogue, à la Mme Villeparisis' do.
Given that the narrator has finally got his nose into the Guermantes' salon I wonder how long it will be before he's disillusioned by it all? - I think Dave's post above hints towards it being soon...
Mod
When St-Loup arrives at the point of the narrator's crying fit, he says that friendship falls 'half-way between fatigue and boredom' though he admits it can be useful - I guess he'd rather be romping with the Balbec gang. However, he seems more positive about the benefits of friendship after St-Loup's stunt of clambering over the furniture at the restaurant with a cape for the sickly narrator.
I liked the bit about entering the restaurant on his own: '...it was my misfortune to have to enter the place on my own.' He gets trapped in the revolving door, to the disdain of the staff, he then sits in the wrong place, gets moved around by the waiters. I find this amusing as I never know what to do when I enter an unknown café or restaurant - the etiquette is always different and yet one is expected to know what it is. A similar thing happens with me over keys/locks when staying at a hotel or as a guest somewhere. I'm always amazed at how door locks & keys can be made in so many different ways - sometimes they totally flummox me. And others wonder what sort of idiot doesn't know how to use a key!...maybe it's just me!
Mod
Jonathan wrote: "Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Didn't someone say somewhere that a lot of people never read further than The Guermantes Way? For me, this week's reading is supporting that statement. I'm so BORED wi..."Jonathan, I "passed over lightly" the whole Courvoisiers vs Guermantes distinction. I gather, like you, it had to do with one-upmanship in aesthetic taste. The main thing I got out of the Duchesses dinner party was more development of the characters of the Duc and Duchess, that they were in a loveless marriage, that the Duc had mistresses, and the Duchess was painfully aware of these mistresses. There were plenty of comedy moments -for example, The Duchess was going to wear " nothing at all" to the Greek Minister's party ( meaning she wasn't going to the party) and and the shock that the Duchesses would miss a good portion of the season to go on a cruise to the Norwegian Fiords.
Jonathan wrote: "I thought the first half of this week's reading was as good as anything else in this volume, i.e. St-Loup's arrival and their visit to the restaurant. When St-Loup arrives at the point of the nar..."
I liked his encounter with the revolving door - reminded me of his first encounter with the telephone. Like you Jonathan, I've had some anxious encounters with new technology. I also liked how the proprietor was insolent to the narrator until he learned of Saint Loup's affection - then he became fawning.
Mod
I hope that the dinner party will start in earnest in next week's reading. I guess Proust is just giving us the background info with all this detail of the nobility. Is Proust deliberately highlighting how antiquated the nobility were?
To me the most significant thing about the restaurant was the disclosure about St Loup and his friends. I don't have page numbers, but the passage begins "The Prince de Foix, who was rich already, belonged not only to this fashionable set of fifteen young men, but to a more exclusive and inseparable group which included Saint Loup." This goes on for a paragraph which includes a very intriguing sentence which begins "A fifth (for in these groups of four there are never four only) had joined this Platonic party..." This disclosure gives the reader inside knowledge which sets up lots of dramatic irony about when this disclosure will become known. Halfway through next volume I'm still waiting.
Mod
Yes,the sudden change in the waiter's attitude once he realises that the narrator is with St-Loup is brilliant. It reminds me a bit of Monty Python's dirty fork sketch.
Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Jonathan, I "passed over lightly" the whole Courvoisiers vs Guermantes distinction. I gather, like you, it had to do with one-upmanship in aesthetic taste. The main thing I got out of ..."I mentioned in a previous post on this week how much of the second half of this volume was taken up with this dinner party. As I interpret the reading schedule, that is all the weeks of the 14th and 21st. The reading for the 28th begins at 89% to the finish.
I interpret this dinner party as the climax of this volume. Proust is clearly not an advocate for these people and their vapid self-absorbtion. At times I feel only an animated movie could approach capturing the lunacy - a Parisian Mad Hatter's Tea Party.
Mod
I think I'll re-read the restaurant scene again this week as I think there's more in it than I originally thought. One thing, is that the narrator wanted to talk to St-Loup about Charlus but they didn't get round to it. Also, what does St-Loup know about his uncle?
Also, why are the Guermantes both interested in the narrator now? Are they trying to warn him of Charlus? Why doesn't Charlus want the narrator to go to the Guermantes? Is it because he thinks they'll convince the narrator not to see him?
Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "To me the most significant thing about the restaurant was the disclosure about St Loup and his friends. I don't have page numbers, but the passage begins "The Prince de Foix, who was r..."You raise excellent questions Jonathan. We should revisit them in future weeks when we gain insight into each one.
Jonathan wrote: "Proust keeps on mentioning Saint-André-des-Champs. Is it a real place or based on a real place?"Short answer: Not a real place.
Long answer: Remember the passage...where Théodore and Françoise were "seen" in the statues at Saint-André-des-Champ?
They embodied the spirit of Saint-André...and represent the "continuing and unchanging" strong peasants, who live on the land~France.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7nV5...
"Proust and the Middle Ages" By Richard Bales (p 87)
Now, I read (somewhere/in Illiers-Combray) that the NAME may have originated from the nearby Notre-Dame-des-Champs in Chateaudun, France. An ancient church...this is all that is left:
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mis...
-- https://translate.google.com/translat...
The STATUES that Proust described are generally thought to have inspired by:
Saint-Loup-de-Naud (http://mappinggothic.org/building/1226)
and
Chartres Cathedral (http://mappinggothic.org/building/1107).
Saint-Loup-de-Naud
Saint-Loup-de-Naud
and...
Chartres Cathedral
/>Chartres Cathedral
Mod
Thanks beaucoup for the photos, Marcelita.Last night after nearly a whole day reading I finally polished off Guermantes Way. Fascinating how Proust talks about the characteristics of the various aristocrats and families, linking them back through the centuries. Especially as now in his time the monarchy is gone and all that had been accruing over those centuries would soon count for nothing as the new secular(3rd)republic was being installed and French society was being totally reconstructed. (Though many apparently still hoped for a return to monarchy even then)
Thought I would mention a book I'm reading right now that I think has been a great enrichment to my reading this time around. "FOR THE SOUL OF FRANCE: Culture wars in the Age of Dreyfus." By Frederick Brown
I have had it around for quite a while and finally got going on it. I recommend it for great background understanding. A lot more than just the Dreyfus Affair is covered. I'm sure you could find some reviews to check out if you are interested.
Have a great day all!
Mod
The Frederick Brown book looks interesting, I'll add it to my TBR list. The author is a biographer of Zola of course...another book I intend to read somewhen.
So, Jonathon and all, I just saw that the group is about to start a read of The Dreyfus Affair on the 14th and lucky for me I was able to order it from my library and should get it here in less than a week. Too bad I wasn't paying better attention earlier, eh? Are lots of folks into this? I will do my best, although I already have lots on my plate.
Mod
Jonathan wrote: "Oh wow! Thanks for all the pics Marcelita! And I guess Robert was named after Saint-Loup-de-Nard as well?"And...the NAME "Robert?"
Maybe named after his brother or friends?
Robert Proust
Robert de Billy
Robert de Flers
"One of these, an amusing parody of Flaubert's comic novel Bouvard and Pécuchet, was dedicated to “my three dear Roberts” (his brother and friends Robert de Flers and Robert de Billy).
William C. Carter
http://books.google.com/books?id=SDZj...
Proust traveled, with a group of his friends (maybe even Robert de Billy), to see Saint Loup-de-Naud for his Ruskin research.
"At Saint Loup-de-Naud, the group studied one of the oldest churches in the Parisian region. [...] The portal under the western porch, like the royal porch of Chartres Cathedral, features Christ in majesty surrounded by the symbols of the Evangelists.
Perhaps the most admirable statue, as befitted the church’s namesake, was the one representing Saint-Loup, archbishop of Sens, who died in 623. Proust remembered this name when he created the character Robert de Saint-Loup."
William C. Carter's "Marcel Proust: A Life"
http://books.google.com/books?id=SDZj...
"The relics of St-Loup, Archbishop of Sens, who was said to have died in 623, were fought over for more than three centuries."
Five Centuries of Religion - Page 147
http://books.google.com/books?id=mJA4...
In the weeds, but knowing how precise Proust was in choosing places and names, it is not surprising he would choose this noble saint:
Story of Saint Loup
French:
http://www.abbaye-saint-benoit.ch/vor...
English:
https://translate.google.com/translat...
French:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loup_de_...
English:
http://translate.google.com/translate...
I smiled, when I noticed who built 102 Boulvard Haussmann!
( Photo by MS)
Mod
Since the early days of the narrator’s obsession with Oriane I’ve been waiting for him to finally visit her salon, but I have to say it was a bit anti-climatic for me as well, as the whole Courvoisiers vs. Guermantes distinction felt a bit endless. The visit started off in a high note for me with the portion where he was left alone with Elstir’s paintings and lost track of time, and how the Duc went out of his way to cover up the fact that everyone had been waiting for him so the dinner could start.
What I really wanted from his visit to the Guermantes salon - and that we also didn’t get from his previous visit to Mme. de Villeparisis, although there were dialogues transcriptions from that occasion - was to see how he would be and how he would interact with all of those people, how he would insert himself on the conversations, if he would come off as smart, what people would think of him.
I wonder if the fact that he chooses to write these salon gatherings from that perspective (analyzing the people instead as individuals and writing about them other than the meeting itself and dialogues) means he’s making a criticism and that he finds those types of meetings tedious…
I wonder how Proust handled himself in these situations, if he was quiet analyzing everything on his head like the narrator, or if he would interact and give his opinions on writers and paintings etc.
Mod
It could be... but why would they even care about the narrator in the first place? Why would they bother to warn him of Charlus?
Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Also, why are the Guermantes both interested in the narrator now? Are they trying to warn him of Charlus? Why doesn't Charlus want the narrator to go to the Guermantes? Is it becau..."I've spent some time rooting around earlier in the volume to try and figure why the Guermantes took a liking to the narrator. As best I can figure it starts with the narrator's father says this: "Old Norpois told me that Mme. de Villeparisis had taken quite a fancy to you, and that you would meet all sorts of interesting people in her house. He paid a great tribute to you; you will see him if you go there, and he may have some good advice for you even if you are going to be a writer. "
- Then when the narrator is at Mme. Villeparisis', she invites him to dinner in front of her niece the Duchess. The narrator declines because he is chasing Mme Stermaria and has obligations with his parents. Mme de Villeparisis says something like -Oh, you are a hard one to get hold of and walks away. Then the Duchess invites him to dinner at her house.
- I interpret the Duchesses motivation as "trumping" her aunt socially by getting someone to come to dinner whom her aunt could not catch. This starts the comedy ball rolling that continues at the Duchesses house -no one knows who he is, but he must be important because others think so highly of him.
-This delicious comedy seems to confirm the old saying, "its not what you know, its who you know.
Renato wrote: "I enjoyed this week’s reading with Saint-Loup’s appearance and everything that went down on the restaurant - as you guys already mentioned -, such as: the narrator’s encounter with the revolving do..."I've come to the conclusion that the narrator's role is more often like a camera in social settings. He speaks rarely and usually only when spoken to. His "contribution" is his interior monologue describing and explaining. He's smart, but we have almost no knowledge of his education. We have no description of what he looks like that I can remember. Although I may be suppose to separate author and narrator, I have given up on that and in my mind's eye he looks like the pictures of Proust I have seen.
Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Also, why are the Guermantes both interested in the narrator now? Are they trying to warn him of Charlus? Why doesn't Charlus want the narrator to go to the Guermantes? Is it becau..."I believe they warn him out of a vague sense of social obligation. They all know Charlus'' reputation" and by warning the narrator vaguely to avoid him, they can feel like the "did all that they could." I can relate to this, I went to boarding school and received this type of warning about certain members of the faculty. I took the advice and avoided those mentioned. But then my life would never be considered a masterpiece of literature, so we shall see how our narrator copes.
Mod
You're a wonderful addition to our group. I'm glad you joined us!
Thank you Renato, its great to have others to talk to about Proust. Given Proust's rapture of the telephone, I can only imagine the mythic and artistic references and raptures he might write about the Internet! Oh, I also meant to mention that there is apparently a significant quote about friendship back right before or at the beginning of the restaurant scene. I have not gone back to look for it.
Mod
"I, pretending that I could not see very well as I held out my plate, while she helped me to potatoes, took her bare fore-arm in my hand, as though to guide her. Seeing that she did not withdraw it, I began to fondle it, then, without saying a word, pulled her bodily to me, blew out the candles and told her to feel in my pocket for some money. For the next few days physical pleasure seemed to me to require, to be properly enjoyed, not only this servant but the timbered dining-room, so remote and lonely."
I see he enjoyed his stay in Doncières far more than we had suspected it ;)
Thanks Renato, I've been meaning to look that episode up also. A fun, youthful "roll in the hay", but for me it only served as a foil to his inability to have "emotionally mature" relationships with women.
Mod
I was just looking for it as well (I wanted to quote a smaller section but everything he said was very interesting):
"I have already said (as a matter of fact, it was Robert himself who, at Balbec, had helped me, quite without meaning it, to arrive at this conclusion) what I think about friendship: to wit that it is so small a thing that I find it hard to understand how men with some claim to genius—Nietzsche, for instance—can have been such simpletons as to ascribe to it a certain intellectual value, and consequently to deny themselves friendships in which intellectual esteem would have no part. Yes, it has always been a surprise to me to find a man who carried sincerity towards himself to so high a pitch as to cut himself off, by a scruple of conscience, from Wagner's music, imagining that the truth could ever be attained by the mode of expression, naturally vague and inadequate, which our actions in general and acts of friendship in particular furnish, or that there could be any kind of significance in the fact of one's leaving one's work to go and see a friend and shed tears with him on hearing the false report that the Louvre was burned. I had got so far, at Balbec, as to find that the pleasure of playing with a troop of girls is less destructive of the spiritual life, to which at least it remains alien, than friendship, the whole effort of which is directed towards making us sacrifice the one real and (save by the channel of art) incommunicable part of ourself to a superficial self which finds—not, like the other, any joy in itself, but rather a vague, sentimental attraction in the feeling that it is being supported by external props, hospitably entertained by a strange personality, through which, happy in the protection that is afforded it there, it makes its own comfort radiate in warm approval, and marvels at qualities which it would denounce as faults and seek to correct in itself. Moreover the scorners of friendship can, without illusion and not without remorse, be the finest friends in the world, just as an artist carrying in his brain a masterpiece and feeling that his duty is rather to live and carry on his work, nevertheless, so as not to be thought or to run the risk of actually being selfish, gives his life for a vain cause, and gives it all the more gallantly in that the reasons for which he would have preferred not to give it were disinterested. But whatever might be my opinion of friendship, to mention only the pleasure that it procured me, of a quality so mediocre as to be like something halfway between physical exhaustion and mental boredom, there is no brew so deadly that it cannot at certain moments, become precious and invigorating by giving us just the stimulus that was necessary, the warmth that we cannot generate in ourselves."
Thanks Renato, I remember reading it, I just didn't highlight it. Not sure why, I highlight most of every page with 4 different colors! lol
Dave wrote: "Be brave folks, be very, very brave! According to my ebook 21% (70%-91%) of this volume is about the Guermantes dinner party which our hero attends. Having finished this part, I feel a sense of sat..."That's what I found delicious about reading the party scenes. They demystify that notion of the "Fabourg St. Germain salon" that plagues french literature. It seems that is one of Proust hidden agendas with this novel-by depicting the reunion sans flourishes of any kind the reader gets the impression that they are nothing but a bunch of old fashioned bores.
Also is it me of does Proust loves a "mirror" type of plot. Ex. St. Loup & Rachael/Swann & Odette, [SPOILER] St. Loup beating an homosexual while being gay himself/Charlus beating an homosexual. Which is kind of funny when one notices how Proust is always talking about how we always forget the past concerning art appreciation.
