Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all The Fugitive discussions through page 783 / location 48700.

What's this? Our narrator, Marcel, looks like Andrée with a moustache!

If I had not long since ceased to shave my upper lip and had had only a faint shadow of a moustache, this resemblance would have been almost complete.

After the narrator's talk with Andrée he reasons that because Andrée admits she likes women but isn't attracted to Albertine sexually and didn't have carnal relations with her, therefore Albertine couldn't have had carnal relations with any other woman. Is he subscribing to the theory that a lesbian would want to have sex with every other woman and therefore if, in this case Albertine, doesn't want to have sex with one woman she therefore didn't want to have sex with any women? He seems to be assuaged though.

Ha! Wishful thinking on the Narrator's part I suspect. Andree was close to Albertine (even if only as a friend) in a way that could never be.

Keep going, Andree, like the ghost in A Christmas Carol, pays him three visits.

Dave wrote: "Ha! Wishful thinking on the Narrator's part I suspect. Andree was close to Albertine (even if only as a friend) in a way that could never be."

In this part he seems happy enough to believe this, though he must realise that he's being lied to.

Normally I've commented after I've finished the week's reading, but for some reason I started commenting as I'm reading this week.

Following this section the narrator casually mentions himself eavesdropping on two 'laundry-girls' (do these girls ever do any actual laundry?) in 'pleasuring themselves'...just another day in our narrator's life. :-)

Yes, laundry girls....er. washing, yes washing, thats what they are doing! Exactly what they were washing is left to discretion of the reader's imagination. Ha!

I was really surprised that the narrator didn't recognise Gilberte especially as he starts to lust after her; but is that just because he thinks she's a tart?

He can't help lusting after these sexually active and independent girls and then agonising over their sexual activities and independence.

Jonathan wrote: "I was really surprised that the narrator didn't recognise Gilberte especially as he starts to lust after her; but is that just because he thinks she's a tart?

He can't help lusting after these sex..."

Before I respond Jonathan, can you say where they were when he did not recognize her?

Dave wrote: "Before I respond Jonathan, can you say where they were when he did not recognize her? "

This is the beginning of chapter two, 'Mademoiselle de Forcheville'; he sees the three girls and the blonde girl looks at him as she walks by. There's the mix up with the names and when he meets her at the Guermantes he doesn't recognise her when she's introduced as Mlle de Forcheville.

When reading this I kept thinking 'surely he must recognise her' but I know myself that people greet me, that apparently know me, but I haven't a clue who they are.

I was surprised also, perhaps not that he didn't recognize her but that he didn't know her by name if not face. Although we only "see" events episodically in brief periods of various time length, I would assume that even if he did not get out much he would "keep track off" people he knew through gossip.

I would like to get you and Renato's permission to paste in here a page of text from volume two that gives significant insight into the first part of Volume VI which you have just finished.

The content of the text is not a spoiler, it just is a strong example of the insight to be gained in rereading. I'm interested to know what you folks make of the section you just read in light of this quote. I'll be out this evening, but I'll wait for both of you to respond.

That's ok with me Dave...post it! Have a good evening.

I'm just starting this week's read! Dave, do post it, I'll come back to share my comments after I'm finished!

The context is that after starting to regularly meet Gilberte in the Park each day and eventually meeting Odette, Marcel gets seriously ill for a period of time and is housebound. After he is well, he comes to the Swann home to see Gilberte. She is out, but Odette mentions that perhaps he could come to tea with Gilberte. A week or two later he gets his first letter from Gilberte inviting him to tea. He is reflecting in an interior monologue on the receipt of the letter. He thinks on for about a half a page and then, without a paragraph break, the text contines as:

"....In any case, it is best not to inquire into how life, with all its contrasting developments, can impinge upon our love: the laws that govern such things, whether their workings are inexorable or just unexpected, seem to be those of magic rather than of rationality. When a woman who is plain and without money of her own leaves a multimillionaire with whom she has been living, a man of charm despite his wealth, and when he in his despair summons up all the powers of his wealth and sets in motion all the influences of this world, but fails to get her to come back to him, rather than seeking a logical explanation, it is better to assume, in the face of the willful mistress’s resolve, that Destiny wishes to crush him and make him die of a broken heart. The obstacles against which such a lover has to struggle, and which his imagination, overstimulated by suffering, tries vainly to identify, may lie in a singularity of character of the wayward woman, in her stupidity, in the influence now exercised on her by people whom the lover does not know, in fears they may have put into her mind, in appetites she is briefly bent on satisfying, which may be of the sort that her lover, with all his fortune, cannot satisfy. Moreover, the lover who seeks to know the nature of such obstacles is handicapped: the woman’s guile will hide it from him; and his own judgment, biased by his love, prevents him from assessing it accurately. Obstacles of this kind are like tumors that a doctor may succeed at last in reducing without ever knowing what caused them: though temporary, they remain mysterious. However, such obstacles generally last longer than love. And as love is not a disinterested passion, the erstwhile lover no longer strives to find out why, in her need and obstinacy, the flighty woman whom he once loved declined for years to let him go on keeping her. In love, it is not only the causes of catastrophe that may lie forever beyond our grasp: just as often we remain in ignorance of the whys and wherefores of sudden outcomes that are happier— such as the one that Gilberte’s letter brought to me— or, rather, outcomes which appear to be happy, as there are few truly happy outcomes in the life of a feeling, which can generally look for no better reward than a shift in the site of the pain it entails. At times, however, a temporary remission is granted, and for a while one may have the illusion of being cured."

This is Penguin translation.

Interesting. Are you coming across many passages on your second reading that seem to refer to later parts of the novel? I know that whilst reading it there have been passages where the narrator appears to be referring to some particular event but is clouded in ambiguity.

I've heard other readers mention that there are two distinct narrators, an old and young narrator. Do you see this? I don't really notice this when I'm reading but there may be something in it.

Your comment is interesting Jonathan. When Renato weighs in we can discuss this some more.

I've felt a couple of times that there were two narrators in the story. One that works as if he was narrating things as they happen - the actual actions -, and other, wiser, that offers commentary on the matters discussed, like he's trying to defend his younger self of some of his absurdities. And it seems this older one also links between the events in the entire novel - as he's already seen the big picture.

I like this theory because sometimes it explains (to me) how the narrator can be, at the same time, emotionally like a child and then have so much interesting inputs about life, love, philosophy etc.. How can he be so astute and yet emotionally stupid...

Renato wrote: "I've felt a couple of times that there were two narrators in the story. One that works as if he was narrating things as they happen - the actual actions -, and other, wiser, that offers commentary ..."

I've only noticed it vaguely. Is it so clear to you that you can pinpoint when it switches back and forth?

Jonathan, yes there are other, in fact many, sections like this. I'm only in volume two but I've become aware of a number already. I'm sure that there are others that I still don't notice. This quote is the longest I've noticed. It stands out because I was so perplexed by the first section of Volume VI.

I remember we had some discussion of the two narrator idea last Spring. Like you, I really don't notice it when I read.

There are a number of things we can discuss about the quote. Most are more appropriate after we finish. Rather I wanted to place the quote here to make a point about rereading. My focus here is on not how it was done but just that it was done. I read with high comprehension. On my first read I read and listened simultaneously, which encourages higher comprehension. Yet I have absolutely no memory of the quote. Why should I, it "appears" to be just a generic example. I had a tendency to pay little attention to such sections because, like Renato, I didn't find it credible that a teenager would have such thoughts. When I came to the quote a second time I was stunned. Why we can get into later. But if I didn't reread, there is no way I could start "connecting the dots" between such sections to see for myself what the book is about.

It is not that clear to me, Jonathan, and I'm not even sure this theory is right. As we'll go on with our reading, I'll post about it if I come across any clear example.

It's all very confusing as to that we are actually reading... for a long time I believed this was all a book being written by the narrator. But Dave told us he's not working on his novel. Then I began to think that this is an older person remembering his past and planning to write a novel from it, but changing things here and there as he considers the plots in his head... doesn't even make sense, I know!

I've often also wondered if the narrator was in his deathbed thinking about all the events that happened in his life and regretting that he never actually got to write his novel and was trying to "regain time" by thinking how it would go if he had written it...

I can go on and on with crazy theories, but I'm trying to refrain from it and just be surprised by whatever the big white rabbit is!

On the content of the quote I would note a few things:

- How bitter, cynical, and pessimistic it is about love and all happy circumstance (at beginning and end) and the unresolved deep anger toward the unnamed mistress by the unnamed multimillionaire displayed by all the name calling (plain, stupid etc).
- The quote lays out the events in Part I of Vol VI more concisely than anything I remember from Vol VI, but it does so unreliably from the male perspective.
- The quote leaves out one key point in relating events in Vol Vi, the death of the mistress. I have a reason for this "oversight" that should be discussed at the end.

Renato wrote: "I've often also wondered if the narrator was in his deathbed thinking about all the events that happened in his life and regretting that he never actually got to write his novel and was trying to "..."

Good choice Renato, don't fight it, just relax and let the Proustian elixir drip into your soul word by word. Soon you will be finished with your first round of treatment and you will be howling at the Moon with Proust's "little clan." Happy early Halloween!

Dave wrote: "On the content of the quote I would note a few things:

- How bitter, cynical, and pessimistic it is about love and all happy circumstance (at beginning and end) and the unresolved deep anger towar..."

I'm on next week's scheduled reading and have just finished the part where the narrator is musing on love after Andrée's visit; I won't post too much here but it is quite bleak concerning love: Lying is essential to humanity', all choices in love are bad, to have loved Albertine was to know all her hideousness etc.

He, he, Proust is like the Bible in that you can quote him out of context to support any position in an argument. It would not take long to rifle through the pages and quote rapturous flights of ecstacy about love for Mamma, Grandma, Gilberte, Odette, the little band, Albertine, Mlle. Srermaria and Baroness Putbus' maid.

You are moving right along in your reading Jonathan.

Dave wrote: "You are moving right along in your reading Jonathan."

Yes, Renato and I have decided to carry on with the rest of the volume. It will take me a couple more days probably as I'm a slow reader anyway and I'll be working as well. The fact that the end of vol.6 is split into chapters didn't fit with the schedule either. I'm at least going to finish ch.2 tonight. Ch.2 sure has a lot of revelations!

Jonathan wrote: "Ch.2 sure has a lot of revelations!" Very true indeed. There is rich ground for discussion in this part.

Looking back, from where you are to the end was easier for me. A lot of revelations indeed, but I felt the text kept moving.

I was just having another look at the meeting between the narrator and Andrée at the end of ch.1. The narrator is now viewing Andrée through Albertine's eyes, he finds her attractive. But didn't he find her the most attractive of the band of girls anyway?

The narrator is wearing her down with his inquisition. She doesn't admit to having a sexual relationship with Albertine though.

I am confused about where you are quoting from in the book Jonathan. Consulting my Spaulding Guide, the three visits she pays to Marcel after Albertine leaves are spread across 100 pages, each is different in what she says (the revalations are not progressive). But I thought all the visits occurred in the first part of of The Fugitive.

I was reading the Penguin version and near the end of ch.1 came across this quote:

The problem with people is that for us they are no more than prints in our mental museum, which fade on exposure.

As I like marking quotes that I like, I wondered why I hadn't noticed that quote on my first read, which was the MKE translation. Here it is:

It is the tragedy of other people that they are merely showcases for the very perishable collections of one's own mind.

No wonder it didn't stand out, the Penguin version is much better. The original French is:

C'est le malheur des êtres de n'être pour nous que des planches de collections fort usables dans notre pensée.

With my very limited French it looks like the MKE version is a more literal translation unfortunately.

I agree, the Penguin seems more to the point in the Penguin translation.

Unfortunately, due to US copyright law, the last three volumes of Penguin cannot be sold in the US until 2017. I tried buying them on Amazon UK but it said they could not be sold to a U S account or something.

I am reading "around in" the last part of The Fugitive to refresh my memory to discuss it. I may read the last volume again with you folks -I don't feel I read the last volume as closely as I should.

Dave wrote: "I am reading "around in" the last part of The Fugitive to refresh my memory to discuss it. I may read the last volume again with you folks -I don't feel I read the last volume as closely as I should. "

I'm having the same feeling and that's on the parts that I've just read. :-) Ch.2 had a lot of info in it and I read through it quite fast (for me). Now I'm trying to process it all and make sense of it.

Actually, since the MKE Version TOC lists V and VI Volumes together, I've resorted to going to he end of The Fugitive and reading backward paragraph by paragraph. Surprising, in rereading, this seemed to work fine.

I mentioned to Marcelita, that when I reread that I felt certain that Proust had written the book in a way that required rereading to understand. Now, near the end of The Fugitive, a paragraph begins "Yet another mistake which any young reader not acquainted with the facts might have been led to make was..." and the paragraph ends on the next page with "...the better informed reader knows,..."

That definitely looks like reference to rereading to me.

Dave wrote: "Actually, since the MKE Version TOC lists V and VI Volumes together, I've resorted to going to he end of The Fugitive and reading backward paragraph by paragraph. Surprising, in rereading, this see..."

"...the better informed reader knows,..."

Alas, re-reading places neon-flashing lights on this and other "errors of non-editing." We could all have photographic memories and this will still be a surprise.

Thanks for the correction Marcelita!

Dave wrote: "The context is that after starting to regularly meet Gilberte in the Park each day and eventually meeting Odette, Marcel gets seriously ill for a period of time and is housebound. After he is well,..."

When I read this passage originally, I hadn't even noticed that it seemed to be referencing another relationship. Interesting.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Dave wrote: "The context is that after starting to regularly meet Gilberte in the Park each day and eventually meeting Odette, Marcel gets seriously ill for a period of time and is housebound. Afte..."

I doubt if anyone notices Sunny. Its not just the content that interests me, but the placement of the material - just at the beginning of his first love it gives the summary of the end of his relationshipwith his last love.

That's one of the reasons I want to re-read it!