Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all The Fugitive discussions through page 860 / location 49710.

Chapter 2 has to be one of the most densely packed sections of ISOLT as it has so much info and revelations. I'm surely going to have to re-read this at some point.

So we get to see the narrator at lunch with the Guermantes and Gilberte Swann or G S Forcheville, which was simply unheard of whilst Swann was alive. I guess it's more palatable now that her new name is not tainted.

A bit of additional info I liked finding out was that the name Swann was supposed to have English roots.

I'm intrigued to know who Sanilon is - he wrote a letter to the narrator congratulating him on his article in Figaro.

I liked the bit where the narrator thinks of Bergotte reading his article...we're thinking 'but he's dead isn't he?'...only for it to be revealed that the narrator had dreamt it. Is Proust playing with the reader here? I like to think so.

Why do the Guermantes stop the narrator commenting on Swann when he looks at Elstir's paintings? I'm not really sure about this. Is it just that any talk of Swann may lead to Gilberte's mother?

I guess it's the conversations between the narrator and Andrée that are most revealing. I don't really get the way that Proust deals with the syringa incident, because it's certainly a revelation to the narrator when Andrée explains what was going on but when it was first mentioned in The Captive he explains to us roughly what had gone on; so it was no real surprise to us the reader.

I wonder if Proust would have got rid of this partial revelation early on if he'd had the chance to revise the text.

What was the syringa incident Jonathan?

Dave wrote: "What was the syringa incident Jonathan?"

Where the narrator returned home with a bunch of syringa and caught Albertine & Andrée acting odd, they said they found the flowers overpowering but they'd been 'playing around' in his absence.

Ah, OK, I remember now. For me this is the kind of information that prejudices the reader to believe Albertine's "inclination" which the text never proves convincingly. How do we know they were fooling around? The narrator's impression I believe. When he meets Andre in the next volume she admits this in one meeting (or at least admits his suspicions are true) and then denies them in another meeting. This makes anything she says and her motives suspect.

It's true that there's an element of doubt; even the narrator wonders whether this revelation is in fact the lie - he suspects that Andrée may be making it up when they're involved in their 'semi-carnal relations' as the narrator has let it slip that he's turned on by making love to a woman that has made love to Albertine. I'm sure there are more twists and turns to come.

My quote of the week:

Lying is essential to humanity. It plays as large a part perhaps as the quest for pleasure, and is moreover governed by that quest. One lies in order to protect one's pleasure, or one's honour if the disclosure of one's pleasure runs counter to one's honour. One lies all one's life long, even, especially, perhaps only, to those who love one. For they alone make us fear for our pleasure and desire their esteem.

I also liked the last sentence of chapter two:

Truth and life are very difficult to fathom, and I retained of them, without really having got to know them, an impression in which sadness was perhaps actually eclipsed by exhaustion.

He sounds weary.

That is a great quote.

Do the Chapters have titles in the Penguin Edition? In my ebook Moncrieff they are titled but there is no TOC. In the MKE Ebook there are no parts or chapters for Volumes V and VI so I'm having a hard time figuring out what you have read. About all I remember of what I call Part Two of The Fugitive, is the social scene where Marcel meets Mme. Forcheville. Respecting Renato's reading progress, have you read anything about Saint Loup yet? Are there three or four chapters in your edition?

I don't know if it helps Dave but my Vintage edition (which is the MKE translation and should be similar to the Modern Library edition available in the US) is as follows:
The Captive: pp1-559
The Fugitive: p561
Ch1: Grieving and Forgetting, p563-751
Ch2: Mademoiselle de Forcheville, p753-843
Ch3: Sojourn in Venice, p844-889
Ch4: New Aspect of Robert de Saint-Loup, p891-936

Thanks Jonathan, My MKE ebook has those titles but no TOC to link to them. I paged back through from the end to the beginning of Chapter Two. I had merged some of Chapter Two with Chapter One in my memory. Now I'm oriented to where you are at now. Hopefully I can keep it sorted out in my mind.

Jonathan wrote: "A bit of additional info I liked finding out was that the name Swann was supposed to have English roots.

I'm intrigued to know who Sanilon is - he wrote a letter to the narrator congratulating hi..."

Who Sanilon is is explained in a footnote to the book "Proust in Love" by William Carter. The link below takes you to the page. He is also mentioned in "Time Regained". No spoiler, this is very obscure.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UnG0...

I've reread Chapters Two and Four of "The Fugitive." Again, I am amazed at what I "see" the second time around. I agree with you Jonathan, there is a lot more to Chapter Two than I remember.

Jonathan wrote: "Why do the Guermantes stop the narrator commenting on Swann when he looks at Elstir's paintings? I'm not really sure about this. Is it just that any talk of Swann may lead to Gilberte's mother?"

They stop him because Gilberte is deliberately trying to cover/ignore the fact that she is Swann's daughter because she believes now that her stepfather adopted her and she has his name it will be easier move up in society. This is her own idea/plan. The Guermantes are aware of this sensitivity and tacitly complicit for their own reasons (nobody wants to remember Swann). Odette is an aristocrat and society Grand Dame now, everybody loves her.

Finally finished Chapter 2 today. So much going on indeed!


Jonathan wrote: "So we get to see the narrator at lunch with the Guermantes and Gilberte Swann or G S Forcheville, which was simply unheard of whilst Swann was alive. I guess it's more palatable now that her new name is not tainted."

I was a little disappointed that Gilberte is 'ashamed' of the Swann name. Yes I understand everything that went on better after reading about the Dreyfus Affair, but still, it's your father, woman!

Anyway, isn't it a bit ironic that the man who Swann was obsessing about ended up marrying Odette afterall? It almost feels that it validates all of his jealousy attacks in the sense that maybe there was actually some flirt going on back there...

Jonathan wrote: "I liked the bit where the narrator thinks of Bergotte reading his article...we're thinking 'but he's dead isn't he?'...only for it to be revealed that the narrator had dreamt it. Is Proust playing with the reader here? I like to think so."

I thought he'd be one of the resuscitation cases!

Jonathan wrote: "Why do the Guermantes stop the narrator commenting on Swann when he looks at Elstir's paintings? I'm not really sure about this. Is it just that any talk of Swann may lead to Gilberte's mother?"

I figured they didn't want to talk about Swann and how they were great friends with him (they only said they perhaps knew him a bit) so they wouldn't have to explain why Gilberte and her mother were never invited to their events...

Dave wrote: "What was the syringa incident Jonathan?"

I'm ashamed to say I really don't remember anything at all about this incident.. I guess I really need a re-read...!

Dave wrote: "When he meets Andre in the next volume she admits this in one meeting (or at least admits his suspicions are true) and then denies them in another meeting. This makes anything she says and her motives suspect."

I'm a bit confused here. In this volume she admitted the incident. Will she deny it further along?

Renato wrote: " It almost feels that it validates all of his jealousy attacks in the sense that maybe there was actually some flirt going on back there... "

I guess they must have carried on seeing each other over the years.

Dave wrote: "Respecting Renato's reading progress, have you read anything about Saint Loup yet? Are there three or four chapters in your edition?"

I haven't read anything about Saint Loup, but I remember feeling he might be gay back in Volume 3. That feeling and the title of chapter 4 make me think something along those lines will be revealed. I wouldn't be surprised. Or perhaps he'll tell us more about that incident where Saint Loup was being mean to a footman. Was he his lover? :-O

Jonathan wrote: "Ch1: Grieving and Forgetting, p563-751
Ch2: Mademoiselle de Forcheville, p753-843
Ch3: Sojourn in Venice, p844-889
Ch4: New Aspect of Robert de Saint-Loup, p891-936"

My edition is also like that. I read this was not Proust's choice, it was his brother's that named thechapters.. I don't see the point in doing that though.

Dave wrote: "They stop him because Gilberte is deliberately trying to cover/ignore the fact that she is Swann's daughter because she believes now that her stepfather adopted her and she has his name it will be easier move up in society. This is her own idea/plan. The Guermantes are aware of this sensitivity and tacitly complicit for their own reasons (nobody wants to remember Swann). Odette is an aristocrat and society Grand Dame now, everybody loves her."

This makes a lot more sense than the theory I shared in a previous post. Thanks, Dave!

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "When he meets Andre in the next volume she admits this in one meeting (or at least admits his suspicions are true) and then denies them in another meeting. This makes anything she says..."

Andre meets him three times after Albertine's death. First time she flatly denies his accusations, second time she goes off on some tangent and doesn't answer the accusation (I believe, I have not found that page), this third time (here) she admits it graphicly. But in this chapter she is sleeping with him., so that may color what she tells him now. There is never any third person omnicent narration to explain convincingly why she says what she says. The same for Albertine and anything anyone tells the Narrator about Albertine. All we have are his suspicions. The Narrator himself shows that her truethfulness is questionable when he thinks: "I pursued these reflexions basing myself on the assumption that Andrée was truthful— which was possible— and had been prompted to sincerity with me precisely because she had now had relations with me, from that Saint- André- des- Champs side of her nature which Albertine too had shown me at the start."

Dave wrote: "Andre meets him three times after Albertine's death. First time she flatly denies his accusations, second time she goes off on some tangent and doesn't answer the accusation (I believe, I have not found that page), this third time (here) she admits it graphicly...."

I think the second time is briefly mentioned as the 'semi-carnal relationship' six months after the first meeting. It gets blurred with the third time I think, but he follows the second visit directly with the sentence (emphasis mine) 'We were in my room for another reason again...' (which is the third visit) then he breaks off to comment on his mother's visit from Princess of Parma and then returns to the third visit from Andrée, when Charlus also visits.

I was asked over on the Yahoo Proust Page if I thought Albertine was a man or a woman. My answer was "I don't know." Here is part of my explaination:

"Biologically was Albertine a man or woman? My opinion is that the jury will forever be out. What was Albertine's sexuality? Again, I admit, I don't know and don't expect to know...

My measure of evidence for such text-based questions is that it must be text-based. With that said, I remember nothing from the text that decisively answers any of the questions posed above. Gossip, hear-say, guilt-by-association; answers provided by paid-informants whose reliability, motivation and/or coloration in answering readers are given reason to doubt; answers provided by person(s) that readers have reason to at least consider may be agents of Albertine; answers given by Albertine under duress that readers might reasonably consider might be motivated by a desire to "just get him to shut up;" answers that, on reflection by the Narrator, are contradicted by memories of information provided by family members; answers based on apparent misinterpretation by the Narrator of words and deeds of Albertine and others; unexplained astonishment by Saint-Loup on being shown Albertine's picture which the Narrator misunderstands; and finally, the series of letters received from Albertine (and her aunt) to which the Narrator responds consistent with his previous words and deeds but which, from a reader's perspective may, have been written to torment or escape the Narrator; in sum, an avalanche of "evidence" that I find inconclusive.

Against all the above there is one possible bit of information provided by Albertine herself. Her recalling to the Narrator the trip she took with the chauffeur when he had to take the car on personal business to Balbec leaving her to spend time at a town along the way and, due to a luggage mix up, giving her no choice but to dress like a man while there. The Narrator apparently misses this point entirely. Interesting and suspect, but still leaving room for reasonable doubt in my opinion...

When Marcel is trying to decide whether Andrée was telling the truth he says

...if what Andrée said was true, and at first I did not doubt it, the real Albertine that I now discovered...was not very different from the orgiastic girl that I had sensed when she had loomed up, walking along the promenade at Balbec...

The other source of Albertine's indiscretions was Aimé, but I suppose he's suspect as well, as he may have just made up what he felt Marcel wanted to hear....yes, I'm starting to have doubts about Albertine's tendencies more and more...It's just difficult to know who to believe...:-)

Even more sinister, is Albertine's dealings with Morel and the innocent girls, which seems less believable than her relationship with Andrée. Could that lend support to the idea that Andrée is just making it up?

I doubted Aime because it was disclosed (I think in Volume IV) that he stayed all night with male and female customers at the Grand Hotel to supplement his income for his family. Without judging his behavior, that showed me that he "knew how to please the customer and would morally do what it takes to do so. Marcel pays him for his investigative trips to Balbec and to Albertine's Aunt. He brings back stories that the bathouse attendant tells him. but immediately after that damning testimony, Marcel remembers that (either Aunt Leonie or Grandmother) had said what a scheming liar the bathhouse attendant was. On the other trip Aime gets info from a laundress he sleeps with. So based on this I totally discount any info Aime provides. I see this whole question as a trial. Albertine stands accused. I don't know that she is "innocent," but I find no hard evidence to convict her. I acquit her of all charges.

Dave wrote: "I was asked over on the Yahoo Proust Page if I thought Albertine was a man or a woman. My answer was "I don't know.""

I remember once Jonathan questioned if the narrator could be female. After that, I got to wonder whether instead of that his relations could be male: Gilberte, Albertine, Andree... all of those names can easily be turned into male names... but I gave up on that idea cause I think it's too out there.

I agree, Morel is slimy and Andree is an unknown quantity.

Ultimately I believe this whole question is written the way it is to make one of the "higher level"points in the book. Marcel was filthy rich and could have easily had Albertine and everyone else followed by professional detectives 24/7. As it is, he wallows in self misery and paranoia depending on acknowledged unreliable characters to bring him info. He doesn't really want to know. Either answer will make him just as miserable as we've seen again and again. I don't see how this part could be accurately made into a movie. Audiences today want answers and closure that it does not suit Proust't purpose to provide here.

Dave wrote: "As it is, he wallows in self misery and paranoia depending on acknowledged unreliable characters to bring him info. He doesn't really want to know...."

I agree that he doesn't really want to know. For me, one of the significant scenes was in The Captive when Albertine is asleep and he goes to rifle through the pockets in her kimono to look at the letters he suspects she has there - but he can't, so he pulls back. He doesn't want to know what she's up to. Maybe he'd be upset that there's nothing going on.

Yes, that was a telling scene.

Jonathan wrote: "Even more sinister, is Albertine's dealings with Morel and the innocent girls, which seems less believable than her relationship with Andrée. Could that lend support to the idea that Andrée is just making it up?"

I also felt this was a little too much. Although after thinking of Morel's plan to have the girl and abandon her, it doesn't seem to far fetched for him...

And Dave, good point about Aimé, I too felt he was delivering what he knew the narrator wanted.

I guess we'll never know what's really true about this story or not, but I felt the reasons Andree gave the narrator for Albertine leaving him were very believable. I also felt it was realistic how his jealousy made him create lots of crazy scenarios while the truth (or what I'm assuming it's the truth) was something way simpler that he never even dared to consider.

Jonathan wrote: "I agree that he doesn't really want to know. For me, one of the significant scenes was in The Captive when Albertine is asleep and he goes to rifle through the pockets in her kimono to look at the letters he suspects she has there - but he can't, so he pulls back. He doesn't want to know what she's up to. Maybe he'd be upset that there's nothing going on."

He's a bit of a masochist, isn't he? I guess if we wanted to make a simple analysis of his behavior, we could say that this is something that comes from his childhood. That feeling of anticipation, that rush "will mom come? will she not?" must be highgly addictive to him. Of course, things are not this simple though, I'm just guessing.

About Gilberte and her father (since by now he's been forgotten...)

"I recalled how, to this girl, Swann used to say at times as he hugged her and kissed her: "It is a comfort, my darling, to have a child like you; one day when I am no longer here, if people still mention your poor papa, it will be only to you and because of you." Swann in anticipating thus after his own death a timorous and anxious hope of his survival in his daughter was as greatly mistaken as the old banker who having made a will in favour of a little dancer whom he is keeping and who behaves admirably, tells himself that he is nothing more to her than a great friend, but that she will remain faithful to his memory."

And later:

"Even in connexion with the things that he had said, the presents that he had made, people acquired the habit of not mentioning him, and she who ought to have refreshed, not to say perpetuated his memory, found herself hastening and completing the process of death and oblivion."

This is quite sad!

Renato wrote: "About Gilberte and her father (since by now he's been forgotten...)

"I recalled how, to this girl, Swann used to say at times as he hugged her and kissed her: "It is a comfort, my darling, to h..."

Yes I agree Renato. Swann, and even Odette are almost forgotten; Gilberte is the rising star with the money and now an aristocratic name. We may wonder though whether Swann and Odette showed any more consideration for the memory of their parents.

I liked the quote from this section:

The illusions of paternal love are perhaps no less poignant than those of the other kind: many daughters regard their fathers merely as the old men who leave their fortunes to them.

My children may have that illusion but I'm spending my "fortune" as fast as I can. But I do want to leave my children something - my maxed out credit card bills!

All these characters started coming out of the woodwork in this section. It was a surprise to learn of Albertine's potential marriage to Octave and then Andrée's actual marriage to him.

I was quite pleased with myself that when the narrator was describing Octave I wondered whether he was describing Jean Cocteau. Now I don't know that much about him but I knew he was heavily involved in the theatre and film and a novelist (Les Enfants Terrible being the only one I've read). The Penguin notes confirmed this. Though in a way the Octave character also has elements of Proust in him.

Dave wrote: "My children may have that illusion but I'm spending my "fortune" as fast as I can. But I do want to leave my children something - my maxed out credit card bills!"

Is that because you're spending all your money on Proust books?

We'll Proust books are doing their part to sop up the spare change. My Rolls Royce and Yacht "just like Marcel bought Albertine" have not arrived yet.

Of course the first few pages of the 'Sojourn in Venice' section appears in this week's reading as well. This had me rushing to the 'Paintings in Proust' book (library copy) that has been little used for this volume up 'til now.

I liked the description of Mme de Villeparisis:

Despite the sad and tired air that the weight of passing years bestows, and despite a sort of red, leprous eczema covering her face, I had no difficulty in recognizing beneath her bonnet [...] the Marquise de Villeparisis.

Yes that part is good.

LOL Dave. I'm constantly telling my father to travel, spend what he's earned, enjoy life etc. and he says he doesn't like it. Then my mother told me recently he wants to leave me and my brother his money and that's why he doesn't spend much on himself. Perhaps if I tell him to read Proust he'll finally consider at least a rolls royce!

LOL Dave. I'm constantly telling my father to travel, spend what he's earned, enjoy life etc. and he says he doesn't like it. Then my mother told me recently he wants to leave me and my brother his money and that's why he doesn't spend much on himself. Perhaps if I tell him to read Proust he'll finally consider at least a rolls royce!

Jonathan wrote: "All these characters started coming out of the woodwork in this section. It was a surprise to learn of Albertine's potential marriage to Octave and then Andrée's actual marriage to him.

I was quite pleased with myself that when the narrator was describing Octave I wondered whether he was describing Jean Cocteau
"

Yes.
Here is just one reference:
Twilight of the Belle Epoque: The Paris of Picasso, Stravinsky, Proust ...
By Mary McAuliffe
See page 294.
https://books.google.com/books?id=FDw...