Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

Use this topic thread for all The Fugitive discussions through the end of the book.

My thoughts and comments on "The Fugative" SPOILERS

I feel ambivalent about this volume. The first 75% of this volume was the hardest for me to get through since the first volume. I started "The Fugitive" with the sense of hostility toward the narrator I brought from the ending of "The Captive." As the volume progressed my hostility faded to frustration which faded to uncertainty toward the narrator and ended with a return to neutral observation of the narrator. It occurs to me that these emotions mirror the narrator's own emotions toward Albertine. If that was a response Proust was seeking to evoke in readers, once again his brilliance shows through. If I am off the mark, well it wouldn't be the first time.

Proust seems to have no use for the social conventions of death (or marriage). Funerals are not discussed or attended (except a second hand account that grandmother's funeral was lightly attended). Flowers (for grief) are not sent. Condolence calls not paid nor condolence letters written or received. Graves are not visited or discussed. Formal mourning dress and withdrawal from social events seem the only conventions alluded to. Perhaps all this is due to one of Proust's many quirks. But it had an effect on my perceptions.

"Albertine was dead." I am not convinced that is true. I lost track of how many times that phrase, or one close to it, was repeated. Verbal irony? Now I did wonder if it was ironic in a psychological sense rather (or in addition to) the physical sense. She wasn't dead psychologically (or in memory) because he continued to obsess just as when she was alive and continued to spy on her after her "death." At some point (I believe after Aime's trip to Touraine) the phrases "Albertine was dead" began appearing in close proximity to "Albertine was alive" and the narrator at least entertained the possibility that she had staged her own death. The whole volume was like a vast psychological storm swirling in a "vicious circle" (Proust's phrase) that finally spends all its energy over the course of five years. This whole "storm" may be irony. I can't be the only reader who believes she is still alive.

The agents: St Loup, Aime, Andrée. St Loup's mission to bribe Albertine's aunt was confusing. But it was clear to the reader that St Loup recognized Albertine when shown her picture and the narrator did not pick up on that recognition. Aime did not seem to me a reliable source given his willingness to do whatever was necessary to support his family as disclosed in S & G. The Balbec Bathhouse Attendant's disclosures are neutralized by memories of Aunt Leonie's criticism of the Attendant's exaggeration and untruthfulness. The Touraine Laundress' veracity is colored by her sleeping with Aime (which also colors his report). Andrée's three visits to the narrator. are like the Ghost of Lovers Past: three completely different and contradictory versions - my conclusion is she is Albertine's agent come to mess with the narrator's head or determine the state of his obsession.

Albertine's letter's before her death seem to be calculated to torment or tease the narrator. Whether for revenge or for sadisim is not yet established. The Aunt's letter reporting her death seems fraudulent (my guess was Andrée wrote it). But the narrator never focuses on the death but remain's focused on Albertine's sexuality. It brings to mind in previous volumes when the inability to really know someone else was commented upon. So the narrator never seriously considers the possibly of a staged death, but is never able to find a decisive answer on Albertine's sexuality. So is the "truth" of who someone else really is "The Fugitive"?

Venice was a let down. After talking and dreaming of going there the entire novel, the short section seemed of little purpose - but perhaps the purposes I saw were more important than I realize. The first purpose established a timestamp based on historical events. M. Norpois' conversation with Prince Foggi leads to Prince Foggi traveling to Rome "that very evening" to recommend to the King that Signor Giolitti be named Prime Minister. Giovanni Giolitti was Prime Minister of Italy five time between 1892-1921. The time that fits events here is the fourth time when he was appointed, March 30, 1911. The second purpose of Venice is as a symbolic "other woman." All through "The Captive" Venice was the alternative to Albertine. He could go there if he dumped her or if she left him. I don't suppose it should be any surprise that when he finally gets there he is bored, as he has been with the other loves of his life. And the final purpose, to illustrate the strange mother/son relationship between the narrator and his mother. His mother "brought" him to Venice for a few weeks. How old is the narrator now? Late 20's? On departure he is mooning over a seventeen year old "rosy-cheeked young glass-vendor" which he dreams of bringing to Paris for "his sole convenience". When mama take the luggage and goes to the train station he defiantly remains behind, only to come racing to the train in a panic and just getting onboard to find his mother near tears. I had a hard time relating to this type of mother/son relationship.

The volume ends on an interestingly ironical note, the foreshadowing that Gilberte will become the Duchesse de Guermantes indicates, I assume, that St Loup will become become the Duc. So the cream of Parisian Society will be reigned over by a Jewess and a Homosexual. That appeals to my sense of justice. Well done, M. Proust!

Dave, all great comments!

I finished this volume last night, but wasn't able to elaborate on my comments yet and today I'll be leaving town for a business trip, so I'll probably be able to post my thoughts over the weekend. Just wanted to comment on this:

- for an instant he had us believing that Albertine was alive. I loved that he mistook Gilberte's telegram as Albertine's;

- we knew legrandin was gay?

- Saint Loup is gay indeed! And he's with Morel! I guess that explain his new bitchy attitude...

- Jupien is Odette's cousin? We knew that?

- Dave, great point here: "So the cream of Parisian Society will be reigned over by a Jewess and a Homosexual. That appeals to my sense of justice. Well done, M. Proust!" :-)

Have a safe trip Renato.

I also finished last night and didn't have time to post anything. I'm at work at the moment but should post some comments later. We can continue the discussion at the weekend I guess.

Just a general point: I ended up really liking The Fugitive. Although there's a lot of the narrator's cyclic thoughts it really speeds up from the end of ch1. I got the feeling that ch2-4 were written at an earlier period than the rest of the book.

By the end of ISOLT I'm expecting all the characters to be homosexual. :-)

In fact I did wonder when reading this whether ISOLT was in fact a sort of sexually inverted (sic) world to that twhich Proust felt he was living in, i.e. Proust was a homosexual living in a largely heterosexual world whereas the narrator appears to be just about the last remaining heterosexual in a homosexual world.

Dave wrote: "Proust seems to have no use for the social conventions of death (or marriage). Funerals are not discussed or attended (except a second hand account that grandmother's funeral was lightly attended)...."

Of course going to the funeral and seeing Albertine's corpse would have helped clarified whether she was really dead. Also, surely there must have been funeral details in newspapers for example. This just highlights, I believe, that the narrator masochistically enjoys the ambiguity and suffering.

Dave wrote: ""Albertine was dead." I am not convinced that is true. I lost track of how many times that phrase, or one close to it, was repeated. Verbal irony? Now I did wonder if it was ironic in a psychologi..."

Albertine is dead! That is until he gets a telegram from her! I thought this bit was a bit far-fetched really. Are we really supposed to believe that mix-ups between translations will produce such a telegram? It seemed a bit pointless.

But after the mix-up over the telegram is explained and right at the end of the 'Venice' section we get these quotes:

We guess as we read, we create; everything starts from an initial error; those that follow (and this applies not only to the reading of letters and telegrams, not only to all reading), extraordinary as they may appear to a person who has not begun at the same place, are all quite natural.

And the following quote follows straight on but I thought I'd separate them here:

A large part of what we believe to be true (and this applies even to our final conclusions) with an obstinacy equalled only by our good faith, springs from an original mistake in our premises.

Be warned fair reader! I wonder what our original mistakes were?

I actually liked that part, Jonathan! I've often read something different than what was written only to be "WAIT WHAT" and to see my brain completely fooled me!

I actually liked that part, Jonathan! I've often read something different than what was written only to be "WAIT WHAT" and to see my brain completely fooled me!

So my iPhone app posts every comment I make twice? Nice...

Something that I enjoyed was how Swann's Way and The Guermantes Way came together with Gilberte and Saint-Loup's wedding. It has always been presented as two paths completely apart from each other so far...

This gave me a feeling that this volume was ending the story, concluding everything, which makes me wonder what Proust has for us in the next volume!

Mt comments that I posted last summer for the volume are somewhat off the mark.
- I notice train trip from Venice reminds me of the trin trips in S&G, full of disclosures.
- The Venice section and the train trip home are the longest "scene" between mother and son.

On reflection, the longest scene between mother and son since the first section of the first volume. There he tried to manipulate her with the note sent with Francoise. Here she manipulates him to get on the train. Interesting.

Although they traveled together to Balbec (second trip), I don't remember much interaction between them on that trip.

Dave wrote: "I feel ambivalent about this volume. The first 75% of this volume was the hardest for me to get through since the first volume."

Jonathan wrote: "Just a general point: I ended up really liking The Fugitive."

Me too, Jonathan. I'm glad you rated it 5 starts. I was expecting something really difficult to get into, but this was like the other volumes for me to be honest. Although slightly not as good as the previous ones, but still 5 stars for me!

Dave wrote: "But it was clear to the reader that St Loup recognized Albertine when shown her picture and the narrator did not pick up on that recognition."

Since supposedly she was so close to Morel, I guess Saint-Loup ended up meeting / knowing her well (or at least heard a lot about her and saw pictures)...

Jonathan wrote: "By the end of ISOLT I'm expecting all the characters to be homosexual. :-)

In fact I did wonder when reading this whether ISOLT was in fact a sort of sexually inverted (sic) world to that twhich Proust felt he was living in, i.e. Proust was a homosexual living in a largely heterosexual world whereas the narrator appears to be just about the last remaining heterosexual in a homosexual world. "

Apparently he is... so far. :-)

I also expected more from Venice... but we have to remember Proust didn't have the time to devote to this volume as much as he had had with the previous ones. Perhaps he would've included more things and the fast pace and so many revelations were merely marks as to what the volume was supposed to encompass so he could return to it later and do his thing...

I decided to re-read chapter 4 before embarking on Time Regained, especially as it follows on quite seamlessly. It's fascinating that the narrator thinks that Saint-Loup's homosexualisation originated when St-Loup noticed that Morel looked like Rachel...even though the narrator doesn't notice the similarity.

I find it a little odd that Odette seems to have no money whatsoever and that she relies on money from Gilberte. I would have expected her to have got her hands on some of Swann's and Forcheville's funds. She came across in the earlier volumes as pretty good at extracting money from men, but then maybe she was equally good at spending it.

Jonathan wrote: "I find it a little odd that Odette seems to have no money whatsoever and that she relies on money from Gilberte. I would have expected her to have got her hands on some of Swann's and Forcheville's..."

Your comments have me back snooping around the end of The Fugitive Jonathan. Can you quote a couple of sentences about Odettte depending on Gilberte please so I can find it.

Marcel mentions that going to Tansonville is a nuisance because he is keeping a girl in Paris. After musing on this for a paragraph he says "And before I could go to Tansonville I had to make her promise that she would place herself in the hands of one of my friends who did not care for women, for a few days." This is exactly what Swan did with Odette (although the homosexual aspect was implicite) when he asked Charlus to keep an eye on her for him when he was away. Also perhaps the source of gossip that Charlus and Odette were lovers at Tansonvile in Swanns Way.

I find it fascinating every time Albertine is mentioned by the Narrator there is some sort of lingering "if only" type of qualifier.

Dave wrote: "Your comments have me back snooping around the end of The Fugitive Jonathan. Can you quote a couple of sentences about Odettte depending on Gilberte please so I can find it. ..."

It's near the end of the book (p930 of my 936 page MKE version). It's where the narrator is explaining that Odette didn't like the match between Gilberte & St-Loup initially but she and St-Loup connived to get money out of Gilberte. The section starts 'There was another person, who changed her tune, namely Mme Swann...'

Dave wrote: "Marcel mentions that going to Tansonville is a nuisance because he is keeping a girl in Paris. After musing on this for a paragraph he says "And before I could go to Tansonville I had to make her p..."

I noticed the mention of his new woman in Paris and thought 'well Marcel's up to his old tricks again'. It leads to this quote which I thought was revealing:

For even if one love has passed into oblivion, it may determine the form of the love that is to follow it.

That's another good point Dave about the similarities between Marcel's and Swann's life. I wonder who the friend is? And can Marcel really trust him?

I feel that the narrator is once again very calm. During the episode with Albertine he was paranoid and overwrought but now he seems to be back to his relatively calm, meditative state.

Then there was the (17 year old?) souvenir seller (or something similar) in Venice which he was mooning over taking back to Paris "for his exclusive use". That was the one time Mama stood up to him. "I'm leaving, you say here if you want.....what to do, what to do..... Ayeeeeeeee wait for me mama! lol

Another aspect of the book I have been thinking about is how little chronological time is portrayed in the action. 100 page dinner parties, receptions, etc. but then very brief moments are portrayed also, and hundreds or thousands of pages of interior monologue. We've read thousands of pages and decades have passed, but almost unnoticed if we were not actively trying to guess what year we are in.

Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Marcel mentions that going to Tansonville is a nuisance because he is keeping a girl in Paris. After musing on this for a paragraph he says "And before I could go to Tansonville I had ..."

And for being in such a dither about his girlfriend being involved with other women, now he seems pretty casual about having apparently multiple friends who do not care for women from whom to choose. Marcel, you've come a long way from learning the birds and bees in S&G.

Dave wrote: "Another aspect of the book I have been thinking about is how little chronological time is portrayed in the action. 100 page dinner parties, receptions, etc. but then very brief moments are portraye..."

But within these short, intense periods he does flit back and forth in time, filling in bits of detail here and there. Even in The Captive I think there were bits where he was remembering past events, especially at the Verdurins'.

I don't worry too much about trying to pin the narrative down to any specific date, but it's impossible to remain totally aloof from it; admittedly there are clues although I suspect I don't pick up on most of them.

What an excellent metaphor Jonathan. "he does flit back and forth in time, filling in bits of detail here and there." A bird building a nest, I think Proust would have loved that description! Very apt and accurate!

I love reading everyone's comments! I find myself sometimes nervous about posting my thoughts, because I just don't think I'm as observant as you all are. Sometimes, little details that the narrator tells us flies right over my head, and I don't fully know what is going on (or at least what Proust wants us to know at that point) until I've read your observations. Thank you for sharing!

Sunny, your thoughts will be one more layer added to our comprehension. Please don't be shy to post them! :-)

I'm glad to see that after the 2 stars rating for Vol. 3, things have picked up for you again with 5, 5 and 4 stars!

OH, yes! I've really enjoyed the last few volumes. :)

Yeah! Sunny has caught up with us!

Dave wrote: "So the cream of Parisian Society will be reigned over by a Jewess and a Homosexual."
Not quite, Dave. Jewish religious and cultural allegiance descends strictly along the maternal line and Odette was, to the best of my recollection, certainly not Jewish. So, whereas Gilberte may, biologically, have 50% Jewish blood (assuming, of course, that Swann was in fact her father! :-)), that fact would not make her a Jew.
As for StLoup being homosexual, would it not be more correct to describe him as bisexual? Just asking . . .

Thanks Ben, I didn't know that interesting fact about Jewish Culture. My weak attempt at humor was trying to capture society prejudice not label Gilberte and Saint Loup. Humor does work well on these threads.

Gilberte may definitely not be Jewish, but I see Proust as portraying society's prejudices not based on fact but on gossip, misunderstanding etc. She changed her name when adopted by Forcheville and was quite sensitive to being a Swann any longer. However, her father may be Jewish, her mother a notorious courtesan, and she herself illegitimate, but society can overlook such shortcomings given her great wealth and marriage into the aristocracy. Proust is so wonderfully cynical.

As for Saint Loup's sexuality I can't say. I searched the MLK Translation of Search and found no use of the word Bisexual. No doubt sexual preferences were just as diverse as they are today, (The Marquise de Sade covered about everything in his day) but Proust seems to have kept his sexual zoo fairly limited. I believe a Bisexual is sexually attracted to both sexes. There are a number of characters who are sexually involved with both sexes in Search. But are they involved with both out of preference or to keep up appearances for whatever reason or, as with rent-boys, just in it for the money? I guess each reader can decide for themselves.

I was always a bit intrigued with why Gilberte 'dropped' her surname 'Swann' so readily as it's not an 'obviously' Jewish name. Presumably it was just because Swann was famous within the society in which they moved and he was known to be Jewish and a Dreyfusard.

I agree Ben, that today St-Loup would probably be called bisexual rather than homosexual - although he strangely seems to change from being heterosexual to homosexual. Are we to believe that he was always homosexual and that his earlier affairs with women were a lie? Or that he had affairs with men during this period and affairs with women during his 'homosexual' period? And is this just because we're seeing it through the narrator's eyes?

When Proust calls homosexuals 'inverts' I'm never too sure if he's making a finer distinction amongst homosexuals. I felt that what he called inverts were men who were sexually attracted to heterosexual men...but I'm not sure if this is correct.

Jonathan wrote: "...although he strangely seems to change from being heterosexual to homosexual....."

In "The Fugitive" (page 927), the narrator dangles the idea that Saint-Loup may have been bisexual since that first Balbec visit.

"...I should have found a certain beauty in the fact that, whereas for me sending the lift-boy to Saint-Loup had been the most convenient way of conveying a letter to him and receiving his answer, for him it had meant making the acquaintance of a person who had taken his fancy." MP

Remember the first description of Saint-Loup?

...I saw approaching, tall, slim, bare-necked, his head held proudly erect, a young man with penetrating eyes whose skin was as fair and his hair as golden as if they had absorbed all the rays of the sun. Dressed in a suit of soft, whitish material such as I could never have believed that any man would have the audacity to wear, the thinness of which suggested no less vividly than the coolness of the dining-room the heat and brightness of the glorious day outside, he was walking fast. His eyes, from one of which a monocle kept dropping, were the colour of the sea. Everyone looked at him with interest as he passed, knowing that this young Marquis de Saint-Loup-en-Bray was famed for his elegance. All the newspapers had described the suit in which he had recently acted as second to the young Duc d’Uzès in a duel. One felt that the distinctive quality of his hair, his eyes, his skin, his bearing, which would have marked him out in a crowd like a precious vein of opal, azure-shot and luminous, embedded in a mass of coarser substance, must correspond to a life different from that led by other men.
[...]
Because of his “tone,” because he had the insolent manner of a young “blood,” above all because of his extraordinary good looks, some even thought him effeminate-looking, though without holding it against him since they knew how virile he was and how passionately fond of women. This was the nephew about whom Mme de Villeparisis had spoken to us. MP

"...passionately fond of women." (??)
I hear the echo of the Baron....and heredity.