The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Do Not Say We Have Nothing
Booker Prize for Fiction
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2016 Shortlist: Do Not Say We Have Nothing
I am so pleased to find this forum on Good Reads, as I was a frequent visitor to the original version most years during Booker season. Typically, I only get through a few titles each year but I love following the rankings. Anyway, this year I started out with this Canadian novel as it was instantly available from the local library. I launched into reading this with great gusto but it is with sadness I have decided to hit eject at around the midway point.
The scope of this book is impressive as it sets a multigenerational saga amongst the political backdrop of China over a period encompassing almost the last 100 years. It feels like an important novel but as a general reader I was just not up to the task of the musicality in this - there is poetry and classical music interweaved in a complex story that hops dizzyingly around in time and place. I look forward to seeing what others make of it as I have not ruled out attempting it again if I can be convinced it is worth the effort.
I agree with Trudie. This is unreadable rubbish - tedious and the characters are indistinguishable. I cannot believe anyone has been able to make such an interesting period of Chinese history so boring.
Sir Hobgoblin- you have made an interesting point there in that I almost willed this into being a book that I want written - the story of China is so rich and heartbreaking and absurdist in a way that it deserves a great epic novel. I did enjoy the sisters in this book - Swirl and Big Mother and as conventional as this sounds a straight forward telling of their story without what I call "literary gymnastics" would have been welcome.
This book is way too long and somewhat tedious. I certainly couldn't read it twice so I feel a bit sorry for the judges... their fault for choosing it, I suppose. It's not awful, but it definitely is not on my shortlist.
Well, it is unanimous thus far, this book is the winner of the basement award. #13. I won't put it in the this-shouldn't-have-been-published category, but it is squarely in the where-have-all-the-editors-gone category. Way too ambitious a book. And other categories where it is overboard: number of characters, amount of plot and melodrama. I felt as though someone was reading aloud to me for hour after hour using the same tone, same voice. Whether it is a sunset or the overwrought description of a crowd attack, the voice just drones on. I normally feel my impressions of a book are merely mine, and that the next person might have a completely different opinion. But on this book I feel quite confident warning others off. If you are trying to decide whether to read this book, save yourself the waste of time. It certainly won't be shortlisted!
I am somewhat pleased it is not just me that didn't enjoy this and yet I have recently read some rather glowing reviews of this as well so .... who knows it may indeed get short-listed ;)
It's a shame because the subject matter is great and deserves better treatment. The chapter toward the end about Tiananmen Square should have been amazing, but was unfortunately one of the most tedious. I was so pleased to finish the book and be done with it.
I just finished this one too. Quite a suprise to see such similar thoughts about this one here. The first pages of it got me going well enough, but then, somehow, Thien quickly loses grip of the narrative and her characters. I really lost interest just after the professors daughter moved in, which is way to soon in a novel of that length. Some better moments later did turn up, but somehow, it is just too much within one key. Of the longlisted books, this is definetely the one I would rank lowest so far and I sincerely hope there won't be another contender for position 13...I do believe it will be shortlisted though, mainly because every time I have a contender for worst book of the longlist, that one is always on the shortlist... (I wouldn't mind it not happening this time though)
Lascosas wrote: "It certainly won't be shortlisted! "May You be right! :-)
I haven't read this - or indeed any of the books yet (the shame). But based on reviews I had read in the press - albeit The Financial Times is maybe not the best place for book reviews - this was actually the only novel on the longlist that was on my to-read radar prior to the list itself. Good to hear from readers whose judgement I respect more than the press that this is one to avoid.Although I wouldn't be confident it won't end up on the shortlist. By definition, having longlisted it, this group of judges have already seen merit in the novel that this group of Goodreaders haven't, probably liking some of the very things others hate. Which I think explains Roland's rule (which I have also observed) that the worst book of the longlist is usually shortlisted.
I am unable to write a more thorough reflection just now, but I beg to differ. I enjoyed this book. Long, yes, but it carried me along with it. On completion it was my favourite so far! (However, since then I've been reading The Sellout...)
I had read Madeleine Thien's previous novel, Dogs At The Perimeter, and thought I had enjoyed it. But I have just dug out my review and it seems my reservations with it were the same as with this novel - albeit tempered by its relative brevity. Broadly, I thought the characters were wooden, the time shifts were choppy, the period of history was interesting but struggling to really hook the reader given the other deficiencies of the novel. In case anyone is interested, here's the link: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I had a go at this but had to give up. Wooden, trite, shrill, etc. Bound to hit the shortlist, money down. After reading a fair few of the longlist by now I'm pleased with the panel's general (and surprising, considering the omissions) ability to pick out worthwhile books. But in the case of this, baffling.
Mod
Would be interested to hear more: e.g. which books turned out to be better than obvious longlist candidates that weren't on? Anything you consider still to have missed out?
I wasn't terribly interested in Do Not Say We Have Nothing anyway (long; frustrated that it didn't cover history to the present day, so many changes in China since 1991). Needless to say this thread is doing nothing to change that.
After reading Do Not Say We Have Nothing, the idea that the judges felt it more merit worthy than, to name a few, Zero K, Imagine Me Gone, LaRose, On Golden Hill or The Mare, fascinates me.The Burnet (which I've just started) is the kind of thing I like to see on there, and which I may never have read otherwise. And Hystopia, for all the dislike on these pages, is a strange and intriguing choice from the same group that plumped for DNSWHN.
Head above the parapet time - I liked this book.I loved the scope of this novel, and appreciated the non-linear storyline. I remember meeting students from the PRC in the UK in the late 1980s and found them at times reticent to talk about their history because there was so much that needed to be explained in order for their small part of the story to make sense. Back then it was Jung Chang's Wild Swans that helped me to have some sense of an overview and gave my new friends the confidence to tell their story without having to tell the whole story. Do Not Say We Have Nothing seeks to tell a story as a part of the whole story, and for me the author succeeded.
Yes, it's long. I think my reading was helped by a timely holiday and some long flights. But the ambition of the novel and the context of the story demands something on the grand scale. This book held me, entertained me, moved me, informed me. I never found myself begrudging the time needed.
Having read Julian Barnes The Noise of Time (thinking it might be on the longlist...) it was interesting to read another novel set in the world of classical music controlled by changing tastes and needs of a totalitarian regime. I enjoyed both books, but it is Thiem's novel that I am more likely to re-read.
I am not suggesting that this book will win this year's prize, but simply that I would not mind if it did. I would happily recommend it to friends (albeit those with some time on their hands, and a passing interest in 20th century Chinese history and classical music...). I can only say that of one winning novel in recent years.
Which winning novel would that be?I read The Noise of Time as well, and while reading Do Not Say We Have Nothing, thought The Noise of Time did a much better job of introducing a similar theme. Much of this one felt like reading an essay. The author was making points, which needs to be done more subtly for my tastes.
Still, I am glad to hear some liked it.
Ang wrote: "Which winning novel would that be?The Narrow Road to the Deep North
After finishing this book I moved on to Kennedy's Serious Sweet, and the contrast couldn't be greater. At core, my complaint with Thien's book is that it isn't very well written, and this made we look back at the longlist as a whole and ask myself some questions. Why was this book selected by the judges? The answer can only be plot. It discusses, or more accurately, the plot wanders through, many of the core events in Chinese history after the communists took over. This makes it a Serious novel dealing with Serious Issues. Perfect for a Discussion Group. But if that is all one wants from a book, read history, not novels. On the classical music front, I found the references bolted on to the plot, not in any way an organic part of the novel. Obviously the author loved Beethoven and has spent time familiarizing herself with a few of his works. But the mention of other composers, from Back to Prokofiev feels artificial. It was merely a convenient part of the plot, a way to introduce Western culture and how that was seen as potentially corrupting and other. It could just have easily have been painting or theater.
Mod
Lascosas wrote: " I won't put it in the this-shouldn't-have-been-published category."The more I think about it, the more I would.
Mister Hobgoblin-My memory from years past is that we had very different tastes in books. But this year our tastes are closely aligned. Since I always appreciate your insightful reviews, I'm very pleased about that.
I know our tastes differ. Nothing wrong with that - I have a close friend who I first met on the original Booker forum whose reviews I always read and respect in the certainty that I will have a diametrically opposite reaction to the book in question.I am surprised to find my rankings this year match yours quite closely. I think you didn't react as well to His Bloody Project, but already I feel my opinion of Serious Sweet is growing. And we both agree on Lucy Barton which is reassuring.
I'll know I'm in trouble when Ang and I agree on a book. :)
We agree on this one, MisterHG! But I see what you mean, I don't think our favourites have ever been the same.
Ang - I am sure we will never like the same book. But when we both dislike a book - as in this case - it is proof beyond refutation that it is without a shred of merit and ought never to have been published. :)
Forty pages in I am enjoying it. Although after finishing The Sellout I would, by comparison, nominate the safety card in an aeroplane for the Booker shortlist, so perhaps my critical faculties need to be recalibrated
Just finished. Further thoughts to follow but to me it is well ahead of most of the other books on the longlist and one I would be happy to see winning.
Mod
I feel for you, Trevor. At least when I was reading it, I thought it would get better, but you've unfortunately read the thread and see what many of us think. I don't think it was awful though, and I'm glad I finished it. (Trying to sound encouraging).
Trevor - as I mention above, I enjoyed it. Granted, as Ang comments, it's hard once you've seen a lot of negative feedback, and I do feel it's a book that requires a good run up to 'get into it'. But I found it rewarding.Paul - it's good to know I'm not alone. However, it really does demonstrate how complicated it is to predict responses. You mentioned that you read it after The Sellout - which sounds like a disappointing experience for you? I read The Sellout straight after DNSWHN and thought it was fascinating. I currently have these two at the top of my list!
Full review in the header. I can certainly see why others, above, dislike it. One can't deny, for example, that some tighter editing may have come in handy.
But where it is flawed it is because it falls a little short of its ambitions, whereas too much of this year's longlist is just very very ordinary.
The most distinctive quality to me is that it reads like translated fiction. It brings a different culture and language to our attention (but in a way that is comprehensible - unlike another book I won't mention).
Actually, and given we have just added an author thread about him, the book most reminded me of Andrei Makine, albeit with undertones of Yan Lianke and Julian Barnes and faint hints of Kundera, Krasnahorkai, Park Hyoung-su and Thomas Bernhard.
John wrote: "Paul ... You mentioned that you read it after The Sellout - which sounds like a disappointing experience for you? " Definitely in my personal top 10 worst books I have read this millennium.
Do Not Say We Have Nothing is a book it feels good to have read. That said, I felt like a detached observer of an historical period in time and rarely felt fully engaged in the human elements.Many readers have commented on this being a difficult book to read due to the absence of a character list. In this view I concur.
The underlying subject matter is fascinating, and still relatively rarely fictionalised (in English, anyway).
The Cultural Revolution, Mao, Great Leap Forward,The Gang of Four and even Tianamen Square, are all topics that prove that truth can be stranger than fiction.
In some respects this is "Faction"; the human stories in Do Not Say' personalise what is studied at University for late twentieth century Chinese history.
The musical theme worked well for me and it's a sign of a worthwhile book when the reader wants to subsequently learn more about its subject matter. This is what I feel about trying to understand the nuances of Debussy and Bach and Shostakovich after reading 'Do Not Say'.
Interestingly William Vollmann's "Europe Central" uses exactly the same device to contrast state driven orthodoxy with individual expression through Art. In Europe Central it's Stalinism in the Soviet Union, and Shostakovich, again, is the focal point.
"Do Not Say We Have Nothing" could certainly win the 2016 UK Booker prize.
I feel a need to come back to my major problem with this book, particularly when a fine writer like Vollmann is brought up. This is a very poorly written book. Take any paragraph at random and tell me it deserves to be longlisted. I strongly think not.
I thought Paul's comment was telling - that its most distinctive quality is that it reads like translated fiction. This is seldom a virtue.
Lascosas wrote: "Take any paragraph at random and tell..."Exhibit A:
"My client's father, the esteemed African-American psychologist F.K. Me (may the esteemed motherfucker rest in peace)."
Exhibit B:
"People lost one another. You could be sent five thousand kilometres away with no hope of coming back. Everyone had so many people like this in their lives, people who had been sent away. This was the bitterness of life but also the freedom. You couldn't live against the reality of the time but it was still possible to keep your private dreams, only they had to stay that way, intensely, powerfully private. You had to keep something for yourself, and to do that, you had to turn away from reality. It's hard to explain if you didn't grow up here. People simply didn't have the right to live where they wanted, to love who they wanted, to do the work they wanted. Everything was decided by the Party. When the demonstrations began, the students were asking for something simple. In the beginning it wasn't about changing the system, or bringing down the government, let alone the Party. It was about having the freedom to live where you chose, to pursue the work you loved."
(OK not quite at random)
I'm with B for the shortlist and A for the rubbish tip.
Probably won't surprise you to hear that I really didn't like Europe Central either! Looking back that got my annual 1 star award for 2010.
Lascosas "I feel the need to come back to my main problem with this book, particularly when a fine writer like Vollmann is brought up"
Invoking the name of Vollmann appears to have upset you in a way that Paul's mention, among others, of Kundera Krasnahorkai did not?
My review and opinion of "Do Not Say We Have Nothing" is that it is good, not great; and that the underlying historical subject matter and the use of classical music to convey humanity in the face of state control are the book's strengths.
So, I agree with you that comparisons of Vollmann and Thien's writing massively favour the former.
You will not, though, find any two books that more closely juxtapose repression and enlightenment through music. And that feature Shostakovich in this way.
So referencing Vollmann in this context seems fair to me.
Paul - I think your examples are a case in point. The former is playful, makes a heap of cultural references and jokes all in the one line. The second says nothing we didn't already know (that the Chinese State was controlling), but does so in many words that are convoluted but, basically, do not contain even the single germ of a new idea. Plus it says that it is really hard to explain if you didn't grow up there - which kinda contains her own excuse for how badly she tells the story. Lascosas - I agree that the historical backdrop of Do Not Say We Have Nothing is impressive, which is why I feel that a novel drawing from it should be so much better than this. It has a starting advantage, and to create something so dull from it is astonishing.
I agree with Misterhobgoblin's statements. I was about to say that exhibit A is much better than exhibit B. Thien is mostly writing a very long essay with this book. I am sure she did a lot of research. The problem is that it reads like a dissertation rather than a novel.
Mod
So referencing Vollmann in this context seems fair to me."
A few months ago a rather erudite Goodreads friend was frustrated that [press] reviews of Julian Barnes' The Noise of Time did not refer to Europe Central, seeming to indicate that too few people who read more mainstream literary fiction read Vollmann. At least here there are counterexamples!
The wonderful thing about these discussions is epitomised by the chat concerning this book. To me, it's a horrible piece of work. But many advocates, and a lively exchange. The shortlist will be fascinating.
Lee, I completely agree. I'm glad that my comment resulted in so many thoughtful responses.
I was actually rather dreading reading this, the 12th of the Booker longlist from this year I've now read- a nearly 500 page novel on the Chinese Cultural Revolution? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! Kill me now! However, although the politics play an integral part of the story, it never overwhelms one who has just a very rudimentary knowledge of the past 100 years of Chinese history. Not having much knowledge or affection for either classical music, nor mathematics, which are the other salient topics, might also have impeded my enjoyment - but Thien's epic won me over with its central triangle of characters who are all stymied from realizing their life's passions by the various totalitarian regines that come to power, fade out, and then are renewed with even more horrendous results. Sure, the book could have stood a couple more judicious edits, especially in the first half (as well as a copyeditor who wasn't half asleep!), but the book grows in power and emotional involvement. I am fairly sure it will make the shortlist, and would not be either surprised nor disappointed if it took the prize.
Mod
Antonomasia wrote: "The true "love it or hate it" work is IMO quite rare - one where there are few 3-star ratings and lots more 4-5 and 1-2 stars, but this looks like the real deal"I'm not sure. I think it is quite telling that even the 4-5 star reviewers seem to offer their praise only with qualifications and they read more like 3 star reviews. I wonder whether contrariness plays a part - if others damn something you thought was OK-ish, you give high marks to redress the balance. If others praise a book you thought was mediocre, it may push you towards a more damning assessment. I am certainly aware of my own inclination in this direction and I am sure I am not unique.
Mod
MisterHobgoblin wrote: " I wonder whether contrariness plays a part - if others damn something you thought was OK-ish, you give high marks to redress the balance. If others praise a book you thought was mediocre, it may push you towards a more damning assessment. I am certainly aware of my own inclination in this direction and I am sure I am not unique. ."I may possibly have slightly fallen into this tendency on both this and The Sellout. But to be contrarian on being a contrarian, I actually think that makes for a healthy debate.
Albeit I did genuinely enjoy this and it's interesting to see its been much better received, and with less extreme views either way, on the other main Goodreads booker blog Manbookering (am I allowed to mention that here!)
Paul wrote: "MisterHobgoblin wrote: " I wonder whether contrariness plays a part - if others damn something you thought was OK-ish, you give high marks to redress the balance. If others praise a book you though..."I noticed that the Manbookering group found this much worthier also. As far as 'upping' its rating to be contrary, I as a rule don't read any other member reviews prior to writing and posting mine, so that doesn't enter into my evaluations, personally.
Even if you are not being contrary to others, there is a halo-horns effect where after reading something not to your taste, you will tend to be more fulsome in your praise for something you did enjoy - and vice versa.
Despite some negative comments here about DNSWHN, I looked forward to reading it. By my perhaps imperfect count, the 2016 Booker longlist has twelve novels set in Europe, the UK, and the US. DNSWHN, I thought, would be a welcome change. I found DNSWHN deeply compelling and affecting, but somewhat disappointing nonetheless. I didn’t find its style more troublesome some others on this year’s longlist. Yes, DNSWHN could have benefited from a stronger editorial hand, judicious cutting, and the addition of a cast of characters or family trees. DNSWHN’s pacing was uneven, and the movement back and forth between the now and the then sometimes interesting, sometimes confusing, and occasionally boring. But the need for a stronger editorial hand and judicious cutting, and improved pacing is far from unique among recent Booker shortlisted doorstoppers, and I found DNSWHN compelling and affecting despite its problems.
DNSWHN is my twelfth from this year’s longlist. Unfortunately, Serious Sweet is still slowly wending its way across the Atlantic, and especially unfortunately because Kennedy’s short stories are among my favorites. Based on the twelve that I’ve read so far, I hope that the judges include DNSWHN on the shortlist. And I also hope that the still unread Serious Sweet proves to be a worthy top pick.
UK Publication Date: July 7, 2016
US Publication Date: None
480 pp
In Canada in 1991, ten-year-old Marie and her mother invite a guest into their home: a young woman who has fled China in the aftermath of the Tiananmen Square protests. Her name is Ai-Ming. As her relationship with Marie deepens, Ai-Ming tells the story of her family in revolutionary China, from the crowded teahouses in the first days of Chairman Mao's ascent, to the Shanghai Conservatory in the 1960s and the events leading to the Beijing demonstrations of 1989. It is a history of revolutionary idealism, music, and silence, in which three musicians, the shy and brilliant composer Sparrow, the violin prodigy Zhuli, and the enigmatic pianist Kai struggle during China's relentless Cultural Revolution to remain loyal to one another and to the music they have devoted their lives to. Forced to re-imagine their artistic and private selves, their fates reverberate through the years, with deep and lasting consequences for Ai-Ming - and for Marie. Written with exquisite intimacy, wit and moral complexity, Do Not Say We Have Nothing magnificently brings to life one of the most significant political regimes of the 20th century and its traumatic legacy, which still resonates for a new generation. It is a gripping evocation of the persuasive power of revolution and its effects on personal and national identity, and an unforgettable meditation on China today.