Political Philosophy and Ethics discussion

Hi everyone! :)

I have been reading up on bits and pieces of information regarding politics for a while now. Recently, I have found that what is being discussed in political philosophy interest me. To further my interest, I have considered buying books such The Communist Manifesto and The Prince. However, I am afraid that I am taking a step too big and may not understand what those books are talking about.

Thus, I wanted to ask, for a beginner in political philosophy like me, will works such as The Communist Manifesto and The Prince be too complicated or confusing for me to understand?

Additionally, I would also like to ask where/which book or books should I start from/with to further understand political philosophy before purchasing works of Karl Marx and other political philosopher?

Thanks in advance :)

Yes, I think it would be daunting for an absolute beginner. There are other works by Marx which are more digestible; such as the The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte.

Works of intellectual commentary on his ideas are also useful. Searching Goodreads for books with his name turns up many, such as The Revolutionary Ideas of Karl Marx, Karl Marx: A Reader, or Marx: A Very Short Introduction

His close partner, Frederick Engels has his fascinating The Condition of the Working Class in England and The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State. Dense, but rewarding. These were highly erudite men.

There are also authors such as Karl Kautsky, Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Liebknecht, & Peter Kropotkin who have all written at length on these matters; and even fomented revolts with their words.

For general recommendations on 'suitable-for-beginners' works of philosophy, the Philosophy group on Goodreads has several threads on that theme.

edit: I came back to my post because I remembered a title I think would fit more aptly than almost any of the above. Try To the Finland Station by Edmund Wilson. It is eloquently, passionately written and will give you a grand overview of the entire history of socialism --into which Karl Marx fits as just one component. Marx's career, personal life, collaboration with Engels, and his core ideas are weighed up. Sifted, examined in detail... yet the high-level view is never lost.

Hi

Thanks for the reply and the information that it contains, I much appreciate it.

However, I have another question for you specifically. I was looking on another thread in this group (short books on Philosophy - recommendations please.) where I found that you have suggested, to the person who was asking the question, to read some of the books in The Oxford University Press, 'Very Short Introduction' series. Do you think the books in this series is suitable for people like me, with not much background in political philosophy or philosophy in general, or is it a bit too challenging as well?

Thanks again.

That is precisely for whom the series was designed. The lay-person. The sincere, beginning student. It's why I often recommend it. It's a beautiful series of books.

Ah I see thanks very much for your help :)

Alan, I'd like to hear what kind of household you grew up in. Even just briefly. Were you pushed to excel in school or sports or other activities? Was 'ambition' lauded in your upbringing? Did your parents value academic excellence particularly? Were there lots of books in your home? Were you allowed to goof off, be lazy? Did they constantly reiterate principles like "getting ahead", "going to college" and "making a success"?

p.s. Randall and anyone else, as well. I'd be interested to hear your nature/nurture stories.

Feliks wrote: "Alan, I'd like to hear what kind of household you grew up in. Even just briefly. Were you pushed to excel in school or sports or other activities? Was 'ambition' lauded in your upbringing? Did your..."

Gosh, that's a bit personal. I'd prefer not to get into details, but I'll give you a brief summary. As I've previously mentioned, I grew up in a small (less than 10,000 population) rural town in Minnesota (180 miles from Minneapolis/St. Paul, the only place that really qualified as a "city" in my "neighborhood"). My town was probably bigger than the fictional Lake Wobegon, but not by much. My family was Lutheran, which meant that we weren't too ambitious—no "prosperity gospel" there (Lutheran humility is also one of Garrison Keillor's favorite themes, and accounts, according to one of my Calvinist Presbyterian friends, for why there have been no Lutheran presidents and only one Lutheran Chief Justice (Rehnquist)). Still my parents talked about various political and intellectual issues with us, and they took it for granted that my two sisters and I would go to college, which we all did. Not many books—there wasn't even a bookstore in town, and this was long before Amazon. However, I read a lot of books that I borrowed from the Carnegie Public Library and the school library. In my last couple of years in high school, one of the drug stores started carrying nonfiction paperback books. I recall that my initial purchases there included John Kenneth Galbraith's The Affluent Society and Barry Goldwater's The Conscience of a Conservative—how's that for being "well-rounded"? Following my parents, I was, by default, a Republican in my junior high years, and I "played" Henry Cabot Lodge (the Republican vice-presidential candidate in the 1960 election) in the mock debate before the entire student body that year. After JFK and LBJ won the actual election (and upon reading Galbraith), I switched to being a liberal Democrat (later becoming more conservative in reaction to the 1960s counterculture and then, for about three decades, libertarian before coming around full circle to being a liberal (progressive) Democrat in the 2000s and after).

After realizing during junior high that I was a hopeless failure in sports, I joined debate, speech, and drama activities, in which I excelled. My debate team placed third in the state high school debate tournament my junior year, and I placed first the next year in the Minnesota American Legion High School Oratorical Contest with an original oration that blasted the American Legion for its flirtation with investigating "communistic" activities at the University of Minnesota. As the state winner, I gave my original oration ("Freedom to Think") at the annual state American Legion convention—at the exact time that they were debating whether to investigate the University of Minnesota. A Minneapolis Tribune reporter was there to report the latter developments, and, after my speech, he asked me to repeat to him privately the most critical paragraph in my oration, which I did. That paragraph appeared in his newspaper article the next day, which reported that the Legion had voted against the motion to investigate after listening to my speech (one of the Legionnaires came up to me after my speech and said they needed more thinking like mine). I also participated in three plays: the title role in "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" (freshman year), the prosecuting attorney in "The People vs. Maxine Lowe" (junior year), and one of the characters in a play my senior year (I asked for a minor role, as I was heavily involved in debate, and I don't remember the name of the play of the top of my head.) In my travels during high school, I also attended speeches by JFK, RFK, Hubert Humphrey, and (if I recall correctly) Eugene McCarthy. Those were the glory days. Nothing I have done since has been as exhilarating as these extracurricular high school activities, though the writing and publication of my book on Roger Williams was more deeply satisfying.

The most important influence of my pre-college years was debate. It is there that I learned to think critically. At that time I bought a book (again, from that drug store paperback rack) entitled Fallacy: The Counterfeit of Argument, and I still have that book in my library. My debate coach was a real intellectual and was much more left-wing than most of the people in town; he helped me develop my critical thinking and debate skills. My drama/speech coach was also exceptional. Additionally, I happened to have a few other thoughtful and knowledgeable teachers in history, government, English (literature), biology, and some other subjects.

The foregoing is probably more than a summary and unfortunately reads like a job application, but you asked for it. Now, please tell us about your background, which is otherwise well concealed due to the "private" status of your Goodreads profile.

I was raised in a suburb of Pittsburgh, PA, daughter of an accountant. My family was also Lutheran, with "Dark Lutheran" leanings. We were expected to get good but not perfect grades (the one and only time I got a D in the the seventh grade my mother threw the report card on the floor, stomped on it, spit on it and cried for two hours) and I walked around convinced that because of original sin - i.e. BREATHING WHILE HUMAN - I was going Hell for all eternity. Humility and keeping quiet were the highest virtues I could practice. All that went away at age 19 (in the year 1968 - need I say more?) but it left scars.

My sister and I were very lucky because my mother's good friend had a cheating husband who divorced her. My mother was determined to send us to college just in case we got divorced and were left without husbands to fend for ourselves. So, in spite of the fact that our Pastor preached that a woman's place was in the home, Mom went out and got herself a job to send my sister and me to school. I had a career as a computer developer and my sister knows a lot about philosophy and keeping a house (as it turned out). She tried to go back to work after her son grew up, but she became very sick and couldn't finish the extra schooling. She's fine now, but at 60 it's a bit late to start over. My brother, the engineer, worked for an oil support corporation for a long time and now has his own business and owns real estate.

I am proud of how far I got under the circumstances. Back in the 60's when I was in high school, I liked astronomy but girls didn't take science classes so the most I had was sophomore chemistry. After getting a BA in German (not worth much until now, when I'm getting back into it for fun), my eventual computer job allowed me to buy two houses and three cars, if that's how you measure success. Now I am happily retired with my hubby. He writes and I agitate (going to DC for the March on Science) as well as help a lefty group with data.

Bet that's more than you wanted to know!

Well uh.. yes..h'mmm...well...these are quite fully-fledged curriculum vitae! Very interesting! Car purchases and house purchases and Henry Cabot Lodge and legionnaires..and..and...well!


I will have to re-read these a few times to hone in on the morsels I'm a-wanting. I'm specifically interested in whether your parents pushed you to succeed and whether academia was always the assumption. I'm sure its all contained in your paragraphs but I'll have to peer more closely at it on my lunch break tomorrow.

Anyway thank ye both and glad you tolerated m'personal inquiry...hope to hear some more inputs from the rest of the troupe here...

p.s. no, nothing much to say about myself...I just read a lot of books, that's my only distinguishing trait. Just an anonymous bookworm. So even if I 'unblock' my Goodreads profile info; there's naught to see. Everything on it is fabricated and preposterous. Facetious. I never trust the www with any genuine information...

A few days ago, my wife and I finished watching the Great Courses DVDs of Professor Robert C. Bartlett's lectures on the ethical and political philosophy of Socrates, Aristophanes, Xenophon, Plato, and Aristotle, titled "Masters of Greek Thought: Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle." See here for the course description and outline as well as information about ordering the DVDs. This lecture series is also available as an audiobook on Audible (regular price $41.95 but free with a trial subscription). The DVDs are quite expensive, but Great Courses periodically has sales, and I purchased this set for $76.79 at one such sale several months ago. Right now, they are offering 70% off the regular price of $374.95 for the DVD set. Unlike many other Great Courses offerings, this one is not currently available as a direct video download to a desktop or laptop.

I highly recommend these lectures. Professor Bartlett's introduction to and interpretation of these classic writings of political and ethical philosophy (Socrates, of course, did not write anything himself) are altogether excellent. It is a perfect introduction for a beginner and a great refresher for someone like me who has read widely and deeply in Plato and Aristotle. My wife, who had little previous exposure to ancient Greek political and ethical philosophy, has become virtually an expert on the subject just from watching these lectures.

Although the lectures never mention Leo Strauss, Professor Bartlett is a Straussian, and his lectures are consistent with Strauss's interpretive approach. He occasionally mentions other interpretations and explains why, in his view, they are incorrect. More often, such criticism is merely implicit in Bartlett's presentation.

What struck me as most remarkable was Bartlett's impeccable composition of the scripts for these lectures. He clearly spent a great deal of time figuring out how to present the material in the clearest possible manner. Not a word was wasted.

If one purchases the DVDs, one can also purchase a complete course transcript for $20.00. I have made such a purchase and will be consulting the transcript as I continue my reading of these classical political and ethical philosophers.

H'mmm! H'mmm! That is a high recommendation indeed. Now, I don't know anything about 'audiobooks' --the ones I have tried, I've disliked intensely--but I would be keen to obtain an audio transcript or audio-only version of Professor Bartlett's actual lectures as deployed in this course. I'd enjoy it. But as far as the other, no --I simply don't watch visual media of any kind anymore. I wonder if I purchase the DVDs whether the audio can be ripped. I used to do that with favorite Hollywood movies...

Feliks wrote: "H'mmm! H'mmm! That is a high recommendation indeed. Now, I don't know anything about 'audiobooks' --the ones I have tried, I've disliked intensely--but I would be keen to obtain an audio transcript..."

The DVDs can now be purchased here on Amazon for $24.95. An audio-only version of the lectures can be purchased here on Audible for $41.95 (or free with a 30-day Audible trial). I'm sure the audiobook is simply the DVD version without the visual. If you object for some reason to seeing as well as hearing the lectures, you could buy the DVDs on Amazon and just listen to and not watch them. Such procedure makes no sense to me, but I learned long ago that different people like different things. I have no idea what you mean by ripping the audio from the DVDs or even how that could be done. But, again, if you don't like the visual portion of the lectures, you can just listen to them without watching them. Perhaps you could somehow turn off your screen if you consider it a distraction while keeping the sound on—if that is technically possible.

Aye. Thanks for providing that link. What I want to do is peel off the audio so that I don't need to devote 'screen time' to acquire the info. There's freeware programs which separate out audio from video on DVD discs. After all, its just a bunch of separate files. Anyway not to digress. I feel the price of the series is very fair for the amount of content I'd be obtaining. Might make this a holiday treat for myself. Has this series altered your current writing project Alan? Probably yes eh? For me, these Greeks are wonderful in shaking up the 'workaday trance' which is so easy to succumb to. Making it a point to delve in, every year.

Feliks wrote: "Has this series altered your current writing project Alan? "

I had previously studied almost all of the works discussed in this course, so the series did not alter my current writing project. However, Professor Bartlett had some very interesting interpretations that I had not previously considered.

If you want an introduction to Greek philosophy, Peter Adamson's book/podcast series Classical Philosophy is funny and very worthwhile. The podcasts are free, short and funny. They are available here: https://historyofphilosophy.net/class... or you can just search for A History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps in your podcast app (there are a lot of episodes about medieval philosophy, so you need to go all the way back). Obviously not limited to political philosophy and ethics.

A more specific introduction to ethics and political philosophy is Michael Sandel's Justice: What's the Right Thing to Do?. Sandel teaches a very popular introductory class at Harvard (available for free on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfc...). I haven't watched the videos, but the book is a very good introduction with relevant and contemporary dilemmas and good discussions of Bentham, JS Mill, Kant, Rawls and Aristotle. In the last chapters of the book, Sandel champions his own communitarian views, which might be a bit out of place in an introductory text, but I still think it's a very worthwhile (and quite easy and fun read). From what I've seen, the youtube videos are good as well.

Finally, I would recommend Will Kymlicka's textbook Contemporary Political Philosophy. Kymlicka discusses libertarianism, socialism, feminism etc. as each a different response to Rawls' egalitarian liberalism. This book is quite a bit more demanding than Sandel's, but very much worth consulting.

I see that www.criticalthinking.org has a "thirty-day free trial" of their products going on lately

'...no obligation to buy, and no salesman will call at your home ...' (as the 'ol saying goes)

Lives of the Stoics: The Art of Living from Zeno to Marcus Aurelius

As a relative newbie to goodreads, I only just discovered Listopia. There are a bunch of lists involving democracy, but I just picked one of them: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1... to add a bunch of my favorite books on the subject (immodestly--but unsuccessfully--trying to include my own new book) Democratic Theory Naturalized: The Foundations of Distilled Populism, which is currently involved in a goodreads Giveaway. I guess authors can't add their own books to Lists :(

I want to invite readers of this thread to vote on books on that list, and to add their own as well! Thanks.

Hi! Im not sure if this is the right topic to ask about this so feel free to delete it haha
Being interested in international politics, I’ve done my best to see it from both a historical and economical view (started reading stiglitz and looking into Kotkin) but I’m wondering if any of you have philosophical recommendations? Especially interested in learning about the Thucydides Trap. Preferably beginner books thank you!

kate wrote: "Hi! Im not sure if this is the right topic to ask about this so feel free to delete it haha
Being interested in international politics, I’ve done my best to see it from both a historical and economical view (started reading stiglitz and looking into Kotkin) but I’m wondering if any of you have philosophical recommendations? Especially interested in learning about the Thucydides Trap. Preferably beginner books thank you!"

Kate, you are off to a good start reading Stephen Kotkin (who is terrific) and Joseph Stiglitz (of whom I will be reading more in the near future). These, of course, are hardly “beginner books,” and, candidly, I don’t know of what I would call “beginner books” in these subject areas. I would advise perusing the comments in the following topics of this Goodreads group: International Law and Politics, Government and the Economy; Property Rights, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism vs. Rule of Law, International Populist Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism; Libertarianism and Anarchocapitalism; Objectivism, Adam Smith (1723-90), Historical Trends and Their Effects on Political and Economic Institutions, Karl Marx (1818-83), and Thucydides (ca. 460 – ca. 400 BCE). The posts in these topics contain many references to relevant articles and books.

See also my Goodreads bookshelves for Economics and Economic History, International-Foreign Policy, and my many bookshelves (see left-hand column) on history (https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...).

In 2017, I posted Graham Allison’s Destined for War: Can America and China Escape Thucydides’s Trap? as "to read" on my "International-Foreign Policy" bookshelf, but I have not yet read it. See also the Wikipedia article on the Thucydides Trap, which you have probably already seen.

Happy reading!

ADDENDUM TO MY PRECEDING POST:

See also the Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy topic of this Goodreads group. I inadvertently omitted that topic in my preceding post.

Other topics in this group may be relevant in part, but the Goodreads topics and bookshelves I have listed provide significant (though not necessarily complete) information regarding these subject matters.

FURTHER ADDENDUM

Also, the topic The Philosophy of Capitalism.

Alan wrote: "kate wrote: "Hi! Im not sure if this is the right topic to ask about this so feel free to delete it haha
Being interested in international politics, I’ve done my best to see it from both a historic..."
Thank you so so so much! I’ll look into them!