Our Shared Shelf discussion

Hey guys, something apart from the content of the book, but I wanted to share my observation with you.

So I read the book in German and I noticed something which I found kind of disturbing in the translation.
As some of you may know German is not the easiest language. For example we have three articles for nouns: male, female and neutral. And since a long time we have this discussion about male and female terms. For almost every male occupation/description/etc. there is a female equivalent e.g. in English actor and actress or waiter and waitress. Even though of course in generalizations or in plural the male version is usually used (generic masculine) it is common to use the female version for women.
But in the book there often is the male version written when it is clearly talking about a woman e.g. governor, senator. For a book that’s targeting the oppression of women I think this is not okay. Because yes in our Western world we don’t have the big problem of sex slavery but linguistic oppression for example is also a (highly debated) thing.

I just wanted to share this notion with you. Let me know if you have any thoughts on it.

Oh, before you ask: the translation was done by a man.

I totally agree. As I am German and a feminist Ive noticed this in quite a few books and talked to my German teacher about this phenomenon. i do not understand why people dont seem to realize this themselves since it is quite a common thing and clearly not the hardest thing to pay attention to while translating

Hmm, I've had a German class for 4 years in highschool and I understand your point.

I don't think that the translator was aware of this problem and it might be a good idea to make him aware. Show him the ways of equality and how he could use that to translate books in a more general way.

Kim wrote: "Hey guys, something apart from the content of the book, but I wanted to share my observation with you.

So I read the book in German and I noticed something which I found kind of disturbing in the ..."

You can also argue that the problem is in the language itself and that for true equality we should drop either one like having no more actresses but only actors (or the other way around) but the interpretation becomes they can be both male or female.

In the Netherlands for example we have now the convention that if there's a job offer, we seek an 'acteur (m/v)' which means male/female (an actress is an actrice in Dutch).

Also I have seen the (more sympathetic towards woman in this case) custom that instead of always using the awkward 'he/she' or 'he or she' to only just ever say 'she', even if the gender is undetermined.

So I can offer you the following thought provoking question: we already know that Hermione can be black, but are we also ready to accept that she can be a man.

Juniper Green wrote: "The right addressee here would be the German publisher, not the translator - who often has to translate how the publisher tells him to translate. "


hmm, you're right.
never actually thought about the influence of publishers :/

Harm wrote: "So I can offer you the following thought-provoking question: we already know that Hermione can be black, but are we also ready to accept that she can be a man."

Skin color doesn't really change Hermione's character - more the way she's perceived by the reader, and how POC (is this appellation correct?) can identify to her.
Hermione, being a boy? The character would be completely different!

Here we talk about a profession => a function. It doesn't depend on the individual. So it shouldn't depend on the gender.

Kim wrote: "But in the book there often is the male version written when it is clearly talking about a woman e.g. governor, senator. For a book that’s targeting the oppression of women I think this is not okay. Because yes in our Western world we don’t have the big problem of sex slavery but linguistic oppression for example is also a (highly debated) thing. "

That's clearly not okay!!!
Especially that German people are completely aware of this issue, cf. the huge effort made in academia to make the feminine form visible in titles and statuses -> StudentInnen, etc.

I came across this source during work last week: GESCHICKT GENDERN - Das Genderwörterbuch. It's similar to a thesaurus and offers gender-neutral alternatives to nouns that describe people. The Binnen-I is considered controversial as it has a binary function, and the Gender-Sternchen is not accepted that much yet, even though it does encompass all genders. Maybe it's interesting for those who deal with the German language.

Sir, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Sexual slavery is VERY rampant here in the west, especially in the USA, it's on the rise, not decreasing. Criminal orginizations, especially street gangs are now turning to this lucrative trade as the drug trade has became a bit too bloody and the gov has been clamping down.

But I suppose you can go too far in imposing language changes http://news.nationalpost.com/full-com...

Laure wrote: "Hermione, being a boy? The character would be completely different!" So she cannot is your conclusion, so this must not be forgotten in the equality discussions; equality does not mean sameness.

This is really interesting. I have been thinking a lot recently about how learning a language through classes and textbooks means you learn to speak it in a very traditional way, that doesn't reflect how people might be moving towards a more gender neutral way of speaking.

English also has gender bias of course, yet some people will go out of their way to inject it even where there isn't any - I used to get so frustrated with a previous boss who would refer to his doctor as a 'lady doctor' (this was the tip of his sexism iceberg!)

It's interesting to know that when translating a book about gender inequality they did not think more about how to use language in a way that doesn't privilege men.

Ulfar wrote: "I don't think that the translator was aware of this problem and it might be a good idea to make him aware. Show ..."

As a translator myself, I'd say the translator should have been aware of this issue. Paying attention to the context is our job, and this being a book on feminism and considering that, as mentioned before, it was clear that the terms were referring to women, he should have used the correct gender.

On another note, however, there's also the reviewer and the publisher, so any of them could have been responsible for this mistake.

Thanks for all the answers.
So I also think that the translator should have been the one to pay attention to this in the first place. And then of course reviewer and publisher.
It's not like this is some special issue only studied linguists are aware of but something we are faced with in everyday life. Although I guess linguists are much more familiar with all the problems of this. Of course this discussion about feminist linguistics goes much further (and also addresses the issue of including transgender) but using the female term for women is something very common. And I might also add that this is something we have done for years and years and not just recently.

Kim wrote: "Thanks for all the answers.
So I also think that the translator should have been the one to pay attention to this in the first place. And then of course reviewer and publisher.
It's not like this ..."
That is one of the aspects why I always try to read a book in the original language, ( English and German for now, but I plan to learn more languages that are spoken by many), so I get the most out of it and don't have problems like translation issues.
Since this is a feminist book, the people responsible really should have been aware of that.
German is a really difficult language, yes, but as you said it's normal nowadays to use the specific pronoun for the specific sex of the person. Oh, and what I really hate is that the pronoun "man" is hardly ever used, although it's a perfect gender-neutral word, that exists in the German language since Old High German, and is cognate with the English word man, stemming from the same word, or being the same word more likely. In both languages, it's first meaning was "human being".

Anja wrote: "I came across this source during work last week: GESCHICKT GENDERN - Das Genderwörterbuch. It's similar to a thesaurus and offers gender-neutral alternatives to nouns that describe people. The Binn..."
Anja, I must say I like the Gender-Sternchen a lot, because it includes all genders (yes, there are more than two), as you pointed out already.
It is commonly used in the intersex community, of which we have spoken about a few months ago, do you remember? I once adressed an intersex individual using the Gender-Sternchen* and they really appreciated that.


Laure wrote: "Harm wrote: "So I can offer you the following thought-provoking question: we already know that Hermione can be black, but are we also ready to accept that she can be a man."

Skin color doesn't rea..."
We share an opinion here, it's about a profession, not a gender , therefore, gender shouldn't be needed to be dealt with in the first place. I think it gets better with the Binnen-I (between-I one could say) but I still hate the usage of the Binnen-I. It's only recognisable in text, and when spoken it isn't or you have to pause, which is a bit awkward to listen to.


Harm wrote: "Kim wrote: "Hey guys, something apart from the content of the book, but I wanted to share my observation with you.

So I read the book in German and I noticed something which I found kind of distur..."
Harm, we also have this in job offerings: Sofwareentwickler (m/w), and I think it's a good way to point out that both males and females are adressed. To only say "she" is oppressing males so I don't think that's a good way either. That's just moving the oppression from one gender to the other.
Oh, btw, I think that a male Hermione wouldn't have changed too much about her, except for how she reacted around the boys probably, but not her core values, knowledge, and bravery and friendship. They would have stayed the same I think. And that comes from a die-hard Potterhead, so I know her like my sister, if I had one.

MeerderWörter wrote: "Oh, btw, I think that a male Hermione wouldn't have changed too much about her, except for how she reacted around the boys probably, but not her core values, knowledge, and bravery and friendship. They would have stayed the same I think. And that comes from a die-hard Potterhead, so I know her like my sister, if I had one. "

I totally agree with that!

Well, she's the one person I'm most interested in since the beginning, and only now I begin to appreciate the other females too. So yes, like a sister, if I had one.

To be honest, I think we need to reinvent language, both in English and German, in order to make it more inclusive and fairer to everybody's gender, sex and special needs.

MeerderWörter wrote: "Oh, btw, I think that a male Hermione wouldn't have changed too much about her, except for how she reacted around the boys probably, but not her core values, knowledge, and bravery and friendship. They would have stayed the same I think. And that comes from a die-hard Potterhead, so I know her like my sister, if I had one."

I agree with what you say about her character, but I think some traits would have been different if she had been a boy. For example, I feel like Hermione must have received numerous comments about her gender in her life, "oh, you're very talented... for a girl". And I also have the feeling that if she had been a boy she'd have been less sensitive to the cause of house elves, because as a girl she already experienced discrimination. Is that just my imagination of the character?

Laure wrote: "oh, you're very talented... for a girl"
I'd go with this, but not the house elves. Sure, being a girl she is double-discriminated, and therefore she is more susceptible to recognise other discrimination, but I think she would have founded SPEW either way.

There is an episode on gender and feminism in the wizarding world at Mugglenet Academia, maybe we all should listen to and think about the ideas of these great folks over there?

MeerderWörter wrote: "Laure wrote: "oh, you're very talented... for a girl"
I'd go with this, but not the house elves. Sure, being a girl she is double-discriminated, and therefore she is more susceptible to recognise other discrimination, but I think she would have founded SPEW either way."

My bad. I tend to forget that Hermione is Muggle-born and that she's double discriminated. The "Muggle-born vs. Wizard-born" thing seems so pointless to me that I overlook it, which is of course super-wrong (oh-oh, white feminism here we are), so thanks a lot for the reminder.
Yeah, maybe a Muggle-born boy Hermione would also have founded the SPEW... I just think one recognizes/acknowledges discrimination much quicker when they have already experienced it.

MeerderWörter wrote: "There is an episode on gender and feminism in the wizarding world at Mugglenet Academia, maybe we all should listen to and think about the ideas of these great folks over there?"

Definitely :)
Could you post the link here?

Laure wrote: "I just think one recognizes/acknowledges discrimination much quicker when they have already experienced it."
Speaking from my own experience, I can say that double discrimination, or discrimination in general, makes one more susceptible to different/other forms of discriminations.

Laure wrote: "Could you post the link here? "

Sure, they do great stuff with HP (and are Professors, so for anyone who doubts it: HP is NOT just "a children's book".

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/0/1/3/0131c730...

They have about 50 lessons now, always a different topic, very interesting to hear!

Ellen wrote: "This is really interesting. I have been thinking a lot recently about how learning a language through classes and textbooks means you learn to speak it in a very traditional way, that doesn't refle..."

That's actually funny to me, because if I refer to my "lady doctor," I'm referring to my OB, whether it be male or female! Very different use of the same words, for sure!

I’ve never thought about this, but I realized I always think of a male when I’m reading something in another language and the gender isn’t defined, like ‘doctor’.
To some extent, I believe that’s because in my mother language I can’t think of a occupation/description/etc that you can say about someone that doesn’t have a male and a female version, the female version usually just being an a added at the end or in the place of an o (doutor/doutora, sapateiro/sapateira, etc).
I’ll definitely start paying more attention to this though, thanks for making me reflect about it!