Jane Austen discussion

Please discuss the last portion of the novel here, as well as any general overall thoughts and conclusions. Why do you some of us believe Persuasion speaks to us most of Jane's novels? Any last words on this portrayal of nobility -- or those who wanted to be? Is it important to think about Anne's life if Wentworth had not re-entered it (remember it was by happenstance not intentional)? Are there any summary reflections here at the end of the book about Anne, how she saw herself or how we relate to her?

Please pose your thoughts or questions. This is a thoughtful novel and one I have read and studied over the last 25 years. It never leaves me and I find it continues to have layers of meaning for me. It is always such a pleasure to discuss it with people.

ch. 19
Another painful reunion with Wentworth - he wants to rescue her again. He's always thinking of her health. His attitude towards her is different now.

Eliz. is horrid not to acknowledge Wentworth.

There's a weird head jump when the gossips are discussing Anne and her cousin's relationship and Wentworth is obviously listening.

Wentworth learned his lesson: don't trifle with young ladies and don't mistake headstrong spoiled girls for young ladies of determination.

The concert scene is painful. Anne is trying to be nice to her slimy cousin and flirt with Wentworth at the same time. It does spur Wentworth to jealousy but what if he didn't get over it? Mr. Elliot behaves childishly "I know a secret! Someone has been talking about you!" is a game kids play. Then he makes a sort-of-kind-of-half-hearted attempt at a proposal "I hope your name may never change." She doesn't even know what he means by that. His moves are not very smooth for all his polished manners. Then he turns out to be a self-interested gold digger who wants to sell Kellynch and make himself more money. This part of the novel isn't even necessary because Anne knows she doesn't trust him and would never marry him anyway.

I never liked Mrs. Smith. Was she interested in seeing Anne to renew old friendships or was she only interested in what Anne could do for her? I hate how gossipy her nurse is and though I feel for Mrs. Smith being an invalid and needing to participate in the social whirl vicariously, I would feel uncomfortable having a nurse that gossiped so much.

question from the editor: Why does Mrs. Clay send Mr. elliot to Union Street, what does he do for her there and what does this tell us about their relationship?

Annotations:
The Assembly Rooms allowed all types entrance hence not fashionable enough for Sir Walter.

Lady Dalrymple is in Bath and not London because she has an Irish title. Jane Austen was making a point that Bath society was superficial and pretentious. It's what she hated most about Bath. In Northanger Abbey you see Catherine's (and Jane's) wide-eyed excitement about being in the city and all the excitement that brings. By the time Persuasion takes place, the culture of Bath had changed and the Austen family fortunes have changed. Dear Jane knew what she was writing about from first hand experiences. People went to Bath to see and be seen but only people like Sir Walter and Lady Dalrymple who are small fish in a large pond like London but in Bath they are large fish in a small pond. Everyone in Bath will toady to Lady Dalrymple because she has a title and enough money to rent a whole house in Laura Place.

Wentworth is accepted by the Musgroves AND he's super rich so Sir Walter doesn't have much of a choice but to acknowledge Frederick. Times were changing with the Industrial Revolution too and those with money were not necessarily those with lineage dating back to William the Conqueror or Henry VIII.

Elizabeth is so obnoxious I find it hard to feel sympathy for her but as the eldest and unmarried sister in my family, I do feel a little something for her. I actually like Mary. Not because she has any redeeming qualities but she's an amusing character. She reminds me of my drama queen sister sometimes.

Ch. 20 notations:
Gratitude played a large role in early 19th c. debates about love and gender. An influential advice book A Father's Legacy to His Daughters (1774) insists that what women commonly call love is actually gratitude. When a gentleman formed an attachment to a young lady who was his friend, and she perceived it, she was filled with gratitude. in Austen's novels, gratitude leads to love. Wentworth thinks Louisa and Benwick's relationship would be stronger if it had originated in gratitude. However, his and Anne's courtship does not begin with gratitude. Persuasion is the one novel where "intensity of feeling moves nearer to the center of the book's professed values. It is Jane Austen's one romantic novel: the one book in which love is not the product of gratitude." (Laurence Lerner, 1967)

Mrs. Smith's property in the West Indies implies involvement in the slave trade, which was abolished in Britain in 1807. This would have played a role in her impoverishment during her widowhood. Slavery was still legal in the British Isles until 1833.

Mrs. Clay and Mr. Elliot's clandestine meaning is full of significance. A handshake between a man and a woman was a highly suggestive gesture. It implied a degree of intimacy and shows that the Elliots are blind to what is happening under their noses.

I read a variation by Susan Kaye on what would have happened if Wentworth came back into Anne's life too late or they didn't get together in the end, I don't remember which. I was horribly depressing. I think Anne would sink further into herself. She blossomed in Lyme with fresh air, exercise, friendship and admiration from two gentlemen. It marks a turning point for her.

She also overheard Wentworth say he prefers firmness of mind so I think she makes a slight effort to be stronger, like in the case of going to see Mrs. Smith and even not giving in to the flattery of her cousin.

Great reflections, QnPoohBear! I too find Mrs. Smith more of an equivocal figure as I reread and reread the book. I wish we saw more of their conversation about school days or other matters. Maybe had Jane Austen lived longer she might have amplified this book in ways like that, spread it out to three volumes. As it is, Mrs. Smith seems to be a potential user, treating her old friend as an opportunity. It has potential to be a complicated relationship, for sure.

Although the slave trade was abolished by this time, people could still own the slaves they already possessed until the slaves died. So the plantations in the West Indies would still be worked by slaves at the time of Persuasion. But the mere prospect of the end of slavery was changing the practices and economy of the sugar plantations. For instance, owners were incentivized to treat their slaves better, in the hope that they would continue to work there after slavery ended. Also, the value of the land was declining because sugar cultivation takes a lot out of the soil and it wasn’t being replenished properly.

I sometimes speculate that what might have been more of a factor in all those owners of West Indies properties who are mentioned in JA novels as having problems with their lands is that they might be dealing with the kinds of corruption and theft that would be rampant with absentee landlords. Managers cheating them, theft, that sort of thing.

Interesting comments, everyone. The concert scene certainly is memorable, and I like how Austen describes Mr. Elliot's attentions to Anne during the night "evil" because they drive Wentworth away. It is in the next chapter that the reader finds out how apt that word is for Mr. Elliot. I think he is one of Austen's worst cads. The only other thing I have to say about this section is:

Best. Letter. EVER.

I believe Anne had already set upon a journey of growth that was apart from admirers and apart from her love for Wentworth. I believe Persuasion is just as much about that as it is about the completion of the love story.

Does Laurence Lerner provide any further thoughts on gratitude and love in Jane's other novels, QN? I can't agree with his statement that you quoted that focused solely on Persuasion, but his fuller thoughts might provide more.

QN, that is an interesting observation that Mrs. Smith's investments would have been involved in a slave economy. It is much better to know 19th century history when reading these great novels.

Mary Musgrove is a special kind of person in that she wears all of her thoughts and motivations on the outside to the seasoned observer. It brings amusement, and some pity -- but she would be the person that would be easily tiring to be around. She would need an Anne to be her sister and be patient with her -- because many of the rest of us would be like the Musgroves and find it hard to call in on her very often.

Rachel, I have not been able to find much good in William Elliot either. He is just composed enough to be "considered" by Anne for a short time, but beyond that nothing real underneath.

Yes, the letter is sublime. The Anne and Frederick relationship has power, represented by that letter I think, that mostly is off stage. I know that is why this novel fascinates me. They had a relationship while young that everyone else wrote off. But there seems evidence that these two people had great understanding of each other. They say very little to each other until the very last portions of the book, because so much had already passed between them. Even with the long break between them, I think the link between them had accrued during the years. I believe that to be a great part of this novel -- otherwise it would not have the depth that it has.

Gratitude is mentioned as a basis for Elizabeth’s love for Darcy in Pride and Prejudice. Am currently reading Mansfield Park and will look for it there.

Thanks Abigail and QN. I think that topic is important to discuss because it does have some contradictions to other factors Austen's characters I think.

I agree....
About the gratitude aspect in P&P. Darcy did not want Elizabeth's gratitude, he wanted her love.

Yeah, best letter EVER.

Worst cad EVER.

Worst sister EVER.

Can we say worst father ever? I realize Mr. Bennet was indolent, but Sir Walter puts him to shame.

I believe Anne had a sixth sense about Mr. Elliot. She kept questioning why he had suddenly changed, why he was suddenly mending the breach with her father, why he suddenly turned his attentions away from Elizabeth to her. Poor Lady Russel just didn't see it and was no help to Anne.

The Lerner quote is in the book Persuasion : an annotated edition edited by Robert Morrison. I didn't write down anything else about gratitude but the full Lerner essay can be found in The truthtellers : Jane Austen, George Eliot, D.H. Lawrence and The Cambridge Companion to Jane Austen.

Captain Wentworth wins my undying love because of that letter. It is a million times better than the original draft of the chapter that lacked the letter. The whole scene where Anne is discussing who loves longest is my favorite. You know Wentworth is listening and taking to heart everything she says. Then he writes her the most beautiful love letter... :swoon:!

I don't think Mr. Eliot is Austen's worst cad by a long shot but certainly not someone I would marry or want my family member to marry.

This is a book I have read so many times I have lost count. So this time I decided to follow certain people and watch the character development. Because we know he turns out to be bad, it is easy to dislike him from the get-go. I wanted to avoid this and see why Anne does not fall for him. She has this sense he is not trustworthy.

Mrs Smith is the one that reveal his true character. I actually find that portion unnecessary in the book. With Captain Wentworth coming to Bath and Anne slowly starting to rebuild the relationship, Mr Elliot is there, and always doing or saying the wrong thing, not in an immoral sense, but in a way that grates on Anne.

First we have the episode where Mr Elliot is walking Anne home because there is not room in the carriage. He holds the correct conversation, but does not have enough sense to keep his mouth shut when Anne is in need of solitude. He gets under Anne's skin!

The incident at the concert was a lose-lose situation. I think Mr Elliot realized Captain Wentworth was a rival, but tearing Anne away from him by the lame excuse of her needing to translate the Italian for Miss Carteret did not help him. He just create a strike against himself.

So good or bad in character, I think he got under Anne's skin.

Persuasion is my favorite Jane Austen novel. It has its fair share of the usual Austen humor, sarcasm, wit but as the story of estranged lovers, it also tugs at my heartstrings. I think I feel Anne's pain when she thinks "Now they were as strangers; nay, worse than strangers, for they could never become acquainted. It was a perpetual estrangement."

About the chapters 19 thru end,

- I agree with QNPoohBear and Abigail about Mrs. Smith. What kind of 'friend' does not reveal the indiscretions of a man whose marriage proposal you might be considering just so that she can further her own interests after the marriage? And I wonder why Austen does not call her out on this.

- THE MOST BREATHTAKING LETTER EVER! which catapulted Captain Frederick Wentworth to the top of my literary crush list.

- Mr. Eliot redeems himself at least a little bit by choosing Anne when everybody was expecting him to marry Elizabeth. He does have the good sense to appreciate Anne's qualities. Anne is ‘one who is too modest for the world in general to be aware of half her accomplishments, and too highly accomplished for modesty to be natural in any other woman.' For most of the book, I think, he annoys the reader (and Anne) simply because he comes in between Anne and Wentworth.

- I find Charles Musgrove, for lack of a better word, 'super-cute'. So much of what he does in the book can be described as 'child-like'. I mean who else in Austen's world 'makes a face at unwanted guests and abuses them after they have left'!! He also actually uses the words 'Phoo! Phoo!' LOL

Charles Musgrove has always interested me, too! He seems a simple soul, but he has a kind of innate gentlemanliness. Not only is he patient (for the most part) with his obnoxious wife, but he has the grace to make Anne feel totally comfortable, like an old friend, in a situation (rejected marriage proposal) that could have been endlessly uncomfortable. Contrast his behavior to the sly digs that Mr. Collins can’t resist getting in against Elizabeth after his marriage to Charlotte!

This summer I saw a stage production of Persuasion in which the actor who played Charles Musgrove brought out this untold aspect of the story really well. Among other subtle touches, he kept looking wistfully at Anne whenever he was in a position where she couldn’t see him. I like to think of him like that.

Abigail, I hadn't consciously thought of the relationship between Charles and Anne. But now that you point it out, I realize that it is indeed a beautiful untold story

This last part I can really see Jane Austen scrambling to write the end how to bring all the arch stories to a successful end. She really had to work to bring Captian Wentworth to Anne and prove to her and everyone that he still loves her and that they belong together. And the scamers Mr.Elliott and Mrs. Clay they were so subtle usually the scamers in the story are blatant. Ms. Austen wrote in that Anne barely knew what they were doing without the help of Mrs. Smith.

I liked the Musgroves maybe because I grew up with people very similar to them. I am the same as Ms. Austen in that I like the country. The rejected engagement between her and Charles looks to me just not the right timing for either one of them which sometimes happens.

I have read Persuasion over and over just like the rest of you. I love it! I feel that what Ms. Austen is trying to convey is that no matter how depressing or impossible the situation is do not give in to depression or discouragement; to offset your own situation help those around you and remember there are others who are depending on you. And there are those who maybe have done everything they can and still could use help. And of course that it is never too late for love.