The History Book Club discussion

I think chronicler Cieza de Leon’s description of the torture of Almagro’s emissary, Rui Diaz, at the hands of Manco Inca contained one of the grandest understatements I have come across in a long time, “…and having tied him to a post they shot a [hard, hand-sized] fruit that we call guavas at him with slings, which bothered him greatly…” I can only imagine that that he was “bothered.” (p.269) The one theme that seems to run the length of this story thus far is the cruelty and violence of the time.

Steve

This story certainly has a lot of dramatic twists and turns. Seemingly out of nowhere, Almagro once again arrives on the scene. If this were an adventure movie, I think we would find it quite implausible. :-)

I am shocked at how badly the Spanish treated Manco Inca. As he summarized this treatment in his letter to the Spanish king (p. 256):

“How is it that the great lord from Castile [Spain] orders that they [the Spaniards] seize my wives and take me prisoner with a chain around my neck and that they urinate on me and spit in my face? [How is it that] Gonzalo Pizarro, brother of the elder lord [Francisco Pizarro], stole my wife and has her still? And that Diego Maldonado threatened me [with death] and demanded gold, saying that he, too, was a lord?"..

"And he also said that they burned his eyebrows with a lit candle".

This gratuitous cruelty and sadism seems pretty stupid in addition to being immoral. I wonder how much easier their goal of subduing the Inca would have been had the Pizarros been a bit more sophisticated in their treatment of the ruler.

It is hardly surprising that Manco Inca decided that he really couldn't trust any of the Spanish when Amalgro tried to negotiate. He was absolutely right.

Stevelee wrote: "I think chronicler Cieza de Leon’s description of the torture of Almagro’s emissary, Rui Diaz, at the hands of Manco Inca contained one of the grandest understatements I have come across in a long..."

Yes Steve and in many parts of the world the cruelty continues. And it seems that the cruelty was on both sides.

Manco Inca certainly had every reason to feel as he did about the Spaniards - appalling behavior. You have to wonder if some of the Spaniards felt that they were far from Spain and were above reproach and had sort of the attitude that what happens in Peru stays in Peru - or who is to know - so they were all obviously exhibiting their worst behavior and maybe felt that they could do whatever they wanted.

Very true, Bentley. Being far from home and the normal social controls must have given them a feeling of tremendous power. And that sense of power can make certain kinds of people do terrible things. It reminds me of the abuse that went on at Abu Ghraib.

Steve is so right about the cruelty of the times. Both the Spanish Inquisition and Queen Mary of England burned "heretics," at the stake and there was the sentence of being hung, drawn, and quartered for "traitors" in England.

There are so many quotations about the corruption of power:

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

"It is not only the slave or serf who is ameliorated in becoming free... the master himself did not gain less in every point of view,... for absolute power corrupts the best natures."

The example of Abu Ghraib. is apt - the folks who have the power think very little of the folks who they feel are "evil" or in the "bad category" so they believe who would care about such human beings and they should "get what they deserved". And then the folks who have the power become as bad as the others who are imprisoned. In fact in some cases - worse.

This was really a vivid description of Manco Inca's retreat to the land of the Antis. It reminded me of just how disadvantaged the Inca were without horses or vehicles of any kind. Manco and the nobles were still being carried in litters- not a very secure or flexible way of travel!

The transport of the mummies also strikes me as quite macabre, but I am sure that the belief that their ancestors were coming with them was a great comfort to Manco's followers.


Manco himself rode in a royal litter, no doubt seated on a low throne, or duho, and with a canopy overhead. On additional litters rode other Inca elites, as well as the mummified bodies of Manco’s father, Huayna Capac, his grandfather Tupac Inca Yupanqui, and his great-grandfather and the creator of the empire, Pachacuti. The mummies’ attendants walked beside them, making sure that flies did not annoy these still powerful emperor-gods. Manco didn’t dare leave his ancestors behind—nor did he want to risk relocating the capital of his dwindling empire without their guidance and aid.

MacQuarrie, Kim (2007-05-29). The Last Days of the Incas (p. 278). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition.

One thing I would like to know more about but there seems very little mentioned, and that is the native auxiliary warriors who fought on the side of the Spanish – I believe that with Almagro’s troops there was some 12,000 to 15,000 of these. I wonder how they were treated by the Spanish leadership. There was a discussion of them during the battle of Cuzco, where they were the ones on the rooftops doing the fighting and putting out the fires while the Spanish took cover inside – would be interesting to know what inspired such bravery and loyalty.

Steve

Kathy,

You are probably correct in that through the Spanish, they saw a way to escape the yoke of Incas. I wonder if this worked out for them. (My ignorance of the Peruvian history is showing.)

Steve

One side issue that I found interesting was how valuable recovered Spanish clothes were when Manco's new capital of Vitcos was looted (p. 290). I hadn't imagined the Spanish having "worn the same, ragged clothing for years." Presumably fashioning clothing from local materials was either not a high priority, or perhaps culturally unthinkable.

I think part of the behavior on both sides was ambition. Everyone wanted to have power, land, and control of major cities and armies. The reasons for this may have varied slightly, but ambition is what keeps setting these groups back. Conflict over who was emperor on the Inca side, and conflicts over who was governor or received land grants on the Spanish side nearly destroys them at different points.

I think it is very telling when Almagro suddenly realizes that some of his actions might be detrimental to keeping in the king's good grace(p294.) This thought at least causes him to think about what he is doing, regardless of what happens later.

The mention of the impoverished beginnings of many of the conquistadors conjures up a world where those who had any aspirations at all had to fight for everything they acquired. There was no inheritance or comfortable job to fall back on. They seemed to bring that habit and mindset to the new world, and had to be sure to stay in the good graces of the king and others who had the power to send them back to a life of poverty.