J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

Hi Tolkien Readers:) This is our thread for chapters 19-24!

I have read chapter 19 and really enjoyed it. It is long. (And so is this post!)

1. I loved that Beren had kinship with animals and how that contributed to the plot; plus that he feared captivity more than death.
2. Lots of wickedness instigated by Morgoth, Sauron, and the orcs, vivid things like: and he held up the hand of Barahir that he had cut off as a token for Sauron ... and the ring of Felagund was on that hand.
3. Quite romantic and gentle when Beren and Luthien fall for one another, a striking contrast to point 2 above.
4. OF COURSE Thingol refused Beren, a mere mortal, the hand of his daughter. There are many many points in this love story that mirror the Aragorn and Arwen story in LoTR. Tolkien must have drawn from this tale for his greater work.
5. Setting Beren the task of retrieving a Silmaril—the gemstones cursed with hate and set in Morgoth's iron crown—as the terms of betrothal with Luthien was just great story weaving.
6. I smiled over Luthien's Rapunzel-like scene.
7. Her healing of Beren reminds me of Arwen's healing of Frodo outside Rivendell.
8. And there is Angrist which cuts through iron "as if it were green wood" which, of course, will be very necessary to the success of Beren's quest.
9. Beren and Luthien's entry into Angband, and their fight with Morgoth, Huan, and Carcharoth: I was glued to those 2-3 pages.
10. How many people does Thorondor/the eagles save???? A lot, lol. Is it Maedhros from the side of the cliff, was it Beren they flew to Gondolin, they'll save Gandalf from Saruman's tower, Frodo and Sam from at the end of LoTR, the hobbits on their way to the Lonely Mountain? Middle Earth would have fallen into complete and utter darkness if it weren't for the eagles!
11. Carcharoth taking the Silmaril by bitting off Beren's hand, and then leaving him poisoned to near death ... Huan killing Carcharoth but also being poisoned to death, that Beren's hand was found holding the jewel "incorrupt", these were great twists and turns. I loved how Huan always came to Beren's aid, so it was sad when he died.
12. Again, the choice put before Luthien is very similar to the choice put before Arwen, sacrifice your immortal life in Valimor or return to Middle Earth and live and die as a mortal with Beren, without any guarantees.
13. Another nod to meditation? "And Manwe sought counsel in his inmost thoughts, where the will of Illuvator was revealed."

Does anyone know, was Tolkien a mystic?

So this chapter was a "real" short story, and engaged me more than many of the earlier chapters we had to slog through to get here. But if I hadn't hung in through those chapters for the background, I'm not sure I would have enjoyed this chapter/story as much as I did.

Heidi wrote: "Does anyone know, was Tolkien a mystic?"

No, but he was a Catholic.

But he could be a Catholic and a mystic; Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, St. Francis, etc. There just seems to be a mystic bent to his story building and story telling.

Heidi wrote: "I have read chapter 19 and really enjoyed it. It is long. (And so is this post!)

1. I loved that Beren had kinship with animals and how that contributed to the plot; plus that he feared captivity ..."

I really enjoyed this chapter too! As a chapter I think it's quite long but as a story I want more of Beren and Luthien :D

Do you know that there will be a Beren and Luthien book publish next year? If you don't know yet, then here it is, . But I read in Indonesian Tolkien Society that it will not be a full novel, more likely a documentation of the changing in Beren and Luthien's story and characters that Tolkien wrote from 1900s till 1972 and then edited by Christopher Tolkien for The Silmarillion. But since it hasn't published yet, I think I can just hope that it's a full novel, because I don't think I can read another documentation like HoME. Not now, anyway. Maybe later, hahaha.

Agree, the romantic side of this story feels like a contrast with all the wicked things brought by Morgoth, Sauron, Carcharoth and orcs. But I also liked how Celegorm and Curufin are still in their true characters as Feanor's sons. So again even in this story, we still have that back-stabbing moments.

Tolkien himself thinks that the story of Beren and Luthien is the core of the legendarium. And in a way, I think it's close to his heart, so close that in his and his wife, Edith, gravestone are written:



(Correct me if I'm wrong) And Beren and Luthien is the second couple (after Tuor and Idril) that have mixed race marital, elf and men. Not to mention that Tolkien wrote this tale first, long before he wrote Aragorn and Arwen. So I think it's understandable that Aragon and Arwen tale is similar to Beren and Luthien.

But what I love most about the tale is in Aragorn and Arwen, the two races is finally come together, as Aragorn is the descendant of Elros, Elrond's brother. It's pretty fascinating, to be honest. Especially if I see their family tree :)

I do think that Luthien's escape a bit reminded me of Rapunzel. But Luthien has cloak that really awesome!

7. Her healing of Beren reminds me of Arwen's healing of Frodo outside Rivendell. I think this is only in FoTR the movie, right? It's been a while since I read LoTR but if I'm not wrong, it's Glorfindel who ride with Frodo after the Weathertop scene.

Middle Earth would have fallen into complete and utter darkness if it weren't for the eagles! Hahaha true! Thorondor and the eagles are always there in critical situation or impossible place to go.

so it was sad when he died I was so sad when Huan died. I'm more sad knowing he died than when I read Finrod Felagund died. Well I don't want Finrod to die but I kinda expected it, as most of major characters are died here, but Huan was a twist and surprise for me.

First -- Tuor and Idril come after.

Mary wrote: "First -- Tuor and Idril come after."

Thanks Mary :)

Chapter 20 (I think this chapter is schedule for January reading, but since my reading slump two weeks ago, I couldn't find any book that appeal me. Not the case for The Silmarillion, after I reread chapter 19 I feel much better. So I decided to read chapter 20 yesterday :D).

Since the beginning of this chapter, I already know that there will be too many death and blood in it. It's just sad reading a chapter about battle that I already know that Morgoth will win it.

Although Maedhros thinks it is possible to defeat Morgoth, I do think it's pretty impossible. Morgoth is still too strong for them; he's not in a rush, he builds his army and alliance while Maedhros, though he has the Union of Maedhros, he still lack of alliance, especially from his kin.

I wonder if somehow in the future Feanor's descendants will have good relationship with Fingolfin and Finarfin's descendant despite they being constrained by Feanor oath.

And what if Meadhros asked Thingol nicely without threatening him, to be in the Union of Maedhros and give the Silmaril to him, will he give it to him and go to war with him? If he's in the Union of Maedhros, there's a chance that Melian will help them too. And Melian being a Maia surely a great help for them. She's stronger than the Elves.

I also think that they join the Easterling is like gambling. I mean I get the impression, (or maybe it's just me? assuming) that Easterling cannot be trusted in previous chapters. Sure, they aren't all bad, but look at what Ulfang did. If it weren't for his betrayal, there's a chance the Union of Maedhros can win the war. On the other hand, this even more makes sense with what happen with Easterling in the Lord of the Rings. So once again, I'm amazed by how neat Tolkien tangled all these things in Middle-earth universe.

And reading about Bor and Ulfang, makes me curious which one of them are higher (as in status and whatnot), as they both are chieftain. Does it also mean that there is (different) level (or maybe some kind tribes) in Easterling? I hope you understand what I mean :)

It's surprising me that this war is also an alliance between three races; Elves, Men and Dwarves. And knowing that Elves and Dwarves still have good relationship here in First Age, while it's pretty bad in the Lord of the Rings in Third Age (or is it Fourth Age?), before Legolas be friend with Gimli, I wonder when their relationship becomes bad and what causes it?

And...there's another name that is used by different character in the Lord of the Rings. After Boromir in previous chapters, here comes Haldir. But he's a Man here while in the Lord of the Rings he is an Elf. I don't think it's coincidence but did Tolkien really meant it? writing two different characters with the same name. With Boromir, it's kinda make sense, I think. As they are both Men, but not so much with Haldir. Do Elves really know about Men's ancestral? They live longer than Men, so they knowledge of them are surely more than Men about the Elves. But do they really pay attention to Men? And which one comes first, Haldir in the Lord of the Rings or Haldir in here? Or are they the same age? But then it means that Haldir in the Lord of the Rings is way older than Elrond. If it is the case, does it possible? Am I asking to many questions? :D

There are times when Tolkien is almost as bad at repeating names as real life.

Mary wrote: "There are times when Tolkien is almost as bad at repeating names as real life."

I think it's fine repeating names if it's from the same race, but it will be different if it happens in different race.

So in this case, it's just coincidence then? And Tolkien didn't realize that there's already Haldir the Man when he wrote Haldir the Elf in the LoTR?

If it's the case, I think it's (maybe) because there are so many things he wants to tell and write in Middle-earth universe he kinda mixed up the names.

Happy New Year, everyone!

Since I'm still captivated with The Silmarillion and cannot stop reading it, I decided to continue my reading to chapter 21. But since I don't know if you guys have read too, or not, I think it's better if I hide my thoughts in that spoilers things. And when you have read it, I will just delete that spoilers warning :)

What a story I just read! (view spoiler)[I think it's one of the most tragic stories I have ever read. What happened to Húrin and his children were mostly because of the curse, it began with Húrin but then it was also because Túrin's proud and irresponsible behavior that led him into those bad luck. I couldn't tell if his bad luck were because of the curse or not, but for me his characters were also leading him to his downfall. In this case he's a bit similar to Fëanor.

I also couldn't help to think what Galurung and Brandir said about him were right, in a way. He was indeed a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin. So it was better when ...Turambar is dead; and those tidings are good. Because he also brought so many bad things and luck to people around him, not only to himself and his family. But what do you guys think?

The interest part about this chapter is the way Morwen asked Thingol to raise  Túrin in Doriath and hide his true identity. It's similar to Aragorn's childhood when his father died and his mother asked Elrond to raise him and eventually he love him too.

It looks like Tolkien liked to make similar things happened to different characters in different times. But it makes sense so I don't mind with it. (hide spoiler)]

Rachmi wrote: "Heidi wrote: "I have read chapter 19 and really enjoyed it. It is long. (And so is this post!)

1. I loved that Beren had kinship with animals and how that contributed to the plot; plus that he fea..."


Hehe, Rach, your's is long too!

Okay ...

1. No I had no idea about the Beren Luthien book to be published. It says it's 304 pp. Hopefully that means more of a novel and not just expanded with extra stuff. If we read it, I'd suggest AFTER CoH, TH, and LoTR ... just sayin;) We'll be Tolkien experts by then!
2. You're right about Celegorm and Curufin, good point.
3.Oh ... awesome picture of Tolkien's wife headstone ... how touching. Definitely shows the direct inspiration:)
4. The mixed marriage, elf and men, is an excellent point. What do you think that meaning meant to Tolkien? Why was it so important, central to his love stories? That the woman, elf, immortal chooses the mortal life for love? Is it a nod to the best side of humanity? Or that that kind of love itself, raises up or brings about the best in man/mortal? And elf?
5. I'm really a bad one to know the difference from the books to the movies. I read the books so long ago and have watched the movies so many times, I just don't know! Which is one of the reasons I want to read the books again and then watch the movies, again. JUST LOTR!!!!
6. I did find Huan's death really sad. It was so interesting that he "spoke" three times. That, and the whole relationship between Huan and Beren really drove him the human/animal bond.

Rachmi wrote: "Chapter 20 (I think this chapter is schedule for January reading, but since my reading slump two weeks ago, I couldn't find any book that appeal me. Not the case for The Silmarillion, after I rerea..."

I'm going to wait to read and comment after I read ch. 20!!!! :D

Rachmi wrote: "Happy New Year, everyone!

Since I'm still captivated with The Silmarillion and cannot stop reading it, I decided to continue my reading to chapter 21. But since I don't know if you guys have read ..."

Ooh, wow! You're going for it. Good for you! I'll catch up and comment ....

YES, Happy New Year!

How do you say that in Indonesian?

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Heidi wrote: "I have read chapter 19 and really enjoyed it. It is long. (And so is this post!)

1. I loved that Beren had kinship with animals and how that contributed to the plot; p..."

Hehehe, I just couldn't help it! There are so many things I want to discuss whenever I finish one chapter.

I do hope Beren and Luthien is a novel. Just check on the BookDepository (it's already open for pre-order) it stated Painstakingly restored from Tolkien's manuscripts and presented for the first time as a continuous and standalone story, the epic tale of Beren and Luthien will reunite fans of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings with Elves and Men, Dwarves and Orcs and the rich landscape and creatures unique to Tolkien's Middle-earth. Now I'm pretty sure it's a novel :) And I'm agree with you about our reading schedule. It's better if we read CoH next and go back to TH and LOTR. It's been a long time since I read either TH and LOTR I forgot the detail.

I never think (seriously) whether Tolkien has another (deep) meaning when he paired the immortal elf with mortal human, but I'd like to think that it shows that somehow they are equal. And they have choices (for Elves to become mortal because they choose it and Man can be an immortal if Illuvatar (or is it Valar?) wants it).

And another thing, I think it's also a nod to the best side of humanity, just like you said. Although Man has limited time in this world, I think it's the best kind of thing. I mean I cannot imagine to live forever, a very long time, watching and feeling everything around me die and vanish and rebuild again and again. So although death is a sad thing, it's also a blessing, in a way. And that way, we can live to the fullest, knowing that we have only limited time here. That's what I thought, anyway :)

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Happy New Year, everyone!

Since I'm still captivated with The Silmarillion and cannot stop reading it, I decided to continue my reading to chapter 21. But since I don't know if you ..."

I never thought that TS is a perfect cure for my reading slump! what with those headache I got mostly in the beginning Lol. But it is the best kind of medicine for my reading slump. I started to take notes and highlights everything that interest me, and suddenly I couldn't stop reading it, like really couldn't stop! Hahaha. I actually wanted to continue reading it, it's only 5 more chapters to go, but I know it will overwhelm this thread if I keep writing my thoughts about chapters you guys haven't read yet, Lol. So I better stop now :)

Happy New Year in Indonesian is Selamat Tahun Baru. Happy means Selamat, New means Baru, Year means Tahun :)

Rachmi wrote: "I do hope Beren and Luthien is a novel. Just check on the BookDepository (it's already open for pre-order) ..."

So ... we'll have to think about adding it after we get through LoTR, lol ...

I though Children of Hurin happens chronologically before The Hobbit, is that right? That is why I was thinking we should read it in that order.

I like that, that humans and elves are somehow equal—just different. Also, that they have choices. I also like that love is a bridge they can cross to "reach" one another:)

I can't remember the chapter now, but at the end ... was it Beor? Yes, there was that kind of powerful part about mortality when Beor died.

Rachmi wrote: I mean I cannot imagine to live forever, a very long time, watching and feeling everything around me die and vanish and rebuild again and again. So although death is a sad thing, it's also a blessing, in a way. And that way, we can live to the fullest, knowing that we have only limited time here.

Just beautiful:)

Rachmi wrote: "I never thought that TS is a perfect cure for my reading slump! what with those headache I got mostly in the beginning Lol. But it is the best kind of medicine for my reading slump. I started to take notes and highlights everything that interest me, and suddenly I couldn't stop reading it, like really couldn't stop! Hahaha...."

Oh, that is awesome. I'm a really interactive too (blushes) as I underline and/or highlight, make notes and comments upon all the juicy bits I love.

So GLAD, TS pulled you out of your reading slump!

Chapter 20
I loved how Luthien healed “the winter of Thingol with a touch of her hand”, plus it was nice to have mini-epilogue of Beren and Luthien.

I agree with Rachmi, it was kind of another depressing chapter:) or maybe :( and we knew it was going to be when we started reading it.

Rachmi, on your thoughts about what if Maedhros asked Thingol nicely, I’m thinking the answer is no, because: (again, I think this like the ring in The Lord of the Rings) “And every day that he looked upon the Silmaril the more he (Thingol) desired to keep it forever; for such was its power.”

Also, similar to LoTR (it seems Tolkien worked out many themes in TS that he would use in LoTR), we see the coming together of the elves, dwarves, and men to fight Morgoth, of course, it’s LoTR there is Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn.

In this battle the men are split, those who fight with Morgoth and betray Maedhros, et al and those who are loyal to them. Of course, without the betrayal, Morgoth (likely?) would have lost. It’s sweet that when the battle is won by Morgoth he cedes the men who served him the least fertile land:)

So Rachmi you made a great point: It was really risky for Maedhros to include the Easterlings in his coaltion!

Boy, this chapter had a lot of people and places … names, names, names!

Rachmi, sometimes I think Tolkien's repeat usage of a particular name may be just because he partículary liked the name. TS was published posthumously, so he may never have intended to publish it, so if he liked a particular name or theme he could lift it from TS to use in LoTR.

I loved the effect of Fingon’s white helmet, when he put it on and … the white flame that arose from it when it was cloven …

The tactical points of the battle were well-developed for me, and some of the images were gorgeous: “the light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds” and “and their rank shown like a river of steel in the sun.”

I loved the scene where Azaghal the dwarf killed Glaurung .. again it reminded me of Aeowyn killing the Nazgul in Return of the King; is that just in the movie?

There was a lot of gore at the end, the bridge and hill made from corpses …

So here at least we have the story of how Elves and Men came to be estranged.

A bit of foreshadowing with Turgon and Morgoth at the end of the chapter?

Eowyn kills the Nazgul in the book. With a little help from Merry.

Mary wrote: "Eowyn kills the Nazgul in the book. With a little help from Merry."

Thanks, Mary, and Happy New Year:)

Happy New Year!

Yes, Eowyn kills the Witch King is both in the book and in the movie. It's one of my favorite parts from LoTR, what with Witch King cannot killed by men. When I first read it, I thought men here as male, but as Eowyn says that she's no man and Merry is definitely isn't a man as he's a hobbit. It's like a riddle to me :)

Heidi wrote: "Chapter 20
I loved how Luthien healed “the winter of Thingol with a touch of her hand”, plus it was nice to have mini-epilogue of Beren and Luthien.

I agree with Rachmi, it was kind of another dep..."

I think you're right on Maedhros asked Thingol nicely. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that it will be no, Maedhros won't ask Thingol nicely. Everyone wants Silmaril so it won't make sense if it doesn't bring chaos. And in a way, I think it won't make sense too to Maedhros' personalities.

Rachmi, sometimes I think Tolkien's repeat usage of a particular name may be just because he partículary liked the name. TS was published posthumously, so he may never have intended to publish it, so if he liked a particular name or theme he could lift it from TS to use in LoTR.

Yes, I think this mostly what happened. Tolkien was still working on TS and basically it was his life long work when he died. It's just with Tolkien works, when (almost) everything has meaning I cannot help not to think certain things, hahaha.

Rachmi wrote: "It's one of my favorite parts from LoTR, what with Witch King cannot killed by men. When I first read it, I thought men here as male, but as Eowyn says that she's no man and Merry is definitely isn't a man as he's a hobbit. It's like a riddle to me :) ..."

Oh, yes, it's absolutely one of my favorite parts too. It's awesome in the movie, doesn't Eowyn say: "I am no man!"

hehe.

As far as the "glitches" or "unfinished" or "unrefined" aspects of TS and any other of Tolkien's posthumously published works, we just have to give it a pass. If he'd "finished" I'm sure he would have cleaned up, or fixed whatever discrepancies etc. there were in names ...

Heidi wrote: " 4. The mixed marriage, elf and men, is an excellent point. What do you think that meaning meant to Tolkien? Why was it so important, central to his love stories? That the woman, elf, immortal chooses the mortal life for love? Is it a nod to the best side of humanity? Or that that kind of love itself, raises up or brings about the best in man/mortal? And elf? ..."

Rachmi wrote: "I mean I cannot imagine to live forever, a very long time, watching and feeling everything around me die and vanish and rebuild again and again. So although death is a sad thing, it's also a blessing, in a way. And that way, we can live to the fullest, knowing that we have only limited time here."

Of these interesting thoughts gave me an idea to bring out the story—excerpts from Tolkien that related to the topics. It's called Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (The Debate of Finrod and Andreth) published in Morgoth's Ring, History of Middle Earth, vol. 10, Part Four.
It was a discussion between two characters, Finrod Felagund, an Elven King, and Andreth, a mortal woman that took place during the Siege of Angband (though when originally written was placed much later) and deals with the metaphysical differences between Elves and Men and the imbalances between their fates. Andreth, when she was a young girl met Aegnor, brother of Finrod and felt in love to him.

These are some parts of their conversation.

‘I have not asked for comfort,’ said Andreth. 'For what do I need it?’
'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,’ said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanár, the Sharp-flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.’
'Say on!’ said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter’s grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!’
'Alas!’ said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth, woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?’
'I did not say that it was ever my hope,’ answered Andreth. 'And even were it so, I would still cry: why should this hurt come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?’
'Because we were made so, close kin,’ said Finrod. 'But we did not make ourselves, and therefore we, the Eldar, did not set the gulf. Nay, adaneth, we are not lordly in this, but pitiful. That word will displease thee. Yet pity is of two kinds: one is of kinship recognized, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.’
'Speak of neither to me!’ said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?’
'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?’ said Finrod. ’Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanár, the Sharp-flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go before thee and he will not wish to return.’

...

Darkness fell in the room. He took her hand in the light of the fire. ‘Whither go you?’ she said.
‘North away,’ he said: ‘to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence – that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes.’
‘Will he be there, bright and tall, and the wind in his hair? Tell him. Tell him not to be reckless. Not to seek danger beyond need!’
‘I will tell him,’ said Finrod. ‘But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior, Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt.
‘But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother – and me.’

--ended

I was very excited when I found this story. Finally there's an elf man-a mortal woman love story besides an elf woman-a mortal man story that we've already known though it was not a happy ending story. Compared to Beren and Luthien's or Tuor and Idril's, I'd prefer to choose this Aegnor-Andreth story as a cross-raced couple.

You'll find beautiful pictures of Aegnor-Andreth- Finrod story in illustration thread. I'll see you there...

Wita wrote: " Finally there's an elf man-a mortal woman love story besides an elf woman-a mortal man story that we've already known though it was not a happy ending story.,..."

Wita, this is awesome! Thank you for sharing this. I saw the pictures on the picture thread and was confused:) Now I know what they are and can go back and enjoy them!

BTW, Wita, nice to hear from you again. We did miss you:)

It's called Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (The Debate of Finrod and Andreth) published in Morgoth's Ring, History of Middle Earth, vol. 10, Part Four.

I have read this story before, but I don't remember where, Lol. I don't have HoME vol. 10 so I never read it, maybe from the internet somewhere :)

It is an interesting story, mainly because like what you said, the one who is immortal/elf is the man while other cross-raced couple are the female elves.

And yes, nice to have you back, Wita :)

Heidi wrote: " 1. No I had no idea about the Beren Luthien book to be published. It says it's 304 pp. Hopefully that means more of a novel and not just expanded with extra stuff. If we read it, I'd suggest AFTER CoH, TH, and LoTR ... just sayin;) We'll be Tolkien experts by then!..."

Heidi, your last lines made me laugh... Yep, we'll be qualified enough to be called a Tolkien expert then. It's like, "Now, what else in Middle-earth that we don't know about,huh?" .. ehehe

Btw, what is our next reading schedule after Children of Hurin? Is it The Hobbit or LoTR?

About Beren and Luthien standalone book, I believe they will give those kind of extra stuff that will enrich our reading references to the story. I think the book will have more 'rich' content than Children of Hurin. Tevildo, Morgoth & his Balrog army and werewolves & vampires are some of the expanded extra stuff in the book as rumour has it. Have you guys heard about this?

Wita wrote: "Btw, what is our next reading schedule after Children of Hurin? Is it The Hobbit or LoTR? ..."

Wita, I'm thinking we should read The Hobbit after CoH since chronologically it comes before LoTR. I consider TH and LoTR Tolkien's major works, so I'd like to read those before we get into any of the others. I think TS and CoH will give us enough Middle Earth history to be pretty savvy Tolkien readers of TH and LoTR. Then if we want to keep going as a group, we can.

I haven't heard anything about the Beren and Luthien standalone book.

So ... I read Ch. 21 yesterday. Wita, is this the story that is expanded in CoH?!?!!?

Okay, So I read Ch. 21 Of Turin Tarambar yesterday.

Glad we just had one chapter this month because it was a long one. Long but good.

Rachmi, where are your comments? Did you hold off? I know you said this is now your favorite chapter. It's really good. My goodness, so much going on.

Rather than breaking it all down, I'm going to try to write some of my overall thoughts.

Turin Turambar is such a hugely human character, i.e. he's raised without his mother and father ... and he struggles with trust, issues of right and wrong, forgiveness, and which side to fight on, yet overall he has amazing achievements: Killing Glaurung, and inspires intense love, Beleg and Niniel.

Wasn't Tolkien raised as an orphan, didn't he fight in World War II? Or at least serve in some form? I wondered after I finished the chapter if Tolkien saw himself in Turin? Without family and struggling to find his north star, right path, duty etc?

It was interesting to me that Tolkien — who most often left sex scenes/relationships closed door/to the imagination — went with incest here. It worked, and added a darker element to the story.

Wasn't it sad that Laileth (laughter) died at 3 years old ...

Tolkien's father died when he was a very small child and his mother some years later.

He served during WWI, not II. His son Christopher served in WWII -- and the others may have as well, but Christopher is memorable because Tolkien sent him chapters of LOTR as they were written.

Which may indeed have affected this chapter. It was the one that defeated me the first time I tried to read this book when I was 12 or so.

Mary wrote: "Tolkien's father died when he was a very small child and his mother some years later.

He served during WWI, not II. His son Christopher served in WWII -- and the others may have as well..."

Mary, thanks for filling in all those blanks:) Oy ... World War I! That's interesting he sent Christoper LoTR chapters while he was writing them. But then again, didn't he write The Hobbit for them? (His children?)

When you say defeated you, was it because it was dark? Sad? Or something else?

It was too dark for me to get through.

Oh, that makes sense. It also kind of supports/proves the Turin Tarambar's story as "The Tale of Grief"

Heidi wrote: "Okay, So I read Ch. 21 Of Turin Tarambar yesterday.

Glad we just had one chapter this month because it was a long one. Long but good.

Rachmi, where are your comments? Did you hold off? I know yo..."

So sorry for my late reply! My thoughts about chapter 21 is in message 11. I hide it in a spoiler tag. Should I remove the tag now?

Strangely, I didn't see the connection when I read this chapter to Tolkien life but I agree with you, there are so many things that similar between Turin and Tolkien. I never heard that Tolkien saw himself in Turin though. He's more like Gandalf to me :D

Mary wrote: "It was too dark for me to get through."

You read The Silmarillion when you were 12 year old? Whoa...

I don't think I can understand it if I read it as young as you were :) I'm an adult now but I had problem at the beginning of the book.

Rachmi wrote: "Happy New Year, everyone!

Since I'm still captivated with The Silmarillion and cannot stop reading it, I decided to continue my reading to chapter 21. But since I don't know if you guys have read ..."

Rachmi, thanks for thunking me on the head and reminding me you read the chapter in January!

So your perspective gives me lots of thoughts:D

1. I didn't know/remember? Aragorn is also an orphan. So that is Turin, Aragorn, and Tolkien, all orphans:) hehe. Look how different Aragorn and Turin turned out.

2. Rachmi wrote: I also couldn't help to think what Galurung and Brandir said about him were right, in a way. He was indeed a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin. So it was better when ...Turambar is dead; and those tidings are good. Because he also brought so many bad things and luck to people around him, not only to himself and his family. But what do you guys think?

So this brings up a very powerful theme: naming, declaring, gossiping, the power of the word to define ... when we say something, when we try to define something, can we make it true if people believe what we say? I thought it was so interesting that Turin was constantly verbally maligned, attributed the worst motives etc. Were these accusations/observations true? Or were they ... only partially correct? I read a book awhile back, and Chance focused quite a bit on the "power of language". Being a philologist, Tolkien was obviously very aware of this and used it in his writing/stores.

3. I think Tolkien could see himself in both Turin and Gandalf;) His younger self maybe in Turin and his older wiser much more experienced self in Gandalf. Interesting, Tolkien was a Capricorn by zodiac, the God Pan and Father Time/Saturn are both archetypes of that sign, kind of polar opposites. Turin has the God Pan quality, living out in the woods and being kind of wild and careless, unbound by culture and society, while Father Time/Saturn ... well that is wisdom born of grave experience and that certainly is Gandalf!

4. OMG! We're reading CoH next, is it going to be totally depressing?!?!?!?

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Happy New Year, everyone!

Since I'm still captivated with The Silmarillion and cannot stop reading it, I decided to continue my reading to chapter 21. But since I don't know if you ..."

1. If you want to refresh your memory, since you don't remember it :) I think you can reread LoTR appendix A (if your LoTR divides into three books, then all of the appendixes, including appendix A, are in RoTK. There's a chapter called The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. That's the back story of Aragorn is told.

2. the power of the word to define ... when we say something, when we try to define something, can we make it true if people believe what we say? I just finished chapter 22 and realized that there are so many curses in TS and now I wonder if these curses is a part of the power of the word to define, like you said? I don't know who curse works but in TS it seems the characters curse other characters quite easy and then the curse is truly happen. Could it be because they believe it and it has power in it to bond the one who is (are) cursed?

3. I read in one of Tolkien Instagram account fans a few days ago that said that Tolkien consider that there's part of him in Faramir too. I never thought it but I now I'm curious of it :)

4. As I already finished chapter 22, I can tell that CoH is going to be totally depressing!

Chapter 22, Of The Ruin of Doriath

This book took the death of its characters to a whole new level. I thought A Song of Ice and Fire series that has the most characters die along the story, but it's nothing compare to TS. And there are so many death because of "misunderstanding" and the arrogant of the characters. Not to mention of Morgoth's words.

I wonder whether the battle between the elves and the dwarves here that caused the bad relationship between the two races that will eventually solve when Legolas befriend with Gimli in the fourth age in LoTR.

And does these Shepherds of Trees (in And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes) means Ents like in LoTR?

I think the Shepherds of the Trees are the Ents. I could be wrong, but I have always thought they were. In LOTR, in several passages about the Ents, it talks about how ancient they are. So they should have existed during this time period and before.

Hey Ladies!

Rachmi,

1. Thanks for pointing out those appendixes in LoTR, yes, my edition has them!

2. Great point about the curses, it's true, there are many. Is this the dark side of words? i.e. if you take it to the broadest interpretation can we cause dark things by saying dark things? What empowers the words? Does there have to be "magic" or does repetition or force of statement count? I'm kind of going off an a tangent but I think, as you've pointed out, there's a lot to consider about these "curses", their outcomes, and their symbolism.

3. Ah. Faramir, he's a character I like;) I'll look forward to meeting him again and seeing how/what parts of himself Tolkien might be expressing in that character. Is he very different in the books from the movies?

4. Yes, I think so too :(

I have finished reading Ch. 22 too, and I was like, OMG! this is torture to read ... maybe explains why I'm only halfway through Ch.23 and put it down for awhile. Anyway, I totally agree: "This book took the death of its characters to a whole new level."

Rach, I think that's why Legolas and Gimli's friendship/alliance is so important.

Years ago I saw this movie Farewell My Concubine with a friend. We sat in the movie unbelieving, whenever we thought, hoped it was going to maybe get better, it got worse ... and then it got worse ... and then it got worse ... Right now this is kind of how The Silmarillion is!

Sydney and Rachmi, I totally missed that!!!! The Ents!!! And they are some of my absolute favorites! Thanks for pointing that out:)

To me, Chapter 21 was a total drag. Long and so depressing! I much more prefer Chapters 22-24.

Curses were very important in the literature that Tolkien drew upon. Magical effect might indeed occur from ill-wishing someone.

Sydney wrote: "I think the Shepherds of the Trees are the Ents. I could be wrong, but I have always thought they were. In LOTR, in several passages about the Ents, it talks about how ancient they are. So they sho..."

I think so too! Ents were the first thing in my mind when I read those Shepherds of the Trees sentence. And now when you point out that they should have existed during this time period and before. I'm pretty sure that they are indeed Ents :)

Sydney wrote: "To me, Chapter 21 was a total drag. Long and so depressing! I much more prefer Chapters 22-24."

While for me, chapter 21 is one of my favorite chapters in TS :D Does it mean that you won't read Children of Hurin, then? Because it's based on this chapter, I think.

Heidi wrote: "Hey Ladies!

Rachmi,

1. Thanks for pointing out those appendixes in LoTR, yes, my edition has them!

2. Great point about the curses, it's true, there are many. Is this the dark side of words? i...."

I honest am intrigued with this curse business :P Especially how it works and what empower them that can bind them, even for generations.

Mary wrote: "Curses were very important in the literature that Tolkien drew upon. Magical effect might indeed occur from ill-wishing someone."

Do you know book(s) that I can read more about curses? is there any book about it specifically in Tolkien works?

Chapter 23, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

1. Anyone know who is the tall Man in he was a tall Man, clad in black, and bearing a black sword. But they knew not who he was, nor anything of what had befallen in the south; and he passed them by, and they said no word.?

2. For a minute, when I read about Glorfindel, I thought this is the same Glorfindel in FoTR :)

3. So to summarize chapter 22 & 23, can I say that Hurin (and his descendants), in a way, causing the Fall of Doriath while Tuor who is Huor's son which also means Hurin's nephew caused the Fall of Gondolin?

Chapter 24, Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of the Wrath.

I was kind of hope I will get more about Earendil here, considering he's the title of the chapter. But I'm happy to know that Arwen and Aragorn's ancestral becomes clearer here.

As this is the last chapter of TS, I think all those death and chaos that happened in First Age were mainly because of Morgoth and Feanor's oath. What do you guys think?

The man in black is Turin.