Feminist Science Fiction Fans discussion

I've just been reading Speculative Blackness: The Future of Race in Science Fiction , a collection of essays by Andre M. Carrington.

In "Space Race Woman", an essay on the implications of Uhura on Star Trek, Carrington tells us about Nichelle Nichols' objection to her confinement to the bridge as a domestic role. She wanted Uhura to join landing parties. Yet I recall fans objecting at the time that women who accompanied landing parties on ST:OS were often Red Shirts who didn't survive the episode or they were "ladies in distress" who needed to be rescued. This is a science fictional validation of the famous anti-feminist justification of rape with the claim that she "deserved it" because she shouldn't have been on the street at that hour. If female crew members stayed aboard ship, they would supposedly be safe. Though of course Star Trek also had dangerous intruders aboard the Enterprise. There is no guarantee of safety anywhere. Women can be victimized at home.

I am glad the Uhura managed to largely avoid the "Lady in Distress" trope in those episodes where she did beam down to the planet. I also note that in _The Search for Spock_, and in _The Final Voyage_ she was able to kick ass and take names, without getting violent, actually.

As to whether the TOS Uhura should have been beaming down to planets, there is a lot to criticize about the original series. Women who beamed down with Kirk either ended up having an affair with him, or dead. Spock would just beam Sulu and a few of his friends down, and then nag Scotty until he fixed the transporter and beamed them back up.

I'll have to add Carrington's book to my nook book waiting list. Thanks.

I haven't watched much original trek (just the odd episode when it comes on TV) but the only one I've seen with a female crew member beaming down, she ended up falling in love with a Greek God who happened to live on the planet. Kirk had to give her a passionate speech about her duty to the Enterprise!

Nick wrote: "I haven't watched much original trek (just the odd episode when it comes on TV) but the only one I've seen with a female crew member beaming down, she ended up falling in love with a Greek God who ..."

"Who Mourns For Adonais?" is the episode. I remember thinking at the time I first viewed it that I couldn't imagine what she saw in Apollo, but there are real women with similar tastes.

Haha! Yes - he was such a petulant man-baby!

That episode was funny, but give me some interesting ideas to thought about. The appointment that Spock (I guess was him) made about that (Daniken's same idea, but better done) was interesting.

I have been a fan of Star Trek the original series since 1975. I respect women, but have always had the opinion that attractive women in traditional roles have tremendous power. They just go about it in different ways.

Lewis47 wrote: "I have been a fan of Star Trek the original series since 1975. I respect women, but have always had the opinion that attractive women in traditional roles have tremendous power. They just go about ..."

While I think people should be entitled to find power in the way that makes them feel most comfortable, I have a problem with the implication that attractive women are the ones who can find power in traditional roles. I don't think attractiveness should be a determining factor in power.

I respectfully disagree as a matter of fact this point was made by a female professor in college while I attended a sociology class. However, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I had a feeling that someone would not like my opinion here. I do not know too much about feminism, but it seems like people who are feminists do not like men for whatever reason.

You're welcome to be critical of feminism (that's how I was raised) but please avoid potentially offensive generalizations based on prejudice. There are all kinds of feminists.
For whatever it's worth and to put it mildly, I also disagree with your implication.

Having never watched Star Trek, I have nothing of substance to add to this thread.

I apologize as I am not prejudice, I am merely stating that upon viewing some of the comments here, I do not feel all that welcome as a male.

Males are of course welcome here. Deplorables who can't or won't behave aren't. And as you may know, there's quite a few deplorable female out there. This isn't about your hormones or your junk.
Now if you have a problem with the sexism in particular comments, do point them out and we'll see if something needs to be done about them. But please understand that this place is for discussing the literature of a sexist society, not a safe space for victims of sexism.

Lewis47 wrote: "I have been a fan of Star Trek the original series since 1975. I respect women, but have always had the opinion that attractive women in traditional roles have tremendous power. They just go about ..."

I am curious. How women have power in traditional roles?

Lewis47 said "it seems like people who are feminists do not like men for whatever reason."

As a feminist, I reply to that: I don't dislike ALL men, just some (same way I feel about other women).

And as to the "whatever reason" part of your statement, Lewis: have you ever asked yourself what possible reason(s) there could be? (Oh, okay, here're some hints: the fact that most women only make 76 cents on the dollar of what most men make; the fact that high ranking officials in our society find it perfectly okay--"just locker room talk", for instance--to mean demeaning comments about women's appearances, bodily functions, etc. Want me to go on? I've got a lot more. Didn't think so.)

Marina Sirtis has said some very clear things about how she feels about her role in Star Trek: Next Generation. I imagine she's not the only woman to speak out about this, but she's the one whose comments I've noticed. Lewis47, you might be interested, as she specifically addresses the issue of attractive and unattractive women.

https://trekmovie.com/2010/08/24/mari...

Lynn wrote: "Lewis47 said "it seems like people who are feminists do not like men for whatever reason."

As a feminist, I reply to that: I don't dislike ALL men, just some (same way I feel about other women).

I really take issue with the points you made. First, I am not against women making the same amount of money for doing
the same job as men. That is only fair. Second, the "Locker room" talk doesn't happen all that often and is usually perpetrated by men that even other men don't care for. I really don't like being judged by a stereotype. Just because some men do or say these things, doesn't mean that I am among them.

I believe that women have power in traditional roles because behind a lot of successful men are great women. They give them drive and proper counsel which is needed at times which only they know how to accomplish.

Who said you were being judged by a stereotype? Not by me since I don't even know you. I do however judge the men that I've heard with my own ears say these things. After years of working in an environment where men said things like this *frequently* right in front of me and now seeing how people in high office are doing the same damn thing, can you maybe begin to see why it bothers me and other women?

I am not able to see how that means that women have power in traditional roles.

I am sorry Rafael that I could not explain this to you.

I understand and see why you would be frustrated. I support you 100%. It just feels like when you hear these words, that if you're a man you're kind of automatically lumped into that despised category whether you did anything wrong or not.

I have no problem with that jab if you will, but I was never a fan of the Next Generation. :)

No, IT doesn't feel that way. YOU feel that way. The distinction would normally not matter, except you're the only one here who feels that way, right? So maybe the problem is with you and not with the statement.
Sometimes there are good reasons to be especially careful about how you talk around people who've had traumatizing experiences for instance but you've given no hint that you have special psychological needs.

Wow, you seem to be a very nasty person. I am sorry to hear that.

Why on earth would anyone want to be the power behind the throne? Why wouldn't women, just the same as men, wish to be the one calling the shots, taking responsibility, and garnering acclaim, up front and in public? People only accept this secondary position because that's all that's available to them, but it's not optimal and it's not what women (or anyone, really) should be taught to strive for.

Lewis47 wrote: "Wow, you seem to be a very nasty person. I am sorry to hear that."

Lewis, there is nothing that Outis says that marks her as a "very nasty person" and it is very rude of you to say so. On your profile, you state that you are a good listener and a loyal friend. I would like to gently and respectfully suggest that a way of your being a good listener and friend to women would be to take the time to learn a little about feminism so that you might better understand why your views could be construed as offensive, and so that you could take any criticism less personally.

There are lots of lists you could start with, but a few suggestions of brief reads that might help you out here could be We Should All Be Feminists by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates or Men Explain Things to Me by Rebecca Solnit.

When you have read these or other similar books, you will find that you are better able to understand feminism and hence join in with discussions in this group, if that is what you are keen to do.

Lewis47 wrote: "I understand and see why you would be frustrated. I support you 100%. It just feels like when you hear these words, that if you're a man you're kind of automatically lumped into that despised categ..."

Well, no women have always said that I am this kind of person, I suppose that it is because I am not oversensitive about it. When an women make this kind of statement I get sad, not because my feelings were hurt, but because we made this world where women are daily abused by our fellow men and we could try to help to change this world not being this kind of men.

To be honest, I think if anything Outis was very rude to me. She went off on me for no reason at all. I said nothing wrong to Outis.
I have been very understanding and gentle with my words only to be attacked. Then a few more people jump on the bandwagon and attempt to make me feel worse for basically doing nothing.

I "went off" on you because it's my duty here to investigate the type of complaints you've been making. I would not be posting in a thread about Star Trek otherwise. And so far as I can see, not only have you been crying wolf which wastes my time but you've actually been the only one behaving inappropriately.
You are responsible for your own feelings. But if someone actually said something that needlessly triggered these feelings, for the last time... if you could point out *specifically* what it is that bothered you then maybe we could address it.
So far, the only objectionable statement I've noticed in this thread is: "it seems like people who are feminists do not like men for whatever reason". But maybe I've missed something else.
Finally, I'm not a she (though if you want to call me "she", that's fine) which is why I think I can speak with some authority when I say first, that no one said anything offensive to men and second, that men are welcome in this group.

So you are an investigator for Goodreads? First, I did not know such a position existed. It is also interesting because I was an investigator in law enforcement for twenty five years in the field of law enforcement. It is obvious that I am not allowed to express my feelings here, if they happen to be in conflict with anyone else. i never thought that would be an issue, but you have definitely made it one. Others can say what they wish within reason except for me. Look at my posts, not once did I say anything obscene or anything other than my opinion. Your tone was and continues to be a bad one with me and it's not right.

Okay, I think people have gone of the thread of the discussion here. It is a thread about a feminist analysis of SF. Perhaps people who have hurt feelings and/or don't agree with any of the many kinds of feminism should start a new thread outside of this one. Sometimes we just want to talk about the subject and not have to convince folks that the subject is a valid one. Someone has been very clever in re-routing the intent of the this thread.

I would like to know where all the female feminist voices are on all these threads? I know the thread is for fans of feminist SF! But isn't is interesting that so many voices across the threads are not female.

I guess a valid question might be - can mainstream Sf on tv be feminist SF? Could it be feminist in the 1960s? However I still think that questions should not be discussed here because this is about books.

I came looking for a feminist analysis of SF -

Having being disappointed that this group is not active, I started another group called Women of the Future. It focusses on SciFi written by women or starring female protagonists. Right now we're building and classifying the bookshelves but if we get enough interested members we'll start a monthly read.

Come on by if you're interested :)

https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

Beige wrote: "Having being disappointed that this group is not active, I started another group called Women of the Future. It focusses on SciFi written by women or starring female protagonists."

Sounds grand, Beige! I've just sent you a request to join. I hope that you'll consider adding me.

I did too; thanks for starting what sound like a great group!

Thanks! See you there 😀