Reading the Chunksters discussion

Hi everyone! Wow there was a LOT going on in this section. Clearly wiki was sage in noting that there were many characters, but NOT sage in including an elaborate character diagram on Dr. Z's wikipedia page that I could not view the text of no matter how much I blew it up. But if anyone is able to do so, please share! I did find this character list that was quite helpful:

http://caitlingaleworldliterature.blo...

Five O'Clock Express - What a heart rending way to open the book! Our poor Yura is orphaned and has no memory of his father, and we subsequently learn in the next chapter that it is his father who commits suicide by throwing himself off a train (which Misha Gordon is on). Yura goes from great wealth to poverty, and stays with his intellectual and deeply religious Uncle Nikolai at a monastery. They then travel and stay at the estate of a silk merchant. Meanwhile, a boy named Nika is also staying at the estate, we learn that his father is a terrorist, and he has a cute little, I like you so much that I DON'T LIKE YOU AT ALL episode with the young girl Nadya on a boat.

There are many deep discussions even in this first chapter, about land reform, metaphysics, poverty, art, God, you know, just light stuff to warm you up with the novel.

What did you think of the opening chapter? Did any of the insights of the author strike you in particular?

A Girl from a Different Circle - Now we are in the time of the Russo-Japanese War, placing us in 1904-5. The widowed Amalia Karlovna Guichard starts a dressmaking business and we learn she has two children, son Rodion and daughter Lara. The lawyer Komarovsky has a relationship with Amalia and owns a weirdly possessive bulldog named Jack (anyone else have a weirdly possessive pet?) Meanwhile, a railway strike occurs and Tiverzin gets into a fight with Khudoleev when he tries to stop K from beating a boy for a work infraction. They are pulled apart, but then T has to flee because the police are looking for him. T's friend Antipov was arrested, and so his mother takes care of A's son Pasha. There is an aside that people who work the land will have the same social status as the rich.

At this point Yura is living with the Gromeko family with Misha and the Gromeko's daughter Tonya. Meanwhile, it seems that Lara is now sleeping with her mother's boyfriend (ew). Amalia's workers go on strike and she has to close up shop and leave with Lara. Alex Gromeko is summoned to help a dying woman who turns out to be Amalia, who has tried to poison herself. Alex reluctantly left a concert to attend to her. Komarovsky is there and it seems apparent that others are becoming aware of the love triangle.

Do you feel that the different story lines are coming together at this point?

Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express - What a heart rending way to open the book! Our poor Yura is orphaned and has no memory of his father, and we subsequently learn in the next chapter that it is his father who ..."
Dianne, luckily, my edition had a "cast of characters" page, which I copied and used as a bookmark. That helped a little, but in typical Russian literature fashion, everyone has lots of nicknames. Very nice summary of this very dense opening chapter, There is one thing that stood out for me, perhaps a translation question: "Nika remembered his early morning misogyny." Would this young character even use the word misogyny, even though he was just that?

Dianne wrote: "A Girl from a Different Circle - Now we are in the time of the Russo-Japanese War, placing us in 1904-5. The widowed Amalia Karlovna Guichard starts a dressmaking business and we learn she has two ..."
In chapter two, the mention of the love triangle does stand out.
And, yes, we get a picture of things to come when Pasternak, without judgment, tells us of this issue. And what odd names! The canary is "Kirrill Modestovich". And "Fuffygin" is a Divisional Manager. Do you think "the brothers Gromeko" was a direct ode to Dostoyevsky, just as the book opener, the funeral procession, basically picks up where Tolstoy's "Karenina" ends? (I would not have though about the comparison to Tolstoy, but the introduction points this out.

I noticed that in the Hayward translated version the identity of the well-known millionaire that jumped to his death was included in the first chapter (The Five O'clock Express) but in the VP translated version does not include right away. This certainly seemed odd to me.

Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express ... What did you think of the opening chapter? ..."

This was instantly engaging, I like the way Pasternak puts a lot into these short sections, almost like a series of paintings. There's obviously going to be a lot of religion and politics, as well as the 'human' side - mixing it up in bite-sized chunks makes it more digestible :)

I've just read the first chapter. There is a lot of stuff - I was surprised how each little section introduced yet another new character. I also was surprised at the beautiful and philosophical writing. (I usually read 19th c. Classics and as big a lover of philosophy and ideas as I am, I wonder if I've been missing out by not reading more 20th c. Novels!?)

I felt the sad introduction was a good foreshadowing into a novel that will be full of war and death. ( I love first sentences and believe they should serve a purpose as this one does.)

I also believe one of the main points of this part is the introduction of characters.

It also served the purpose of showing us the individual parts will not all be chronological.

Oohhh, so many other subjects I have to think about by Dianne in msg. 2. If I think of anything I'll get back , onto part 2!

Candace wrote: "I love first sentences and believe they should serve a purpose as this one does."

Me too, Candace! I often go back later to look at the first sentence of a book so I can savor it.

Here's a link to a YouTube video of "Memory Eternal", the traditional Russian Orthodox closing of a funeral that opens the book. Much like "Eternal rest grant to her, O Lord" in the western rite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Geb...
It will put you in a Russian mood. (There are others; this is just one)

Greg wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express - What a heart rending way to open the book! Our poor Yura is orphaned and has no memory of his father, and we subsequently learn in the next chapter that it is ..."

Hmmm good question Greg. I assumed it was just the author recounting Nika's thoughts in his own words. However, I would not be shocked if youth from this time had more refined language than what we would see today!

Greg wrote: "Dianne wrote: "A Girl from a Different Circle - Now we are in the time of the Russo-Japanese War, placing us in 1904-5. The widowed Amalia Karlovna Guichard starts a dressmaking business and we lea..."

again, good thought! I think I'll have to read more to see any possible linkages.

Peg wrote: "I noticed that in the Hayward translated version the identity of the well-known millionaire that jumped to his death was included in the first chapter (The Five O'clock Express) but in the VP trans..."

That is odd! Even in just the chapter titles you can really see the difference between the translations. I have come to realize that translation really is the work of an artist!

Pamela wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express ... What did you think of the opening chapter? ..."

This was instantly engaging, I like the way Pasternak puts a lot into these short sections, almost like a se..."

I agree, I think there are many heavy philosophical digressions but they are well interspersed throughout the story. These are portions on which I feel like I should take notes, but am not sure if I am ambitious enough to do so.

Candace wrote: "I've just read the first chapter. There is a lot of stuff - I was surprised how each little section introduced yet another new character. I also was surprised at the beautiful and philosophical wri..."

I totally agree Candace, I think these opening chapters help to 'set the stage' with the cast of characters and the backdrop of the action. I can't believe how much is going on already!

I started last night and read part way into the second chapter. I'm reading the Everyman Library edition (H&H translation) and I must admit, I felt a bit cautious going into this as I started the audio version last year and gave up after an hour or so - I just could not follow the story or connect with it in any way.

This time, I'm loving it. This is a clear example of book better suited to me in written format than audio. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the names / characters, which seemed impossible in audio but I'm having no problem with in print (my version comes with a handy one page character guide).

I really like how the first two chapters are set up and the seamless way several key characters (and backstory) are introduced. I'm finding it to be a highly visual book, no surprise a famous movie resulted from it - I can't wait to watch it when we're done (I've not seen it!).

I hope my enthusiasm for the first few pages carries through - I'm glad I joined you guys in this one.

SusanK wrote: "Here's a link to a YouTube video of "Memory Eternal", the traditional Russian Orthodox closing of a funeral that opens the book. Much like "Eternal rest grant to her, O Lord" in the western rite.
h..."

Thanks so much for this Susan, I found this scene in particular very powerful when reading so will look forward to watching this when I'm home later.

SusanK wrote: "Here's a link to a YouTube video of "Memory Eternal", the traditional Russian Orthodox closing of a funeral that opens the book. Much like "Eternal rest grant to her, O Lord" in the western rite.
h..."

Thanks for sharing Susan!!

Here is some background on Russian land reform around this time:

Stolypin land reform, (1906–17), measures undertaken by the Russian government to allow peasants to own land individually. Its aim was to encourage industrious peasants to acquire their own land, and ultimately to create a class of prosperous, conservative, small farmers that would be a stabilizing influence in the countryside and would support the autocracy. After the government emancipated the serfs in 1861 it allotted land to each peasant household, but the land was collectively owned by the village communes. The communes traditionally divided the land into strips, which were distributed among the households for cultivation.

The lack of economic success in agriculture following emancipation, as well as the violent peasant uprisings that occurred during the Revolution of 1905, suggested the need to abandon communal land tenure and to replace it with individual land ownership. On Nov. 22 (Nov. 9, old style), 1906, while the Duma (the formal legislative body) was not in session, the prime minister Pyotr Arkadyevich Stolypin issued a decree that enabled each peasant household to claim individual ownership of its land allotment and to withdraw from the commune. The household could also demand that the commune provide it with a consolidated plot equivalent to the scattered strips it had been cultivating. Furthermore, the decree abolished joint household ownership and made the head of each household the sole property owner. In 1910 the decree was finally confirmed by the Duma, which passed laws expanding it in 1910 and 1911.

The reform was only a moderate success. By the end of 1916 no more than 20 percent of the peasant households had title to their land, although fewer (some 10 percent) had received consolidated plots. The reform did not transform the peasantry into the bulwark of support that the autocracy needed; and during 1917 peasants everywhere participated in the revolutions, seizing properties belonging to the Stolypin farmers.

Jen wrote: "I started last night and read part way into the second chapter. I'm reading the Everyman Library edition (H&H translation) and I must admit, I felt a bit cautious going into this as I started the a..."

awesome Jen! I think audio would be very difficult with this one!

@Peg msg6 I'm so glad you said this!! I didn't read comments yesterday because I hadn't read Part 2 (still working on it) but I did not understand why I was not aware it was Zhivago's father who had committed suicide. (I found out about it by reading Dianne's summary.) I have the Pevear translation. I was too embarrassed to ask for someone to please tell me where that occurred because I had looked at it 3 or 4 times!!

I can't think of any reason to leave it out either. We find out at end of Part one that he is poor, we've also learned it was the dad that lost the family money . Why shouldn't we know how he died?

Candace, that was so my experience. I looked through the relevant parts many times after reading Diane's.

Sorry guys! I think it was in different sections based on translations. Hopefully there won't be other dramatic differences !

So I'm reading the P&V translation and I the introduction it states how Pasternak has "inanimate nature constantly participates in the action" and how the "intensity of physical sensation rendered in the abundance of natural description" and there was a lot of this in the first chapter alone. In the very first part when Zhivago is at his mother's funeral and the downpour starts as he is on her grave you can feel how the sudden onslaught of the storm is like the sudden onslaught of sadness he felt, it soaked him through and was inescapable. Then when he is at the house of Ivan Ivanovich and out walking it describes the flowers stagnant scent was as being "nailed down" because of the heat and then he is said as going down into a ravine that had "damp darkness" which is a fitting description of how his emotional and mental state must have been, to feel as if he was "nailed down" with this despair which when described as damp gives one the feeling of a smothering, a feeling that pervades the whole body.

I know there is more going on but these descriptions really struck me and put into words some of the physical manifestations of his emotions.

Danielle wrote: "So I'm reading the P&V translation and I the introduction it states how Pasternak has "inanimate nature constantly participates in the action" and how the "intensity of physical sensation rendered ..."

I'm so glad you called attention to these two sections because you are absolutely right - Pasternak writes in such a way that the environment almost seems like a physical, living, enveloping thing. As you point out the grim weather and deluge absolutely echoes the change in Yura's life at his mother's death, and I also noted the passage about the scent of flowers almost being like a net with a smothering and sickly sweet scent trapped beneath it. I always love it when an author can make you feel like you are actually there with the vivid imagery and I think Pasternak is brilliant with this!

You remind me of another little piece that struck me- also seeming like nature is personified and an uncontrollable part of Yura's life.

P. 4-5 P&V
On the eve of his mother's funeral:
"During the night Yura was awakened by a tapping at the window....A blizzard was raging outside;... One might have thought the storm noticed Yura and, knowing how frightening it was, reveled in the impression it made on him. It whistled and howled and tried in every way possible to attract Yura's attention. He was afraid now...that mama would be snowed under and would be unable to resist going still deeper and further away from him into the ground. "

Greg wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express - What a heart rending way to open the book! Our poor Yura is orphaned and has no memory of his father, and we subsequently learn in the next chapter that it is ..."

This passage stopped me as well. I know adults who don't know the word misogyny, and while it perfectly explains the situation, it felt a little grown up for me. Then again, I thought, well, maybe this is something that we're to know about this character - that he's very bright and ahead of the crowd.

I agree Jen. I feel like we are getting 'shown' what Yura is like as a child. Along with intelligence, I feel like we are being shown how sensitive he is to everything around him: his mother, nature, the absence of his father ( even not praying for him), his Uncle and his work, etc Yura's sensitivity to many things that other children aren't makes me think of him already as an artist. - And I am reminded of Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, just in the portrayal of the early sensitivity and intelligence; showing us how this man is as a young child. - not the writing format, style or anything of that nature...

Pamela wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express ... What did you think of the opening chapter? ..."

This was instantly engaging, I like the way Pasternak puts a lot into these short sections, almost like a se..."
"set of paintings". Pamela, excellent way to describe the opening chapters of this book!

Dianne wrote: "Greg wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express - What a heart rending way to open the book! Our poor Yura is orphaned and has no memory of his father, and we subsequently learn in the next chapte..."
Dianne, great point, 100 years ago great grammar/language at a young age was far more valued than today. Why, it required facing a person, or a group of people, and one WANTED to make a good impression!

Jen wrote: "I started last night and read part way into the second chapter. I'm reading the Everyman Library edition (H&H translation) and I must admit, I felt a bit cautious going into this as I started the a..."
Jen, I so agree. Some authors/works are great on audio (Shakespeare for me, as my mind won't think out the way the words SHOULD sound. And Shakespeare didn't write to be read.

Dianne wrote: "Danielle wrote: "So I'm reading the P&V translation and I the introduction it states how Pasternak has "inanimate nature constantly participates in the action" and how the "intensity of physical se..."
YES! The geography IS a character.

Candace wrote: "I agree Jen. I feel like we are getting 'shown' what Yura is like as a child. Along with intelligence, I feel like we are being shown how sensitive he is to everything around him: his mother, natur..."
Candace, great comparison! Yuri and Joyce as children were indeed very sensitive, on their way to artistic endeavors.

Drew wrote: "Candace wrote: "I love first sentences and believe they should serve a purpose as this one does."

Me too, Candace! I often go back later to look at the first sentence of a book so I can savor it."
Drew, Candace, absolutely! With a book, it is easier (and often it happens with me) to go back to a first sentence of a book, or a chapter, or reread a paragraph as opposed to audio.

Dianne wrote: "Here is some background on Russian land reform around this time:

Stolypin land reform, (1906–17), measures undertaken by the Russian government to allow peasants to own land individually. Its aim..."
Thanks Diane!

I found that a line toward the end of "Girl from a Different World" tells us a lot about what's to come: "If Komarovsky's intrusion into Lara's life had merely filled her with disgust, she would have rebelled and broken free. But it was not so simple as that." This, and the relationships that follow, are not simple. It would be so easy to pass judgment on some of the latter relationships (who was right, who was wrong, who was weak in character), but in this setting, Pasternak is clearly telling us that within this harsh land of war, poverty, etc., people are going to do things they have to do to survive.

Jen wrote: "Greg wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express - What a heart rending way to open the book! Our poor Yura is orphaned and has no memory of his father, and we subsequently learn in the next chapte..."
Hi Jen, Dianne points out that in times past, children were probably more advanced in communication than today. I agree: they had to talk to people in person! They were trained to impress a room full of people. Not like today, for better or worse.

Jen wrote: "I started last night and read part way into the second chapter. I'm reading the Everyman Library edition (H&H translation) and I must admit, I felt a bit cautious going into this as I started the a..."
Jen, I've seen the movie, thought it very good. In the movie, lust and love plays the upper hand, and it is a beautiful movie with a beautiful score. But Hollywood's version isn't as gritty as this book, imo. Especially the ending, but let's wait to talk about that later.

Candace wrote: "I agree Jen. I feel like we are getting 'shown' what Yura is like as a child. Along with intelligence, I feel like we are being shown how sensitive he is to everything around him: his mother, natur..."

Agreed! And in the very last scene of Chapter 2, there's a passage that indicates the Yury, from the shadows is seeing everything, which cemented for me that he's a super observant, and very intense young man. It's nice foreshadowing of what I suspect we will see from him as he grows to an adult. I'm trying really hard not to 'read ahead' too much here - I don't know that much about the details of this book, and I like to let it play out while I'm reading it.

I'm still struggling with the characters and the names - there are just a lot of characters (minor ones it seems) with a lot of names. I don't recall this being a huge problem for me with other Russian literature (Anna Karenina for example) but I'm started to work through. The names that I see regularly I'm grabbing on to as important. The others I'm just trying to not get stuck on. I'd be curious if folks have a thought on why so many minor characters and so many nicknames. My edition makes the case in the preface that this was completely purposeful on Pasternak's part.

Jen wrote: "I'd be curious if folks have a thought on why so many minor characters and so many nicknames."

My experience is that in general Russians use a variety of nicknames for their nearest and dearest.

Other than getting my head around all the names and variety of ways of saying those names, I am loving this book. Another one of those books where I say to myself, 'Why did I wait so long to read this?'
Pasternak was obviously a poet and his words have poetical depth and effect. Light and silence have sound and emotions become almost tangible.

Tracey wrote: " Another one of those books where I say to myself, 'Why did I wait so long to read this?'.."

I agree Tracey, I don't know what I was expecting before - maybe the idea of it being a heavy romance put me off. The writing is beautiful, the sights and sounds are so vivid - and are so tightly linked to the emotions, as you say.

Tracey wrote: "Other than getting my head around all the names and variety of ways of saying those names, I am loving this book. Another one of those books where I say to myself, 'Why did I wait so long to read t..."
Tracey, same here, why have I not read this already?

Jen wrote: "I'm still struggling with the characters and the names - there are just a lot of characters (minor ones it seems) with a lot of names. I don't recall this being a huge problem for me with other Rus..."
Jen, Drew, my copy has a "cast of characters" list with nicknames, so I made a copy of that page and I'm using it as a bookmark. But this is typical of Russian novels: I'm thankful my copy of War and Peace came with it's own bookmark on which all the characters and nicknames were listed.

The suicide at the beginning of the book is so important. It sets the stage for one of the major themes; self-destruction. Self-destruction of an individual, of a relationship, of a way of life and ultimately of a people. But the deeper theme of the book I feel is of redemption. That in the midst of all these destructive forces and ideologies a person, a people, a nation can be redeemed.

Drew wrote: "Jen wrote: "I'd be curious if folks have a thought on why so many minor characters and so many nicknames."

My experience is that in general Russians use a variety of nicknames for their nearest an..."

Also having so many names thrown at you in the beginning has a chaotic effect which apparently was something he was aiming for.

Greg wrote: "I found that a line toward the end of "Girl from a Different World" tells us a lot about what's to come: "If Komarovsky's intrusion into Lara's life had merely filled her with disgust, she would ha..."
Greg, that is what I thought. Such a harsh environment and such little happiness for everyone.

MichelleCH wrote: "Greg wrote: "I found that a line toward the end of "Girl from a Different World" tells us a lot about what's to come: "If Komarovsky's intrusion into Lara's life had merely filled her with disgust,..."

Yes, so very true.

Lara is a young woman of high intelligence and great beauty. Sometimes great beauty can be a curse; in Lara's case, it inspired Komarovsky's obsession. But regardless of that, being alive in Russia at that time in history meant struggle and tragedy. There was no possibility of living a "normal life."

BTW, I am enjoying the heck out of this book!

Dianne wrote: "Five O'Clock Express - What a heart rending way to open the book! Our poor Yura is orphaned and has no memory of his father, and we subsequently learn in the next chapter that it is his father who ..."

Okay so I have had a crazy week with teaching so I am just now getting time to post some things I noticed from this week. I think that the opening of the book, with all the chaos and interconnection between the lives of the characters sets us up for a novel that will show how interconnected we are as humans and how one event in our life can have an impact on another's or even trigger something to happen in theirs. There was a lot of background in this part but this feeling really resonated with me because of how much more interconnected we are with social media, just look at all over us taking part in reading this book from all over the US (and for me here in the Dominican Republic). While I don't think this was a something he particularly strived for I do think that it is something that is a byproduct of his story and helps it to be consider classic literature.

Okay so off to part two but I wanted to just add a little something to this now that I am able to be more involved in the discussion.

And there was a lot of insightful things that you all posted but I will refrain from commenting since we are now passed this week and onto the next but thank you all for these because it has really helped me get more from the book. :-)