World, Writing, Wealth discussion

Scout raised this notion on one of her posts and I thought it deserved a separate thread.
What are books/movies that defined generations, in your opinion? And which?

Catch-22 - for when?, Pulp fiction and Trainspotting for late 90-ies -? Harry Potter - for later? Puberty Blues for 80-ies for Australia -?
What do you think?

I'd certainly say Catch-22. Also Orwell's 1984, Webb's The Graduate, Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath, Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, Carson's Silent Spring. I think defining novels have to leave indelible imprints on our minds and say something important about the times in which they are set. Sorry there's not something more modern here.

There's nothing modern, Scout, because we haven't had time to define our times. I think all good literature says something about the time of the author, but I am not so convinced about the use of "define".

Easy for us Blank Generation kids........the films of John Hughes.

Ian wrote: "There's nothing modern, Scout, because we haven't had time to define our times. I think all good literature says something about the time of the author, but I am not so convinced about the use of "..."

I could agree with you about the word define, but what would be a better word to describe the books that speak to a generation of readers? And what are some of those books, in your opinion?

I always thought that (in regards to film) there are TWO movies that basically sum up the '90s= 'Wayne's World' and 'Reality Bites'. --Jen from Quebec :0)
(And yes- John Hughes was a voice for the '80s)

Can't recall exactly what I was doing in the '90s, but I missed these movies. Should I watch them?

I am not sure if there are books that will speak to the future about our times, because I am not sure what it is about our times that will be recorded. The problem for me is, only bits of a time live on. For an example, "The Grapes of Wrath" is an extremely powerful book that says what about its time? I do not believe all of America was like that. Authors tend to pick out the sores, and those picked on by the great authors live on, while the rest of those times die.

It is one of my great regrets that I never got my parents to recount their lives. I heard small excerpts but never enough to be sure I understood. It was always "left until later", and then it was too late. The problem for me was, I thought if I asked, it would be looking as if I did not expect them to live much longer, and I did not want to convey that.

Ian wrote: "...."left until later", and then it was too late..."

Happens all too often in our routine, so often that it's maybe a part of human nature ..

Catch-22, Stranger in a Strange Land, Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, Millennium series, Baroque Cycle. My list is long and some are of their time like Stranger. Bourne series also but films have changed setting of era. Arthur C Clarke just for the predictions embedded in the books alongside Asimov

More recently Harry Potter and Songs of Fire and Ice, but I nearly always come back to Catch-22 despite its WWII setting and post war viewpoint

Then there are the classics where the plays of WS always resonate or how about Rudyard Kipling - The Jungle Book has a lot to answer for. Most other classics leave me cold (heresy I know) whether I read them once or not. Dickens, Tolstoy I just find dull - again of their time.

Definitive perhaps but mood also impacts resonance.

Ian wrote: "I am not sure if there are books that will speak to the future about our times, because I am not sure what it is about our times that will be recorded. The problem for me is, only bits of a time li..."

I've intermittently been talking with my parents, both 85 years old now, for a couple of years, recording conversations with them about their lives, and taking notes. They're both really into it and don't take offense because they both wish they had done the same with their parents. Talking with them together, I get different takes on their history, and they help each other remember things that, individually, they probably wouldn't think of. I've done some research on Ancestry but, god, it's all so time-consuming. I could do much better.

This is a very difficult question, I keep finding myself refering to books that helped define me - as opposed to my generation.

I have no real idea if there is anything that defines my generation - people are so different

Hmmm...for my generation (very tail end of Gen X) it wasn't so much books that defined us, I feel, as movies and music. I would have to say Wayne's World and Trainspotting for the movies, plus Friends, Buffy, and The Simpsons for TV shows. Music-wise, grunge, of course!

My students who are pretty much all 17-23 are almost uniformly united by their love for Harry Potter--it really is a defining future of their generation. I also love HP and know many others of my own age (and older) who do as well, but it's much less of a common denominator than it is for the slighter younger set.

I'm just wondering about Harry Potter books. I know they've been popular, and I read the first two, but what makes them so great? Serious question here, seeking info. I know they have strong female characters, but what else that guides/defines a generation?

I think they were the first fun YA books to come along for many, many years.

There were decades of angst before that.

They are completely magical and alive. You can feel Rowling 's love for Harry and his world come pouring off the page. They have that elusive "real" quality to them.

I realize that's not necessarily very helpful, because that's hard to emulate. But a lot of the monster bestsellers--Harry Potter, Twilight, 50 Shades, Game of Thrones--came to their creators as intense visions, dreams, or fantasies, and that "living" quality permeates the text. Lots of people like to criticize them for their technical flaws, but those supposed technical flaws simply don't matter in the face of their creativity.

Another explanation would be that they are the perfect reflections of their zeitgeist, taking all the half-formed creative trends that were just emerging and transforming them into something that seemed unique and fresh but was still grounded in their cultural context enough to be recognizable.

I completely agree, E.P. They do come alive, and they're wonderful. I think the best thing you can say is that JK Rowling can really tell a great story.

That she can! I went into "The Casual Vacancy" with some skepticism, but that was good too!

Scout wrote: "I'm just wondering about Harry Potter books. I know they've been popular, and I read the first two, but what makes them so great? Serious question here, seeking info. I know they have strong female..."

You need to keep reading the series! Seriously. The 1st two Harry Potter books are children's literature, and heavily focused on the magical realm and wonders of the imagination and the setting/world Harry now finds himself in...THEN? The STORY only REALLY STARTS in the 3rd book! Honestly! Once you end Book 3, it hits you that this is a long opus, and as it continues, it also gets MUCH more adult. 'Azkaban' is just the beginning of the greatness. This story is actually one main story told through the course of the ENTIRE SERIES, and each book has its one tale...the 1st two books, though, are like Star Wars' Episode I-- merely setting the scene for the epic that is to come.

By the last book, the 'kid' that started the series is now a decade older (as 1st time readers had to wait for publication dates of following books) the last book is a zillion pages long, and you will still wish it were longer. By the end of the ENTIRE story, during the last book, our characters are immersed in a world of all out war. There are killings, murders, death, violence, swearing, torture, fascism, xenophobia, criminality, and complex themes/motifs.

PLEASE do me a favor and keep reading. Honestly? When I do a re-read of the series, I no longer even READ the 1st 2 books at ALL. They are just (imo) 'establishment books'- they set up HP's world so that we can then enjoy the amazing story- which, as I said, only really STARTS in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban !! --Jen from Quebec :0)

I really enjoyed the Harry Potter series. That being said, the huge wave of YA fantasy that has followed in its wake just seems really derivative. Just because I enjoyed reading the HP series doesn't mean I want to read a bunch of books about teenage students at magical academies. These days I am really careful about the fantasy books I put on my tbr; I check quite thoroughly to make sure they aren't YA. That's a shame, because there are good YA books out there, but the total numbers make separating the wheat from the chaff a daunting challenge.

Jennifer Lynn wrote: "Scout wrote: "I'm just wondering about Harry Potter books. I know they've been popular, and I read the first two, but what makes them so great? Serious question here, seeking info. I know they have..."

Thanks for your reply, JL. The first couple of books weren't all that interesting to me, but you've explained that. I'll dig out the next couple of books from my son's stash and give the series another try. Looking forward to the "killings, murders, death, violence, swearing, torture, fascism, xenophobia, criminality, and complex themes/motifs." :) If I understand correctly, the characters are dealing with these themes as they enter their early twenties?

Scout wrote: "Looking forward to the "killings, murders, death, violence, swearing, torture, fascism, xenophobia, criminality, and complex themes/motifs." :) ..."

Wouldn't count on these in Rowling's stuff, but maybe Tim's books encompass some and I too try to address these delicate issues -:)

As for HP defining a generation - I would concur. It increased reading rates in the UK leading to other authors and other book sales. This trend dropped off with the movies but hopefully left a whole generation liking reading.

I think Game of Thrones - Songs of Fire and Ice - was a natural follow on for many teenagers who grew up with HP and wanted something more adult. Many also went to Lord of The Rings

Yes, Lord of the Rings was something I read so many years ago. There's something magical about it for it to speak to today's generation, and for those of us who read it long ago to love it still.

I find it interesting that the comic books my dad loved as a kid in the 30s and 40s are the hit movies and TV shows of the past decade. Superman, Captain America, etc.

I was a teenager in the 70s. I read all the time. I don't know what was popular or a defining novel. My daughter as a teen in the 90s read all my sci-fi books plus she liked fantasy.
WE read so much that i never paid attention to specific resonation as to books. Movies were rarer and more upon request to go see or rent, so those are easier for me to recognize.

Surprised no one has mentioned Catcher in the Rye or On the Road as post war landmarks. Or a book I loathe, Less than Zero for the 80's

TheLongWait wrote: "Surprised no one has mentioned Catcher in the Rye or On the Road as post war landmarks. Or a book I loathe, Less than Zero for the 80's"

Good mentions

Although not a cult book, 1984 is easily the dystopian-genre-establishing work. It was always around since its publication in 1949, but post-Vietnam-War and its aftermath really made it resonate with Western societies and continues to do so to this day. Combine 1984 with Conrad's Heart of Darkness, on which "Apocalypse Now" was based, and you have a potent expression of Western cultural attitudes towards governemnt that still persists to this day.

otoh, you have the American drive to individual self-improvement as embodied in The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change (published in 1988) to drive that dystopian distrust in the government into the open arms of business (be that self-employed or not; and although the "7 Habits" are generally applicable, it has a receptive audience in business--be that as it may, I really think it's quite an effective system for personal--and, to its credit, interpersonal--development). "7 Habits" really gives the whole self-improvement enterprise a leg up.

Time to read 1984 again. It's one I read over and over. Big Brother is watching you.

And what's your take?

What a great question. How do we define the books? since I am a Baby Boomer, I can name the following that defined us.

The Catcher in the Rye

Catch-22

Lord of the Flies

And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic

Slaughter House-Five

Fahrenheit 451

In Cold Blood

Roots: The Saga of an American Family

Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders

Good list. I'd agree with six of those as ones that defined our generation.

Since the baby boomers range from 1946 to 1964, I expect there might be some very different book lists from those born in the late 40s as compared to those born in the early 60s. Consider that those born in the 40s were being drafted into the Vietnam War when the younger boomers were toddlers in the 1960s.

There is a 14 year age difference between my oldest half sister born in 1950 and my youngest sister born in 1964, and a huge difference in the expectations for them by our father. I have a list of about 13 rights that women did not have until the 1970s, covering everything from credit cards to being on a jury. We grew up in completely different worlds - from music to movies to books.

One book I do recall being read and discussed by most of my classmates in the mid-70s was Erica Jong's Fear of Flying. We were fascinated by it, while my oldest sibling thought it was pornography.

[Maybe I should read Fear of Fifty (though I am now past that decade of my life).]

Lizzie wrote: "One book I do recall being read and discussed by most of my classmates in the mid-70s was Erica Jong's Fear of Flying. We were fascinated by it, while my oldest sibling thought it was pornography. ..."

That one and the The Joy of Sex is another one that could be on the list.

I'd forgotten about that one. I bought it when I was nineteen and got quite an education. Remember the women having armpit hair? It had a very hippyish vibe :-) Wonder how that term started - hippy. Maybe from hip-huggers?

I'm a Gen X - just. But I'm also not from the US.

I have read Lord of the Flies, The Catcher in the Rye, and parts of Catch 22. Not my favourites, I have to say. Mostly texts used at school.

I was meant to be influenced by Puberty Blues as the generational book for my age group here in Australia, and I did read it under protest. I can't say it was defining for me, because it was very much written on the other side of Australia. (I grew up in WA, which can be rather parochial, but has some significant cultural differences to the rest of Australia - less now that it used to have, but still there.) Also it was 'ick.'

But having said that, other books that were 'generational' could be:
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy}

[book:Go Ask Alice

Storm Boy

Tomorrow, When the War Began

The Power of One

The Complete Adventures of Snugglepot and Cuddlepie

Seven Little Australians

Oh, and of course at high school:

'Where Did I Come From?': The Facts of Life Without Any Nonsense and With Illustrations

I'll check out some of your titles, unfamiliar except for the first two.

Scout wrote: "I'd forgotten about that one. I bought it when I was nineteen and got quite an education. Remember the women having armpit hair? It had a very hippyish vibe :-) Wonder how that term started - hippy..."

I think it is a take off from to be Hip. I knew it came out of the beatniks. The hippies were the new beatniks of the generation.

The Power of One is an excellent book. I was surprised to see Go Ask Alice. It was originally published in 1971. it was a right of passage for us when I was in 6th grade in the early seventies.

Which are cult books to you?

Cult books to me are the books that a minority are fans and influence those readers. They are known, but not popular, except among those that are fans of them. They seem to have enthusiastic fans. They may even be seen as fringe books.

1950s. A Catcher in the Rye
1960s Manchild in the Promised Land, The Feminine Mystique
1970s. Fear of Flying; Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
1980s - Bonfire of the Vanities
1990s. Fight Club, The Perks of Being a Wallflower

In school in the 1970s we had to read That Was Then This is Now. S.E. HInton. I don't remember the story. I do recall I did not want to read it.