All About Books discussion

Here we go......Book 5.
Considering the ending of Book 4, the title sounds ominous for Albertine.

I'm going away next week and won't start this until I'm back. It's a good time to take a break from Proust for a couple of weeks.

Is anyone starting before August? Feel free to comment.

What do you think of the work so far? Give us your gut feelings and thoughts.

Petra wrote: "Here we go......Book 5.
Considering the ending of Book 4, the title sounds ominous for Albertine."

Same thought!
But I won't start it so soon; september probably

I'm starting this weekend. I really enjoyed Sodom and Gomorrah

Yay, Joan!
I enjoyed Sodom & Gomorrah, too.

I plan on starting very soon. I have to catch up on another group read. I got behind on my vacation. It shouldn't take me long. I may join you this weekend....or a few days later.

Not before september I'm afraid: I'll be starting for the seaside in a week time and I don't find Proust a seaside read!

@Laura - have fun at the beach! And I hope you won't be plagued with neighbors like the Verdurins.

LOL, Joan!

Laura, have a great time at the seaside. It's such a lovely spot. I hope you show us a picture or two. Proust will wait.

I will Petra - but I have still a week before going!!!!

Laura, I bet it's hard waiting for this week to go by. The sea is so beautiful.

I've been reading the chapters on the volumes we've just completed in Marcel Proust's Search for Lost Time: A Reader's Guide to The Remembrance of Things Past as we've been reading along.

Today, I read the chapter on Sodom & Gomorrah. We are doing great with this read. I don't think we miss mentioning very much.
A madeleine for each of us for our observances.

I did glance at the first paragraph of the chapter for The Captive:
"The next two volumes are the most difficult and least satisfactory of all seven volumes"

........oh dear! We'll need our perseverance.

Seems that our narrator has decided not to leave his apartment in order to spend all his time with Albertine (who he states he doesn't love....and I believe him).
Albertine, though, feels she can leave the apartment.

How old is he now? Mid-20s?

More Dreyfus! Oh dear! The Dreyfus affair is much bigger than I knew it was. People in Paris (maybe all of France) didn't let it go, do they?

"For the possession of what we love is an even greater joy than love itself. Very often, those who conceal this possession from the world do so only from the fear that the beloved object may be taken from them."

Oh boy........

Petra wrote: ""For the possession of what we love is an even greater joy than love itself. Very often, those who conceal this possession from the world do so only from the fear that the beloved object may be tak..."

Told since the beginning of this book I foud Marcell a maniac!

I agree, Laura! This is one creepy dude!

What do you make of this comment by the translator of the edition I'm reading? From the introduction: "He attributes to lesbians a kind of promiscuous, predatory sexual behavior which, nowadays at least, we are told is not characteristic of female homosexuals"

Does the translator harbor suspicions about female behavior?

Petra as for the narrator's age, Evelyn Waugh had this to say,
"Well, the chap (Proust) was plain barmy. He never tells you the age of the hero and on one page he is being taken to the W.C. in the Champs-Elysees by his nurse & the next page he is going to a brothel. Such a lot of nonsense."

from a letter to John Betjeman Feb. 1948

I like Mme Guermantes taste clothes,!
https://quintessenceblog.com/fortuny-...
This site has photos of dresses by Mariano Fortuny y Madrazo was a Spanish fashion designer who opened his couture house in 1906 and continued until 1946. He was the son of the painter Mariano Fortuny y Marsal.

Ooh, I meant to look that up, too......then drifted off somewhere.
Some of those are really nice.
Thanks, Joan, for looking Fortuny up.

Joan wrote: "What do you make of this comment by the translator of the edition I'm reading? From the introduction: "He attributes to lesbians a kind of promiscuous, predatory sexual behavior which, nowadays at ..."

Hmmm, this sounds rather double-edged.
On the one hand he's saying (I think) that Proust thinks lesbians are promiscuous....then he finishes with a statement that implies that all society believes that but *we're told( this belief isn't true (implying that he believes that it is true).

Without reading the rest of the introduction, I'd say that this was more the translator's opinion than Proust's.

(on the other hand, the narrator does seem to think that Albertine is a lesbian...or has such tendencies.....and that she's just looking for a chance to hook up with a female, under the narrator's nose.....but then, he's a suspicious person, with big problems of his own).

Joan wrote: "Petra as for the narrator's age, Evelyn Waugh had this to say,
"Well, the chap (Proust) was plain barmy. He never tells you the age of the hero and on one page he is being taken to the W.C. in the..."

I've come to the conclusion that when this sort of thing happens, that a memory has been introduced, which makes the narrator momentarily younger again.
From the general timeframe of the story, this occurs just after Balbec and he was in his early to mid 20s then. He's somewhere around the same age now......I'd say mid-20s.

Marcel's view of Morel's behavior (view spoiler)[ towards the little dressmaker seems hypocritical and harsh considering Marcel treats Albertine badly (hide spoiler)]

Has Proust directly addressed the reader in the earlier books -as he does in the beginning of this one?
"...the author wishes to make clear how unhappy he would be if the reader were offended by these strange scenes."
& "The read will perhaps remember that X once said to Y that his dream was..."

I don't recall him doing it but I find it an interesting shift in style.

Yes, he did. It was rather jarring. I'll have to go back over our discussions to find out where it happened, though.

It was here, in Sodom & Gomorrah: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Unfortunately, I didn't mention what part of the story it was but Proust did tell us, the readers, to shut up and listen. LOL!

Having Proust talk with us directly again wasn't as jarring as the first time but still distracting. I think the difference is that in the first occurrence, the reader inserted himself first, then Proust. This time Proust just jumps in and starts talking with us.

Petra wrote: "Yes, he did. It was rather jarring. I'll have to go back over our discussions to find out where it happened, though.

It was here, in Sodom & Gomorrah: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"

Ah yes, I remember it now. I like the way he uses it, for me it seems Proust is signaling the narrator's maturation as a writer. At first the narrator dreamed of becoming a writer, then he wrote the stuff Norpois dismissed as twaddle and didn't do much work, then in Guermantes Way and during the second visit to Balbec he spoke about observing people as subjects for his writing and now he is beginning to think about his reader.
I feel this all ties into Proust's theme of art/observer.

Albertine asleep (view spoiler)[ the description of him watching was really creepy, so creepy, in fact, that I was touched by his not snooping in her kimono for her letters. Strange how normal behavior can seem honorable when juxtaposed with total creepiness. (hide spoiler)]
YOWZA!!!(view spoiler)[ apparently our narrator has some body image issues, yikes, "the place which in men is made ugly by something like the metal pin left sticking out of a statue when it is removed from its mould." Is this a hint that he recognizes hmself as an invert? (hide spoiler)]
How is that rendered in your translation.

"The very emptiness of her life gave Albertine a sort of eagerness to comply with the few demands I made on her."

What?!!!!??
I haven't gotten the impression that Albertine's life was empty without our narrator. Have any of you gotten that impression? This may be the narrator's own opinion, I know.
A "few demands"??!!!??? He's completely changing her life and actions. He's restricting her to a very confined existence. This is considered a "few demands"? Yikes!

This whole section (view spoiler)[ creeped me out. He is so totally self-absorbed and the way he keeps mentioning his mother vis-a-vis Albertine really makes me wonder how much contemporary psychology Proust had absorbed.
The narrator's unresolved relationship with his Mother haunts his adult life and he replays his fear that she won't come to kiss him goodnight. It seems like a simplification of Freud or Jung or somebody or other. (hide spoiler)]

Albertine sleeping warning my comments are for adult audiences only! (view spoiler)[ this section when the narrator watches Albertine sleep made me think of this tune by Monty Python https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk - I hope it makes you smile.
But it also seemed pornographic to me and pathologically obscene - because she was asleep and so had no idea what he was doing and couldn't resist if she wanted to. I can't decide if it's like a grade B horror movie or morally offensive.

But I wonder if Proust's contemporaries would not have viewed the scene as abusive. First because women did not have the same autonomy then and secondly because Albertine is a working class girl of loose morals. Notice he didn't try this with girls from the Geurmantes' set. (hide spoiler)]

Joan wrote: "Albertine asleep"

Joan, I agree that this section of watching Albertine sleep (and more) is beyond creepy. It's quite a disturbing scene. This is one sick dude!

I wasn't touched by the kimono scene. It just seemed obvious that he leave her possessions alone. I was a bit fearful that he wouldn't. He seems to have no boundaries.

I am really hoping that this isn't an autobiographical work. I'd like to think of Proust as more of a gentleman. His writing is amazing, really. I'd like to think that his person was as touching and well put together.

Joan wrote: "Albertine sleeping warning my comments are for adult audiences only! this section when the narrator watches Albertine sleep seemed pornographic to me and pathologically obscene - because she was a..."

It is an extremely offensive scene.
Was he alone with any of the girls in the Guermantes' set? I can't remember.
He was younger, too, maybe that played a part in keeping him contained?
I would hope that this scene was seen as odd, unusual, inappropriate and more by Proust's contemporaries. However, I really haven't a clue.

Joan wrote: "Albertine asleep [spoilers removed]
YOWZA!!![spoilers removed]
How is that rendered in your translation."

In my translation it says: (view spoiler)["concealing the place where a man's is disfigured as though by an iron clamp left sticking in a statue that has ben taken down from its niche" (hide spoiler)]
I'm not sure what this says about the narrator. It may be nothing more than comparing the male and female body in the sense that the female's is smooth, while the man's isn't.
Your translation does make it sound like a bit of a body image issue by using the word "ugly".
Also, the pin described is placed first, at the statue's conception, and is temporary, to be removed; the clamp described would have been put in after conception, when the statue is complete, and is a permanent fixture of the statue.

The translations are different in tone.

I did like his contemplation of how family is a part of oneself and their characteristics that we've picked up come out more as we age.
We do pick up mannerisms, sayings, habits, values from our various family members as we grow up with them. Some of these lay hidden until we're mature enough to use and/or need them; then we start doing, saying, acting as our past family members.
This is how family traits keep living on through the generations.

Petra wrote: "Joan wrote: "Albertine asleep [spoilers removed]
YOWZA!!![spoilers removed]
How is that rendered in your translation."

In my translation it says: [spoilers removed]
I'm not sure what this says abo..."
Thank you for posting the translation from your edition; they certainly are different. I guess this is one of the challenges of reading a book written in a different time and language and then translated in different eras - so many nuances in word choice.

Joan, I think the comparison of translations is interesting. It makes a single work different in many ways. I wonder how Proust put it originally and what he meant.

"...my love for Albertine was not the most barren of those to which a man may descend, for it was not entirely platonic; she did give me some carnal satisfaction....."

Ummmmm......they aren't sleeping together?
I realize she goes to her own room to sleep but thought that was a weirdness of the narrator having to sleep alone.

"True, I felt some remorse at being so insufferable to Albertine...."

Does he feel the same remorse at being so insufferable to the Reader????!!!!!

Related by a side trip:

In another book I'm reading the author says since language is symbolic, we cannot really convey thoughts, feelings & sensations. In other words, our understanding of the narrator's statements is unlikely to exactly match Proust's intentions.
I think this really applies to Proust's themes and our comparisons of different translations. I do wish that we had someone in the group reading it in French.

I'm disappointed with this volume in my set because there are very few endnotes.

Re: Carnal Knowledge

Another for mature audiences only:
In the 1990's in the US there was a bit of a health crisis because teenagers who had promised to be sexually abstinent were engaging in oral sex - in their minds "it didn't count" so pediatricians were seeing unexpected oral diseases.
On a funnier note - when I was in college a roomate came to me in a panic - she was sure that she was pregnant because she had literally slept (as in snoring) with her boyfriend- no sex ed back then so she hadn't known what not to do!

Joan wrote: "Related by a side trip:

In another book I'm reading the author says since language is symbolic, we cannot really convey thoughts, feelings & sensations. In other words, our understanding of the na..."

I would agree with this, not just in the written word but verbally as well. That's probably how most of disagreements start...something is said and something else is heard. Words mean different things to different people.
Good communication is difficult.

I was in college when I learned that my color vision is impaired - when I see orange other people see red, - as you say words mean different things to different people.

Is Proust spelling out one of his themes for this book?
"Alas, misunderstandings like the ones I often had with my parents, whom I found distant or cross at the moment I ran towards them overflowing with affection, are nothing compared with those that come between lovers."

I'm guessing that's it or very close to it. Other themes that just keeps droning on and on are jealousy, possession and obsession.

I've got to say, I'm kind of enjoying this book so far (about 25% through). If it keeps going for another 75%, I may change my mind. :D

I'd be interested to hear why you like it so far - I'm not caught up in it yet. I do keep hearing this playing in my head as I read
https://youtu.be/hM8XekYI8kI

LOL! That's priceless, Joan! Yes, it sums it up completely so far.

I think what I'm finding is the concept of why a person would want to keep someone so confined (mentally & physically). There's a rationale of "I've got to protect" and "it's for her own good" running through this. For now, I find that interesting........but I'm about done with that, I fear, and there's still 75% of this book to go, so the Narrator had better change tack. LOL!

What I don't see yet is what Albertine gets out of this relationship.
She was living with her aunt, so perhaps that home situation wasn't a good one.
She gets plenty of gifts (nice ones, it seems) from the Narrator, so she's looking better dressed than before.
She apparently doesn't have to sleep with him ....but does have to keep him somewhat carnally satisfied.
Hmmm....listing it all, perhaps she does get something out of this: good home, good food, good clothes.

We don't know much about Albertine, do we? She's quite the shadow of a person. We never see her side at all.

Maybe he's good in bed?
Seriously though, I think her social caste is important- like Odette and Rachel, being a courtesan is one way to make a living , and if you play the game right - you get a ring and you move up a rung on the social ladder. She's like a mirror image of Mme Villeparisis because Mme V. gave up her social standing for love of Norpois.

But are they having sex? (see post 36)
They are fooling around to some point and he's getting satisfaction but not necessarily through coitus, it appears. Albertine may still be a virgin (in the conventional sense).

The narrator's comments seem to say no coitus but she might just be enjoying other types of sexual contact.

I suppose, at their time, one had to be careful of birth control. That may have played a part. They are intimate to some point.

Have you read The Marriage Plot by Jeffrey Eugenides? I'm not recommending it, but it could be Albertine's story. The main character is a bright young woman a bit adrift, with some prospects/options but no real direction of her own. She falls in love, at least she believes it is love, with a man who has a plan for life, thus giving her direction. (view spoiler)[ unfortunately he is mentally ill and sometimes treats her poorly (hide spoiler)].