You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

One of the group reads for August is Hunter's Run by George R.R. Martin. Please discuss the book in this thread.

Sarah will be leading the discussion.

In order to receive a badge you must:
1. have completed the book before or during August 2017.
2. discussed it in this thread. Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc. You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread. Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.
3. Report that you have read AND discussed the book in the reporting thread (include a brief summary of what you thought of the book).

General Rules:
1. Please mark your spoilers with the spoiler tags along with mentioning what stage of the book you are at so other's don't get a nasty shock. Chapter numbers/titles are generally best as they are the same across all formats and editions.
2. The book may be combined with the Year Long Challenge, Topplers, and Monthly Challenges.

Happy reading!

This book is going to be interesting. Written by 3 authors no less. The three have worked together regularly - George R.R. Martin, Daniel Abraham and Dozois Gardner. I wonder if we'll be able to tell which bits are written by each of the authors.

This is the book to help tide you over while you wait for the next A Song of Ice and Fire book to be published.

I am looking forward to starting. It's structured easily in to chapters so that helps with discussing it.

I started this book on my way home from work today. The Overture got me wanting to find out what happened. I think we might be in for a wild ride.

I'm liking the writing style. It's easy to follow and creates suspense and has me asking questions and wanting to read on to get the answers.

I like the inclusion of colloquial words. I'm guessing some are Spanish/Portugeuse but others might well be made up alien words. I've highlighted some of them in my copy so I'm going to do some googling later.

It does feel very familiar. I guess the writing style reminds me a little of the Expanse series which Abraham cowrites.

My edition is under 300 pages which I'm pleased about. I need another shortish book.
The book is broken down in to parts and within each part it's broken down in to chapters. I've read Part 1 which consists of chapters 1 - 4 in addition to the Overture which I'm guessing is kind of like a prologue.

I have been highlighting stuff in the book so that I could come back and discuss it here. I'm reading it on two devices and they haven't synced and one has ran out of batteries so I'm going to have to wait so that I have full info on all the chapters and then I'll come back and comment.

What I can say is that I'm really enjoying the story. I have no idea where it's going to go yet but there is definitely momentum and I'm curious. It's written well which is to be expected given the caliber of the three authors. I am looking forward to the Author's Q & A section which is at the end of my book. I did have a look on the wikipedia page for the book (if you do, skip to the bottom of the page where it talks about the writing process rather than the bit at the top which gives a plot summary). It seems that Dozois started the story off but never finished it. Martin was given it to finish. Things stalled and it was then passed on to Abraham and a few additional revisions between the three created a story called Shadow Twin which was then expanded upon in to the novel Hunter's Run.

Hey all,

I've only read the Overture so far, and I can't imagine there is much to spoil at this point, but since this is my first "discussion" post I figured I should be conservative with my use of the spoiler tags until I get the feel for what's the right level of caution.

(view spoiler)[The first thing that struck me was the author(s)' way of starting you out as disoriented as the main character Ramon and slowly giving you perspective. You see what he sees (or doesn't see) and are as confused as he is, but then as he slowly works out his state and condition he pulls ahead of you, leaving you a little behind. His slowly returning memories settle him more than they do us cause we're still playing catch-up. Red skittering things on the ceiling? What? Oh, the planet has only been populated for 40 years - we're not on Earth.

I usually hate the very first couple of paragraphs of any new book (unless the author is phenomenal) because I hate the mad struggle to establish context. I feel like I'm drowning until I can get a sense of up vs. down. It was kinda fun to have the experience turned around and be made to feel like you are right there with the main character when you're going through it! (hide spoiler)]

Looks to be a fun book. If I've over-classified this as spoiler let me know. I'll get the hang of it, I'm sure.

Welcome to YLTO Steve. Good to see you jumping straight in.

As you say, not much has happened in the overture but it definitly sets the scene. I like your observations in particular about gaining clarity along with the main character. I think it was a good start to the book.

When it comes to spoilers, if your unsure if it is or isn't, err on the side of caution. Yours didn't give anything of the plot away particularly or at least nothing outside of what's in the synopsis so it would have been fine I reckon outside of the tags but leave them there now. Personally, I think it's good to be cautious.

I don't read very much science fiction, but having finished the preface and chapter 1, I am really engrossed in this book. As Steve said, it took a bit to get my bearings, (view spoiler)[ and it is an interesting plot device to have Ramon wake up in a disoriented state as the reader is trying to figure things out. (hide spoiler)] I am looking forward to the next chapter.

Elena: (view spoiler)[Elena doesn't seem very affectionate or caring toward Ramon. When she is miffed at him at the end of chapter 1 and suspicious of his involvement in the murder of the ambassador, it makes me worry about what she might do next. (hide spoiler)]

Good to see you joining us Connie.

Re. your Elena spoiler (view spoiler)[I agree. I thought she didn't seem to show much emotion or reaction to her suspicions about what happened. She didn't seem mad. That said, Ramon did expect her to be and he was pleased they didn't have a fight. Sounds like she is perhaps a little unstable but that is just an assumption. (hide spoiler)]

So what do you guys think of Ramon at this point in time? (view spoiler)[Having read that he beat someone up at a bar, I have to say I didn't instantly warm to him. I have no time for a man who throws his weight around trying to prove himself. I guess we will see if there is more to Ramon than meets the eyes. (hide spoiler)]

Part 1 (ch1-4) (view spoiler)[I liked how Overture started and finished -
both were great lines. Curious why Ramon thinks dying and going to hell would have been better than...

I reckon a glossary of terms would be good for this book. I am learning some Spanish cuss words though and you never know when they might come in handy ;-) Some of the words I've looked up don't exist so are clearly made up for this world. Chupacabras is one I thought would be made up as it refers to a cat-lizard but when I googled it, it showed that it is a name for a legendary creature which attacks and drinks the blood of livestock although it might be that their name was just borrowed for the purpose of this story as the descriptions don't match..

I loved that Ramon was on another planet colonised by humans and there were still canals AND "gypsy houseboats" on the canal with people playing "fast, festive accordion mixing with trumpets and steel drums an the shouts of the dancers." Sounds like the floating market on my canal that was on at the weekend.

I really liked the story of La Llorona, the Crying Woman.

I am worried about Ramon as a character. I want to like him as he is the MC but he has some traits I just don't like. He seems to have a problem with alcohol which makes him angry and looses his temper. I hope we've seen the last of that side of him with the murder of the ambassador.

The interaction with the alien was a bit scary. I wasn't expecting an alien to show up for some reason. I guess now we know why Ramon woke up in the dark all confused and wished he'd actually died and gone to hell.

So at the end of Part 1, I'm really intrigued. Curious how this is going to pan out. I want to find out more about the aliens. Are they from that world? Are they colonists too like the humans? I guess we'll find out.
(hide spoiler)]

ch 5-6(view spoiler)[The aliens are interesting. They seem to be able to speak Spanish pretty well although the interaction between them and Ramon is a little stilted. I guess that's to be expected given their different species and culture. I am fascinated by the alien's interpretation of character. They don't seen all that keen on Ramon at the moment what with him lacking "tateceude" and tending to "aubre". I think this is going to take a little while to get my head around. They seemed to be able to instantaneously work this out from him.

Ramon didn't really have any choice but to agree to hunt the escaped guy down. So it would seem that the aliens can separate from the whole - so they are one and many at the same time?! And we have Maneck now who will accompany Ramon on his hunt of the man. That sahael sounds a bit freaky. How does it know about Ramon's contradictions to correct? Does it sense his thoughts? His feelings or is it controlled by Maneck when he witnesses behaviour which is untoward?! Interesting concept. Perhaps this will be the thing to change Ramon for the better, getting rid of his rage and lack of control. (hide spoiler)]

Got my book today and have only read the Overture so far, but now I'm really looking forward to getting into the book. I was worried that a book by multiple authors would feel disjointed, but if the rest of the book is as well written as the Overture, I'll be super happy. Been too long since I've read good science fiction.

I think i've only read one other book with multiple authors. I guess it works if they have similar writing styles like these guys. Glad you're joining us Amanda.

Finished part 1. I'm really having a hard time liking Ramon, which makes sticking with the book a bit difficult for me. (view spoiler)[The angry, violent drunk that's been described so far doesn't really appeal to me. He's not sympathetic at all. Maybe his character will change throughout the book? The alien showing up was really interesting, I am wondering what's going to happen next with the way chapter 4 ended. It it terrible that I was kind of happy Ramon's stuff got blown up? Maybe as some kind of karmic punishment for killing the man at the bar and not really feeling bad about it? (hide spoiler)]

I felt the same about Ramon but I think things are going to change dramatically. Hopefully. I'm starting to warm to him a bit now I'm in to part 2.

How are you getting on Steve and Connie? Still liking it? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. I'm in to Part 2 now. My laptop is currently defragging which has taken all morning so far. Once it's done, I'll comment about what I've read so far.

ch7-8(view spoiler)[I am enjoying the interactions between Ramon and Maneck. There is humour there when misunderstandings occur. I particularly liked it when Maneck said "Begin by acheiving piss" when Ramon questions what his "purpose" is. The frustration and curiosity on both parts feels very real given their two very different cultures. I think Ramon having to explain things to the level he is having to is potentially helping him to see his life and his actions from a different perspective and questioning them. I bet some of the things he does he doesn't ever think about. Hunting, catching, killing and preparing the animal to eat is one such example. Upon thinking about how it must look to Maneck, he almost felt it was a barbaric, disgusting thing to do. The reasons why someone would kill a man I feel got Ramon thinking too as well as the reasons for drinking alcohol. To those who weren't sure about Ramon, has your opinion changed about him now?

I was screaming at Ramon not to attempt to kill Maneck. I like Maneck. I think he is going to be good for Ramon.

I was not expecting that Ramon isn't actually Ramon but a clone of himself. I missed the hints somehow. I remember reading them but not putting two and two together. Surely there is a conflict of interesting with Ramon hunting himself now. How is that going to pan out. So the old Ramon could go on being the guy he was and we have new Ramon now who is changing with the assistance of Maneck. I really like how the authors continue from part 1 to part 2. The reader assumed we were still with Ramon as the POV hadn't shifted. It tricked us in to believing it was the same Ramon i both parts. But no. We had Real Ramon in part 1 and New Ramon in Overture and now part 2. Very clever. What did you think to this switch? Were you duped like me or did you work it out sooner?


(hide spoiler)]

The book kept me so engrossed that I finished it in one day.

complete book
(view spoiler)[As the plot was unwinding, I was wondering what more disastrous events would befall poor Ramon. I didn't expect him to be a 'clone' of the real Ramon and that the conflict for survival would arise between the two. Maneck is a lovely character, and I was glad when he reappeared with the sahael attached to the chupacabra's neck. (too funny how low key he is) I loved that he merely told Ramon, "You have done well." (hide spoiler)]
the ending(view spoiler)[ The fact that Ramon tricks the Enye to keep them from finding Maneck's alien group makes everything seem right in the book. Ramon's idea to capitalize on the aliens' need for isolation is genius while also meeting Ramon's desire to protect them from their enemies. The greeting he gives the Maneck at the end of the book made me smile. (monster to monster!) So perfect. (hide spoiler)]

I don't read a lot of sci=fi, but this is a great book! I truly enjoyed it.

Oh wow Connie. That is really good to hear. I am glad you enjoyed it. And a 5 star read! I'd best get reading then so I can read your spoilers.

Chap 5-6 (view spoiler)[I wonder how the aliens expect Ramon to look for the guy they want him to track down if he's tied to one of them.
Are they just going to kill the guy on the spot? It would be impossible for Ramon to find the guy and lure him back to the alien's mountain in these circumstances, which is what I thought they would want him to do at first. (hide spoiler)]

Just finished chapter 7 and I think I guessed where this book is going. I'm struggling to not read spoilers for past where I am to check if I'm right. :)

I've just hit part 3. This week has been manic so haven't had chance to share my thoughts. I have tomorrow off so will comment then. Still really enjoying it.

Hit part 3 today. (view spoiler)[I loved how part 2 ended, with the two Ramons meeting. I'm starting to like clone Ramon quite a bit,
it seems like he's growing as a person. (hide spoiler)] I'm very interested to see what happens next.

ch 10 -13 (view spoiler)[I couldn't believe that Maneck and clone Ramon fell in to Ramon's trap. That explosion did some serious damage to Maneck. I was surprised that a connection could occur between Maneck and Ramon through the sahael for some reason. I think this extra insight on both parts will change them and their relationship going forward. I'm liking how clone Ramon is progressing as a person. Maneck hadn't expected Ramon to be able to use the sahael like he did. Is Ramon special? Is he more alien than we think? Does he have some special power? Or was it because Maneck was so drained and injured? I can see why the aliens want to catch up with Ramon before he makes it back to civilization - it could mean the end of them otherwise. Perhaps now cloned Ramon understands the why, he will be much more willing to help.

I really liked the quote: "This suggestions is of no effect. We did not, therefore there can be no previous shall. Your language violates the nature of time. " I think Maneck said this when Ramon said they should have done something different in the past. I am going to remember this very logical phrase when I think those "should have" type thoughts. (hide spoiler)]

ch 14-15. (view spoiler)[I thought the way Ramon went about luring one of those deadly animals towards Maneck and cloned Ramon was very clever. The fight scene when one of the animals turned up was a bit distressing. Maneck was already pretty wounded before being attacked by that thing. I think Maneck released cloned Ramon from the saheal on purpose so that they both had a fighting chance of wining against the animal. He must have known to some degree that cloned Ramon would run off.
I was a little disappointed that he did. I wanted him to jump to Maneck's rescue. I'm hoping he isn't dead. I guess Ramon and cloned Ramon coming together was inevitable and I am curious how things are going to go now. (hide spoiler)] I agree Amanda - I too liked how Part 2 ended.

ch 16 -19(view spoiler)[Not that the two Ramons are together, you can really see how cloned Ramon has developed as a character and the influence that thinking more deeply about what he does and the interactions he had with Maneck as well as being in Maneck's shoes experiencing what the aliens had at the hands of the Enye has had on him. I can recognise how much more I like cloned Ramon over old Ramon. I don't think things are going to end well though now that they have met. Ramon has too quick a temper. He's already put a knife to cloned Ramon's throat. Cloned Ramon is becoming more like Ramon and that is going to be very difficult to explain. Cloned Ramon has already had to change his story from camping Banker to cop. Not sure how happy Ramon is going to be with that story as they get closer to civilisation.

The Enye have arrived and I am wondering if cloned Ramon will help to defeat them or guide them away from the aliens or kill Ramon to keep them safe. I hope he becomes a hero. He definitely wants to make a change in his life and I think he is realising how much of a dick he was by having to interact with Ramon all the time.
(hide spoiler)]

I also thought it was interesting (view spoiler)[how different the two Ramons are. Cloned Ramon seems to be afraid of and awed by Ramon, but also to dislike him. It's a weird dynamic, but one that I'm really enjoying. (hide spoiler)]

I stopped at chapter 22. (view spoiler)[One of the things that really stuck out to me reading through the section where the two Ramons are together is how cloned Ramon refers to Ramon as his twin, or the other man, but not by his name, like he doesn't really associate the other man with himself even though he knows they are the same.

The scene on the river where cloned Ramon saves them by steering the raft onto the rock makes me wonder just how influenced by his connection with Maneck (not to mention how he came into being) cloned Ramon really is. I hope that becomes more fleshed out as we get to the end of the story, as I think it's a really interesting idea.

I don't know if I'm happy or not that Maneck is back. I was so glad for cloned Ramon when he got away from Maneck, but having the alien reappear definitely forces a coming showdown between the two Ramons, which has always felt inevitable. (hide spoiler)]

Ooh. I can't quite read your last spoiler yet. I agree about the dynamic between them Amanda. Weird but interesting.

I ended up getting engrossed in the book in the last chapters and finished it. (Kept the baby up an hour past his normal naptime to push through the book, oops! :) ) Here's my thoughts on chap 23-end.

(view spoiler)[I had been pretty sure that clone Ramon was going to kill first Ramon as soon as we realized he was a clone. It was honestly just a little disappointing to me how quickly that section was over after Maneck re-entered the story. It just felt a little unrealistic how quickly first Ramon grasped that clone Ramon was him. I would have thought he'd have some of the same struggle that clone Ramon had with it.

The change in Ramon and Elena's relationship was so fascinating to me. It's such an indication of how clone Ramon feels like he really has a chance to be a new man, a better man, and it changes Elena, too. I loved how she stood up for him in the end, lying to the police to cover for him. I also really liked how we found out that the Ramon who killed the ambassador wasn't just a drunk brawler who killed a man, but was standing up for a woman in a weak position. It kind of changed my whole perspective on the start of the book.

Not sure how I feel about Ramon going and looking for Maneck.
I don't like it when books end this way, leaving you to image what happens next. It's pretty real-life since we never know how things will turn out when we start doing something, but fiction doesn't have to work like real life, and dang it, I want a full,
satisfying ending. (hide spoiler)]

I ended up liking this book much more than I thought I would when I started it. It took me a long time to really get into it (I liked the prologue, but the initial few chapters really put me off), but I'm glad I stuck with it instead of putting it down and picking something else.

I am pleased to hear you ended up enjoying the book Amanda. It is definitely engrossing. (view spoiler)[I don't mind reading books with flawed/unlikable characters so Ramon didn't bother me so much at the beginning as it might other people. (hide spoiler)]

Hey guys I've been reading slowly over here. Sorry I wasn't here for the start of the discussions. I have in-laws in from B.C. And family over from Jamaica and the States so it's been very hard to read with soo many people over along with constant events. I just got through chapter 8 I'm hoping to get to part 3 tonight when everyone goes home for the night or goes to sleep. I'll try and post something tonight or tomorrow. Hope you guys are enjoying the book.

How are you finding it so far Danisha? What do you think of Ramon at this stage?

Just about to finish Chapter 8, so I've got some catching up to do. Very frustrating seeing all the spoilers up there and knowing I have to wait to read them! :)

(view spoiler)[My initial impression of the aliens, and Maneck in particular, is that they remind me of the creatures in C. S. Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet. It's hard to put my finger on exactly what the quality is that seems to link them. They seem a little bit cartoonish and foils for the ills of human nature. Their awkward probing of Ramon for understanding of the human way of life reminds me of the same kind of confusion and somewhat bumbling investigations that C. S. Lewis's creatures would put his human (Dr. Ransom) through. But here the aliens are a little more hostile and in a much more forceful position of power over Ramon.

Typing that just now made me wonder if there is anything to the similarities between the names Ramon and Ransom?

I also sense a big shift in style and character between the Diegotown scenes and the ones in the mountains. The urban ones are so gritty and dark, and the wilderness ones much lighter, even with the presence of the aliens. I wonder if that is intentional, or a figment of there being multiple authors? It suits the story, though, so it isn't jarring. (hide spoiler)]

Looking forward to plowing ahead. I too have had a hard time liking the main character, so I'm curious where it's going to go. But the good reviews y'all have posted so far are encouraging!

Sarah wrote: "I am pleased to hear you ended up enjoying the book Amanda. It is definitely engrossing. [spoilers removed]"

I guess that's the thing for me. (view spoiler)[I don't mind flawed characters, I generally prefer them to the unrealistically perfect characters, but I tend to not enjoy books with unlikable characters, which Ramon absolutely was at the start of the book. Ramon may be one of the most dynamic characters I've seen, although I guess the Ramon from chapter 1 and the Ramon from the end of the book aren't the same character at all. (hide spoiler)]

When I posted an hour or so ago I was a few pages shy of finishing Chapter 8. I should have waited to finish the chapter! I certainly did not see that coming! :)

Ha ha Steve. I know, me neither.

I enjoyed reading your comments Steve. I didn't realise C.S. Lewis wrote sci-fi. I'm curious now.

I agree about the shift in style (view spoiler)[I wonder if the first party was written in that gritty way to make us dislike Ramon so much at the beginning. Now in the field, things are softer as we start to see Ramon in a different light. It flows well which makes me think it was intentional to lead our thoughts and emotions about the characters as opposed to multiple authors writing the book. All these guys are used to co-writing books now. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished the book. I really enjoyed it and rated it 5 stars. I thought it was a great science fictions book and benefited from not getting bogged down in too much detail. There was enough world building and character building to make it enjoyable so that we could understand the characters and the world they live in. I will come back later and comment further. Did anyone else have the authors Q&A at the end of the book? I thought it provided the reader with additional insight in to Ramon and the morals behind the story. It would be good to discuss these a little so I've made a few notes on these to mention when I come back to this thread. I also thought it gave a good insight in to the writing process and how they all complement each other as authors.

Okay so between reading 3 books this month, all the people visiting and events I've finally gotten to part three. Since I didn't get to post earlier I've been keeping mini notes so I'll list my thoughts and question by chapters and parts.

Hunter's Run

Part One

(view spoiler)[I can see how others found Ramon unpleasant. His overall inability to control his anger and actions. How nonchalant he acts after killing the 'European'. Also his action towards Elena and how he mentally justifies their dysfunctional relationship. Along with his contempt for other races. Just to list a few.

Overall Part One has me intrigued especially the metal wall behind the mountain.
Who or what is behind this mountain?
How long have they been there?
Why have they not made themselves known to the new comers
Will anyone find Ramon out there?
Time will tell.

How do you guys feel about the writing style?
So far it's going well for me, I like the flow of the book. Will have to wait and see if you notice the change in each authors writing style.

Does anyone know which author has written this first part?

The substance Ramon was contained in and the drone like object that's been described makes me wonder how much more advanced are these beings than the other races out there? (hide spoiler)]

Part Two

Chapter 5(view spoiler)[In Chapter 5 I enjoyed the way they described his awakening in and from the sludge. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6(view spoiler)[You see again Ramon's anger working against him while communicating and questioning the Aliens. I feel like if it was someone else they may have been able to comprehend/get them to divulge more information than Ramon did. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7(view spoiler)[I find Maneck very humorous in his own way. I really like his character thus far.

On page 72-73 (for my edition)"... No," Ramon said. "It's just an animal. I need food. It is food. It's not killing, only hunting."

"...He suddenly had a flash of how odd the process must seem to Maneck: catching and killing an animal, cutting its pelt off and pulling out its internal organs, dismembering it, toasting the dead carcass over a fire, and then eating it. For a moment, it seemed a grotesque and ghoulish thing to do, and it had never seemed like that before. He stared down at the gordita in his hand, and then at his hand itself, sticky with dark blood, and the subtle feeling of wrongness he'd been fighting off all morning intensified once again."
It's interesting to see how an 'Alien' perspective can change how you perceive your everyday instincts, practices, beliefs and everyday life. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 8(view spoiler)[All I have to say is... "..."What are you talking about, monster?"
"Your distress," Maneck said. "You are becoming aware of who you are."
"I am Ramon Espejo!"
"No," the alien said, "you are not."

How did I not see this coming especially with all these rushing random memories invading his mind? The almost new born skin, dull scars. This is going to be very interesting. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 9(view spoiler)[He's very optimistic about how accepting Ramon is. Not sure he has all of Ramon's past memories at that present time. The only way I see him keeping Ramon#2 is if he came with an ON/OFF switch, so he can use him to keep Elena busy(jokes).Maybe I'm being too hard on Ramon's character 😝 (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11(view spoiler)[At this point I'm on everyone's side. At first, I didn't care for Ramon but now I'm impressed with his survival and determination. However, I don't want him to expose the Aliens.

Ramon#2 I feel for him, everything he's going through and coming to grips with...born a replica and a slave. I also find his thought processes more appealing than the 'original' Ramon.

I've had love for Maneck from the start. There are times when I don't want either Maneck or Ramon#2 to hurt each other. I like Maneck's personality; their interaction with each other and their miscommunications. All Maneck wants is to stay unknown (from what I'm gathering so far). We all know from history what happens to things that are not like the other...fear, chaos and ignorance will occur, which I feel is what Maneck is trying to avoid, hopefully. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 12(view spoiler)[I got a little further after I made this note. In this chapter, I was more or less interested in what Ramon's strange dreams where about and maybe their connection to Maneck, the sahael and 'the flow'...the way they are connected/integrated. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 13(view spoiler)[Ramon has said 'you can't understand them they are aliens' in some variation, but on this journey and ordeal he has not learnt to understand Maneck (Like Maneck has been observing and learning to understand him) until the sahael malfunction, he feels and understands certain things more than before, willingly or not. So there must be a way to understand the Enye too. It might be evil will that powers them or something different. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 14-15(view spoiler)[You really see the relationship grow between Ramon and Maneck (even though Ramon is still focused on escaping). He has a greater understanding of the pain Maneck and his kind feel, all they have lost and are fighting to keep. Also coming to realize his part in this ruse the Enye have been playing on the 'human miners' to flush out Manecks kind.

I'm very upset at how Maneck was attacked by the chupacabra I knew he might not last much longer but I was hoping. I was happy that he released Ramon#2
Even if Maneck has made it out alive how can he will himself any further?
If he dies out there will he be able to go back to 'the flow'?

Not sure how Ramon#2 missed the raft I'm going to chalk it up to disorientation, almost reaching hypothermia and coming close to death.

I can't wait to see how this introduction/showdown of 'the twins' will play out in Part Three (hide spoiler)]

Those were all my jumbled thoughts that I've jot down so far. I am kidding myself if I think I can finish it tomorrow fingers crossed for the day after tomorrow. I'm very excited to see how this all plays out, hoping to be delighted and intrigued in the end.

Going to read through some of the posts so far to see what others think.

Re your part 1 spoilers Danesha (view spoiler)[Dozois wrote the first part of the book according to the author's note. George R R Martin took over then it passed between them a bit and then Abraham came in at the end to conclude it but they all edited and amended together. I would not have picked it was by multiple authors if I hadn't known. I think the writing is seamless. I too liked it's flow. (hide spoiler)]

More on your part 1 spoilers (view spoiler)[Good point about the technology advancements. I hadn't thought about that. I guess at that point in the book though we don't know how far ahead the human colonies are either. I mean they colonised a planet is space so they must have some technology available to them but how it compares to other alien races is another matter.
(hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "More on your part 1 spoilers"

(view spoiler)[Yes, that's very true I was more so going by how they spoke about themselves as so evolved they don't need to kill, hunt for food and produce waste, they've advanced to a higher state in a sense while the trivial humans are running after food, achieving piss and wondering/longing for their purpose. On that level they seemed more advanced and at this point in the book I kind of thought maybe the sludge was some advanced substance that was keeping him confined or even healing him; rebuilding limbs lost in the blast etc. (hide spoiler)]

On your part 2 chapter 7 spoiler (view spoiler)[I too highlighted that paragraph. I really liked how having to explain things to Maneck made Ramon think about his actions more and the reasons he does things. It gave him insight and made him see the contradictions in some of the things he does. (hide spoiler)]

It would seem that we were all caught out by chapter 8. It goes to show the authors' skill at writing a good story.

I enjoyed reading your chapter 11 insights. I completely agree.

Interesting thought Danisha in your chapter 13 spoiler(view spoiler)[I wonder what drove the Enye to kill Maneck's people. Do we know what their race is called? I can't remember if it was mentioned or not. Why did the Enye choose to destroy them but work with the humans and actually help them colonise other planets?! We obviously don't have the whole picture. But being able to see their POV would be interesting. But then I'd forgotten that in ch14-15(view spoiler)[Ramon realises the colonising might be to use humans to flush out the other aliens. Why do they hate them so much? (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

I'm with you Connie and Danisha - I really liked Maneck. He was my favourite character.

Please could you edit your msg 41 so that it doesn't include the text from my spoiler in the quoted part please.

Good catch I didn't notice they took so much from the reply post. I can't wait to finish Sarah, so I can discuss the ending with you and those who are finished/finishing up.

Thanks Danisha. Yes it is an annoying thing on GR which can catch people out.

I still need to add my thoughts on the rest of the book. I am aiming to do that this morning.

My scattered thoughts.

Ch 21 (view spoiler)[This quote sums up the two Ramons perfectly.
" these last few days had been different for the both of them. There was no reason that they should be identical now. They’d had different experiences, learned different lessons from the world. He hadn’t lost a finger. His twin hadn’t had the sahael digging into his throat. You are not to diverge from the man, Maneck’s voice rumbled in the back of his mind. But how could he help it? The world looked different, depending on where you sat." I guess it subtly talks about the nature-nurture debate and highlights how being identical in dna and biology (like twins) even with the same memories (not like twins) that they can turn out differently based on their day to day experiences. I'm guessing that Ramon 2 gained additional insight from knowing that he was a clone and was able to see Hinson lf and his downfalls in Ramon 1 whereas Ramon 1 seemed oblivious to the clone until the last minute. I can't help think that he noticed subconsciously earlier on but would rather believe something more tangible. Like the police story.

So pleased to see Maneck alive and he's captured the chupacabra. Brave man. I like how Ramon 2 almost felt sorry for the beast having known what it was like to be enslaved by the sahael.
(hide spoiler)]

Ch 22 - 24 was tense. (view spoiler)[I guess we all knew that Ramon 1 would realise what Ramon 2 was sooner or later. His anger kicks in as expected too. But it's not going to end good for him. It's in Ramon 2's interests to be shot of Ramon 1. But also he wants to protect the aliens and the only way to guarantee this is to kill Ramon 1. Maneck is gunning for Ramon 1 too. His days are numbered. It was touch and go there for a while as to who would win so pleased to see the sahael turn up although I was surprised as Ramon 2 was that Maneck could detach it and it could do it's own thing. Scary. I am pleased that Ramon 2 mourned the death of his original. It felt very realistic. (hide spoiler)]

Part 4 to end. Interesting that a lot more foreshadowing has started to be used in this section. Abraham's influence perhaps?! (view spoiler)[Ramon was really in bad shape. Pleased he was found is on the mend even if he is confined to the hospital under police scrutiny.
I'm curious how he's going to get out of this. Someone else has been pinned for the murder but now he becomes the fall guy. Not a good position to be in.

I thought Elena was going to bury Ramon when she was called in for questioning. Funny Ramon should be questioned over the robe. Why the police allowed the questioning over something small is beyond me. Did they not demand an explanation from the Enye? Are they scared of them? Do they ultimately answer to them? So glad Elena came through for Ramon and that the woman he saved helped him out. At first I was disappointed that Ramon went back to Elena but it fits and is realistic. Ramon has changed but perhaps a happy ever after with him and Lianna is a bit much to ask.

This kind of thing is so wrong. Police on power trips. Not liking being embarrassed and shown up in public having to get their own back. I hate power plays. I didn't expect them to throw Ramon in with Joe. Kind of proves his guilt but I guess it's not the reason they did it. Ramon muses: "Maneck and the aliens had collared him like a dog, but they hadn’t locked him in with a psychopath just for fun. It took a human to do that." Excellent line. Ramon 1 and others mock and hate the aliens because they lack humanity but the lack of humanity occurs in humans all too frequently.

I really liked this quote too: "Instead of obsessing about it, Ramon tried to pinpoint the moment that he’d stopped thinking of Maneck and the aliens beneath the mountain as his enemies. It had to have happened. He had dedicated himself to killing them for the indignities they’d heaped upon him, and now here he was, wondering if he would be strong enough to die to protect them if the need arose." Can you pinpoint where he changed his mind? He called Maneck monster throughout out but what started as a derogatory term became one of endearment.

I really liked the ending. Ramon made some of the changes he'd planned but still stayed true to character. True to how he would behave. How man would behave. The deal he planned to propose to the aliens. I love the acceptance he gained of himself and the balance he achieved. He found somewhere to belong and something to care about which was lacking in his life. He embraced a world which suited his personality and which supported him and healthy behaviours. I loved his reunion with Manack.
(hide spoiler)]

Q&A remarks. Don't read until you've finished the book. (view spoiler)[
Dosois writes this about Ramon: "
Ramon at the beginning of the story is both not as good as he thinks he is and not as bad as he thinks he is. By the end, he’s gotten a more realistic appraisal of what his obligations and abilities are. The Ramon at the end of the story is a better one – not in a goody-goody way – than the one at the start." Do you feel that is an accurate account of what happened to Ramon? I think it's spot on. There was good in the bad Ramon and bad in the good Ramon. Nobody is perfect after all. If Ramon had become a goody goody at the end, it would have been unrealistic. As much as we might have wanted him to have a different ending. What do you think?

The authors mention the theme about what it means to be human running through the story. Do you think they portrayed the theme well? I think the interactions between Maneck and Ramon and Both Ramons brought out different aspects of this theme but it was more obviously highlighted with the interactions between Ramon and the cops at the end in my eyes.

They also mention "We’ve got a guy who has this encounter with something that’s just barely explicable, and it changes him by making him more authentically himself." I love this. Sure Ramon changed. We often say people change and become a different person. A new person. But that is just a figure of speech really. When people change, it is that they become more true to themselves. Whether that's becoming kinder to themselves, more assertive, more positive etc. What are your thoughts on this?
(hide spoiler)]

The author q&a added more to the story for me. I am pleased they included that at the end and that i chose to read it. I've been guilty in the past of not reading that kind of thing. I would recommend you read it if you have it in your book.