Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

I'm at the starting stage of the 'Seeking the Everlasting Gospel Teaching Series.' The book title "In the Beginning" is actually my third book published therein, where I found it necessary to cover the controversial topic of 'metaphors' in the Written Word to purposefully set the stage for all other books which will follow afterwards ... But, why is the topic controversial? A lot of folks don't actually believe that the Word of God is dashed with idioms, parables, similitude's and figures, seeing as such an idea just may harm the literalism which many declare is the 'simplicity of Christ.' And yet (as I point out in this third book), even Jesus boldly declared that He hid His messages behind the institution of metaphors to purposely hide truths from some who merely want to use the Word for self-promotion and worldly gain - seeing as such a thing could be a usurping tool to become a king themselves! Therefore, knowing this, we can easily see that when God's Word is being mishandled, in such a horrid way, that it's not the actual truth being used to fool those poor, misguided people; but is, instead, only a pale, man-made religious substitute that will never actually bring life to their listening audience ... The blind shall lead the blind into a deep ditch! ... But, thankfully, God has preserved His pure Word unscathed for those who actually have a love for it, and an actual love for Him ... All this is not saying, however, that God didn't create this world and universe literally and physically as it so declares in Genesis chapter 1; but, as we will see, the Spiritual creation was made along with, and at the same time, as the Natural creation - for, what we read naturally therein also has a metaphoric counterpart (by using the same exact words) that describes our own, personal Spiritual creation, which actually shows us that while God was creating a temporal existence in this natural universe, that He was also creating eternal existences for His children ... Goodreads Giveaway for "In the Beginning: It was Spiritual from the very start" actually begins today (Aug 8th through Oct 31st, 2017); 2 signed copies. Giveaways are for USA residents only.
In the Beginning: It Was Spiritual From the Very Start

Ted wrote: "I'm at the starting stage of the 'Seeking the Everlasting Gospel Teaching Series.' The book title "In the Beginning" is actually my third book published therein, where I found it necessary to cover..."

Ted - Where is it written that "Jesus boldly declared that He hid His messages behind the institution of metaphors to purposely hide truths from some who merely want to use the Word for self-promotion and worldly gain"?

Lance wrote: "Ted - Where is it written that "Jesus boldly declared that He hid His messages behind the institution of metaphors to purposely hide truths from some who merely want to use the Word for self-promotion and worldly gain"?..."

I second that.
I'd like to see that quote as well.

This means that somebody is actually reading my posts :-) You're correct, it doesn't say that 'directly.' Yet, if we sift through what Jesus 'meant' in Matthew 13:10-17, especially when He said, in verse 13, 'Therefore speak I to them in parables' [and, indeed, on down to verse 17], He was answering the disciples' question [from verse 10] of why He taught people in 'parables' instead of simple, plain speech to where just about anybody could hear and understand. Therefore, my quote, as to what Jesus said, was really a deciphering of what He meant from these particular verses [and a 'hook' to see if anybody is paying attention!]. However, and at the same time, this will also depend on how we interpret the word 'parable' from these verses in the King James Version of the scriptures. And if, possibly, I could prove that by the word 'parable' that 'metaphors' were the actual meaning, then, yes, I could say, with certainty, that Jesus boldly declared that He hid His messages behind the institution of metaphors [i.e. parables] to purposely hide truths from some who merely want to use the Word for self-promotion and worldly gain. I fully go over these reasons in chapter 1 of my book [whilst explaining about the spirit of a Pharisee!], and in detail, too. Unfortunately, the preview here on Goodreads for my book is limiting, and we cannot fully see chapter 1. But, on my personal website, I not only give the full chapter to be read, but I also give the necessary End Notes for chapter 1 so that a proper balance can be seen of why I have even said this to begin with ... Thank you for the question ... http://www.seekingthegospel.com/inthe...

Ted wrote: "I'm at the starting stage of the 'Seeking the Everlasting Gospel Teaching Series.' The book title "In the Beginning" is actually my third book published therein, where I found it necessary to cover..."

I do find this interesting, and something I have examined in my own writing. But, whose words are these?
Which copy of what Bible are you referring to?
I only refer to King James Ist version, but then I know, most of the original was written in either Aramaic or latterly, Hebrew.

And that in turn implies, we are reading the words of man, exclusive of women, interpreting, often for their own benefit, "God's Word." Muslims claim to embrace this same God, as do the Jews and most of world that believes in The One God.

These are the words, the fanaticism of men wanting to control the populous, and their women. Virtually all western religions are misogynistic at the core = controlling what [most] men desire.

I send this in the spirit of friendship and enquiry, please do not think badly of me. But, these are all the words of 'Man'.

Hey, John, no worries! I used to share similar opinions as you do about the Written Word of God. After all, if man composed it, then corruption surely had seeped in! However, I feel that God has helped me on this issue, and I fully plan on covering this topic in a future book project called 'The Bible is not a Buffet.' However, in this present book, 'In the Beginning,' I do cover the topic somewhat. I suppose you could call it an introduction to that topic, because people have real legitimate questions and concerns about the Bible! I don't see questions like yours as an attack on God or Christianity, but I do see it as a healthy challenge to give a really good answer to this age-old problem; and, like me, you would like to see some sound answers! In this book, I ask a simple question, in the form similar to this: "If God is truly God, then is He capable of preserving His Word throughout time, despite man's hands having composed it?" I give an introductory answer to it ... As for your question of what Bible I use, I do prefer the original King James, which I do have a copy of the 1611 version, but I also like the updated version (which we mostly use today) from the late 1700's. I also use the William Tyndale Version, and the more modern J.P. Green Literal Translation, which is found in the Interlinear Bible. Thank you for your inquiry...

Thanks Ted,
I'll mark this as 'to read'.

Best wishes with your literary project,
Jonno

Thank you, Jonno! I appreciate the support :-) Have a great evening...

Ted wrote: "This means that somebody is actually reading my posts :-) You're correct, it doesn't say that 'directly.' Yet, if we sift through what Jesus 'meant' in Matthew 13:10-17, especially when He said, in..."

Thanks Ted. Something you wrote stood out for me above all else...

I refer to your (abbreviated) comment, "this will also depend on how we interpret the word".

Though I have taken this phrase out of context, it could be applied to many passages from the Good Book, and therein lies the problem... it is all too often open to interpretation. Hence the great number of Christian denominations and dare I say sects in existence.

It seems you can draw any conclusion you like (or any conclusion that may suit certain agendas) from many of the metaphors or parables you mention...

Hey, Lance, thank you for the comment! I completely agree with your assessment, and of the reasons why there are so many denominations! And yet, what stresses me the most is when each one puts a final stamp onto their beliefs, and not only do they not allow their own thoughts and beliefs to be challenged, but they demand that their followers do the same! Hence, my mentioning of Jesus hiding the deep truths to those with the spirit of a Pharisee! Not only so, but the Apostle Paul jumps in on this topic as well: 1st Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." i.e. it was Spiritual from the very start. And, also: 1st Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This is a very strong topic that I am tackling here, but I feel that it is extremely necessary since so many people have closed their minds where God Himself can lead them if they can but give in to the true teacher of the universe - the Spirit of Truth, which issues forth from the Father. I'm also hoping that my attempt here will help folks break away from the traditions of men in, not only the way that the have been taught to look at the Written Word of God, but of their ritualistic, worship practices which have been instituted by the precepts of carnal man.

Ted wrote: "Hey, Lance, thank you for the comment! I completely agree with your assessment, and of the reasons why there are so many denominations! And yet, what stresses me the most is when each one puts a fi..."


How simpler it would be for believers and would-be believers if the bible's messages were clearer and less open to interpretation. I guess this is where the word "faith" comes into the discussion...

Well, Lance, you just hit the nail on the head of the reason for my topic, and of why God decided to mask these things to begin with. Yes, it would have been simpler; but, too, it would be too easy for man to revel in fleshly glory if they could say - "Look at what I have done! Look at what I have said!" Glorification is reserved for God alone.

Ted wrote: "Well, Lance, you just hit the nail on the head of the reason for my topic, and of why God decided to mask these things to begin with. Yes, it would have been simpler; but, too, it would be too easy..."

You've lost me there, mate. (And a lot of others, too, I suspect). The bottom line is the Good Book is very hard to fathom, and its cause ain't helped by all the metaphors you refer to.

Are you implying, then, that the Good Book is too difficult for mere man to truly understand? And that an effort to try and decipher it is only futile? If that is the case, and if there is a God, then why give it to man at all? Why merely tease mankind with an undecipherable code? ... What I have simplified as 'metaphors' is merely a mask for things much deeper; a way to help folks understand why it even mentions parables, figures, similitude's, and allegories - which words the Bible itself uses. I am of the group who feels that it's not as difficult to learn what the Bible is saying in riddles as many feel that it is. However, I also feel that one cannot learn its secrets with only the mere assistance of the mind and spirit of man, but that it truly takes the Spirit of God as our guide. In fact, the Good Book is very plain on that score, with such thoughts as: Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Also: Ecclesiastes 3:11 "He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end." And: Ecclesiastes 8:17 "Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it." What is to be said of all this? That's it's simply impossible to find out anything about God? Such a question makes no sense when we realize that, again, if there is a God, then He would desire communication from us to Him, and would therefore make it extremely possible for some folks to finally learn about Him and what He expects from us ... However, as I've been saying, the Good Book is also very plain that He hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to those who actually have not only a love for truth, but a true love for Him and His followers. In fact, that's so important, that John the Apostle says that this instrument (i.e. true agape Godly love) will cause us to rise from death unto life: 1 John 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." And, also: John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." If these things are hid, then they are hid to those who are so eaten up with carnal flesh, and self will, that they will never come to the true knowledge of the truth: 2nd Corinthians 4:3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." ... So says the Good Book ... Also, I doubt that I have been too shadowy to have lost everybody with what I have been saying :-)

Ted wrote: "Are you implying, then, that the Good Book is too difficult for mere man to truly understand? And that an effort to try and decipher it is only futile? If that is the case, and if there is a God, t..."

Yes that's what I'm implying, Ted. If it wasn't too difficult to truly understand we likely wouldn't have all the denominations and sects I referred to earlier.

I refer you to the Forbidden History of the Bible discussion threads at https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group... - and invite you enter into any of those discussions. Your opinions will be welcomed.

Thank you, Lance. I appreciate that. And, I also thank you for this engaging conversation :-)

I do believe Jesus meant some of the things He said to be taken as literal, and some things as metaphor/parable to hide truth for a time, and when elect become more mature, Holy Spirit will unlock truths in Jesus' parables, the parable of the Bible, parable of nature and history, etc... It takes maturity and wisdom to hear Father God declare what is literal versus metaphor, inward versus outward, individual versus communal, absolute versus relative, or proper mixture of the different sides to things. I have the gift of parables, and both write and explain some on this page. In fact supernatural symbolic parables are so important in teaching spiritual truths that I believe Holy Spirit has revealed to me a secret about the early church and time of the apostles.

The gospel writers wrote their gospels decades after Christ's resurrection, after they started having supernatural spiritual experiences and came to understand Jesus better, like I have. To preserve the truths that Jesus said, they wrote fanciful supernatural fictional accounts of what He said in the form of parable stories, the entire teaching style of Jesus, and the way they encoded what He meant by what He said. Nothing supernatural happened in Jesus' ministry at all, except He spoke Holy Spirit inspired supernatural words that sort of stimulated their consciences and later they came to understand the inward supernatural miracle of evolving into God in their imaginations, and how important parables/symbolism is to spiritual growth and maturation. Jesus did appear to rise from the dead, and appeared to them after He died and did supernatural things to inspire and challenge them. But that is the only legitimately supernatural outward thing He did. All the rest of what the gospel writers wrote was their way of writing a parable of inward supernatural spiritual understanding. For example, hearing the voice of God became instant physical healing of deaf people in the gospels. "Seeing" (understanding) God in nature and scripture became opening literal blind eyes. Feeding 5000 instantly with physical fish and bread was just their way of codifying in parable form that in later years the disciples understood Christ said He was the bread of life (truth) and fully assimilating truth inwardly about eternal life, through the proper understanding of the mind of God is what brings eternal life. The early church came to understand supernatural parable symbolism and how flexible it is, and the whole Bible is a parable, that they started to spin spiritual meanings in so many ways. There were many fanciful "gospels" circulating about, gospel of Mary, Philip, Thomas, Judas, etc... and none were taken literally at the time, but rather understood and respected as a parable way to expound on eternal spiritual truths Christ spoke, in similar manner as Christ Himself did, but making Christ lead character in many of the gospel "parables". History shows that when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire, spiritual anarchy abounded. So many wacky gospels full of fanciful supernatural stories about Jesus, that the empire did what all physical organizations do to keep order, implement fear tactics to force compliance to established truth by sinful flawed human leaders. The council of Nicea determined what was "truth" and what was "true" gospels and banned the rest as heresy, dictating the four gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as all literal accounts of Jesus' life. The Catholic church arose in time and burned many at the stake in dark ages history, etc...to enforce their power structures in same way as Rome crucified Christ, vicious manners. Brutal tactics to keep order/discipline like done in physical groups is all gone at the next level, after physical death, by the way. All this was inevitable in history, and Jesus knew it would happen before He died, just as the early apostles came to understand negative spirituality better (excessive negative consequences to control others in a groupthink), as they started getting kicked out of the very churches they established, and apostasy was full-blown before they even died. Physical organizations inevitably start to make the organization "God", and more important than individuals, less a family feeling of support, unconditional love and acceptance, and more reflective of perceived negative aspects of God, like negative consequence "hell", fear, manipulation and control tactics. As physical organizations get bigger, leaders need to play "God" and define "truth" for the organization, make rules and decisions about who is in and who is out, and curtail freedom for fear of anarchy if everybody is allowed to decide everything for themselves. We can't do better than God in the world of humans, who created the physical nation of Israel to picture groupthink problems, as a society needs rules, laws, secular leaders (kings), religious leaders (priests), but it only pictures the family groupthink of God. Jesus connected in His Spirit (mind) with the spiritual groupthink, Father, Son, elect, angels, demons even, who are currently enemies but being dealt with. The things of groupthink point to things in the spirit realm, but the groupthink of the family of God is never fully represented properly in any physical organization, as they all feel the need to keep order sometimes in ungodly ways. In today's world, human imagination still reigns, and we have wildly creative ways to interpret even the four "authorized" gospels, which have spawned 50 thousand bickering denominations, and some control structures to determine "truth" for us. For example, 50 thousand bickering denominations still pretty much agree you must believe in trinity or you will burn in literal hellfire forever. The trinity edict from the council of Nicea still stands in the minds of most Christians. However, my main site details many reasons why I believe both these cherished doctrines are in error, and hell is about fiery correction to save, not literal fire forever.

Metaphors and parables to teach are so important I believe God inspired me to create a page with some to instruct at: https://www.theoriginofgod.com/parabl...