Reading Envy Readers discussion

Here is discussion space for week 1.

I don't know about you but I'm a "put a book down and google the details" reader so I've already discovered that while there is a Cataract Mountain (Glacier National Park, Montana), Mt. Cataract is fictional.

How about that first line of the prologue? Intriguing!

I love that first sentence! I've read this book several times and the first line always gets me settled in for an amazing story. One of my favorite things about this book is how in the Prologue, you learn the who, what, where and when. The entire rest of the book is why. It's amazing.

Interesting tidbit about Mount Cataract. I'm about 60 pages in and wish I could remember some of the Greek history and myths I learned about in high school and college. After the character introductions I went back and reread the prologue, I think this will be an intriguing read.

The writing feels solid enough, and I trust the author, mostly. And yet, I'm feeling a little bummed out. I'm not sure if it's pacing, or character reveal, or a perceived lack of room for empathy, but there's narrative distance, a flatness that makes reading... a little uphill.

I'll be curious to see if I feel differently as I continue.


Maybe I'm a jerk, but that first line nags me, it sticks in my gizzard.

Casey wrote: "The writing feels solid enough, and I trust the author, mostly. And yet, I'm feeling a little bummed out. I'm not sure if it's pacing, or character reveal, or a perceived lack of room for empathy, ..."

Have you read other books by Tartt? I would say that even when she has you hooked she writes a bit coldly.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Have you read other books by Tartt? I would say that even when she has you hooked she writes a bit coldly.."

No, this is my first Tartt.
Maybe that's what I'm trying to put my thumb on, there's coldness where I want sweat and fever. I want an itch in the brain you can't scratch, and I got ice tea with a lemon wedge. Thing is, while I don't exactly feel "hooked," I am mowing down her words. And in this respect, the author is successful.

But am I reading to find out, or to get through/beyond...?

I read secret this years ago and had forgotten a lot of the story. The only other Donna tartt ive read was The Goldfinch and i have mixed thoughts about it, i was enjoying it ,including the infamous las Vegas portion until the last 100 pages which annoyed me i recall.
What immediately strikes me so far is how unpleasant the characters are, although the story is unfolding nicely as Richard is a fish out of water and his lies are being laid down as i suspect very unstable foundations.
It reads a lot like a Patricia highsmith novel and reminds me of Tom Ripley especially with the 50's college setting.
I am certainly enjoying so far although as a strict one book at time person im not sure how i will manage to keep putting it down and pace myself.

Jeff wrote: "Interesting tidbit about Mount Cataract. I'm about 60 pages in and wish I could remember some of the Greek history and myths I learned about in high school and college. After the character introduc..."

Jeff, I was having the same thoughts! I recently went back over The Oresteia, but this book is making me want to do a course-length study.

I'm enjoying this a lot so far. I like that I don't like the characters and the air of hazy mystery plus the underlying animosity that's building reminds me of The Lord of the Flies and even a bit of Heart of Darkness. Interesting and an engaging read, I think.

I am suddenly struck by the resemblance of the initial descriptions of the group of students taking Greek with the group of students in Tana French's book The Likeness. A small group, set apart from the rest of the student body, hard to infiltrate.

One of the things I loved about The Likeness was how much it reminded me of The Secret History. 😁

I'm not entirely sure how it happened, but I seem to have found myself well beyond the week's allotted reading. Oops?
Can't. Stop. I'm loving it!

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Here is discussion space for week 1.

I don't know about you but I'm a "put a book down and google the details" reader so I've already discovered that while there is a Cataract Mountain (Glacier Na..."

I am this kind of reader, too :) Until my paper copy arrives, I am reading on my Kindle which makes looking things up very easy. I think the paper book is going to end up with lots of book darts.

Sara wrote: "I'm not entirely sure how it happened, but I seem to have found myself well beyond the week's allotted reading. Oops?
Can't. Stop. I'm loving it!"

Just starting chapter 3-I finally got hooked at about 80 pages in. Slow build but she has me now.

I'm about 100 pages in and I'm wondering about when this book takes place? I know in Chapter One Richard states that he is twenty-eight years old so he is telling his story 10 years in the future, and I know Donna Tartt attended a college in VT in the 80s similar to the one she made up for this book, so maybe the 80s or 90s? The way Bunny speaks makes it seem earlier than the 80s to me. Any ideas?

Amanda wrote: "One of the things I loved about The Likeness was how much it reminded me of The Secret History. 😁"

Sue wrote: "I am suddenly struck by the resemblance of the initial descriptions of the group of students taking Greek with the group of students in Tana French's book The Likeness. A small group, set apart fro..."

Too funny, someone said this in an email to me as well.

Casey wrote: "Maybe that's what I'm trying to put my thumb on, there's coldness where I want sweat and fever."

Andrew wrote: "It reads a lot like a Patricia highsmith novel "

These two comments struck me as going together - I love Highsmith but also find her fairly cold, with all her sociopaths and all.

So going into chapter 1, I had this thought in my head, and found a few interesting tidbits. (view spoiler)[

"[Julian's] students -- if they were any mark of his tutelage -- were imposing enough, and different as they all were they shared a certain coolness, a cruel, mannered charm which was not modern in the least but had a strange cold breath of the ancient world... moreover this strange quality, far from being natural, gave every indication of having been intensely cultivated." (pg. 31 in my edition)

When Henry is describing how they could take the town:
"...I felt an unexpected thrill at the coldness of his voice." (pg. 37 in my edition) (hide spoiler)]

So now I have my eye out for other mentions of the cold!

One thing I loved in Chapter 1 are the characterizations. I marked some so will type them up in case my stickies come out.

Julian
"He put his head to the side and blinked again, bright-eyed, amiable as a sparrow."
"Though he gave quite the opposite impression, of freshness and candor, it was not spontaneity but superior art which made it seem unstudied."

Henry Winter
"Quite large, well over six feet - was dark-haired, with a square jaw and coarse, pale skin. He might have been handsome had his features been less set, or his eyes, behind the glasses, less expressionless and blank. He wore dark English suits and carried an umbrella and he walked stiffly through the throngs of hippies and beatniks and preppies and punks with the self-conscious formality of an old ballerina...."
An old ballerina!

Edmund (Bunny) Corcoran
"Sloppy blond boy, rosy-cheeked and gum-chewing, and with a relentlessly cheery demeanor... he wore the same jacket every day, a shapeless brown tweed that was frayed at the elbows and short in the sleeves, and his sandy hair was parted on the left, so a long forelock fell over one bespectacled eye... His voice was loud and honking."
"His voice was nasal, garrulous, W.C. Fields with a bad case of Long Island lockjaw."

Camilla
"Their eyes were the same color of gray, intelligent and calm. She.. was very beautiful, in an unsettling, almost medieval way which would not be apparent to the casual observer."

Francis Abernathy
"... stalking across the meadow like a black bird, his coat flapping dark and crowlike in the wind."
"His voice was cool and Bostonian, almost British."
"[His right hand] was bony and soft-skinned as a teenage girl's."

Yes, I love her characterizations! She writes beautifully and I feel completely transported to Vermont.

A few thoughts regarding characters:

For several pages, I was convinced that Francis was going to be revealed as a love interest for our narrator (Richard).

I find myself wishing that Camilla was a bit more fleshed out. As the only girl in this group, it seems she should play a more significant role or have a better developed personality.

Sara wrote: "For several pages, I was convinced that Francis was going to be revealed as a love interest for our narrator (Richard)."
Well considering what Francis says to him in Latin!

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Well considering what Francis says to him in Latin!"
Yes! Possibly the most sophisticated pickup line I've ever come across.

Sara wrote: "Yes! Possibly the most sophisticated pickup line I've ever come across."

Hmm, now this makes me wonder about the best literary pickup lines. This may be list-worthy for future reads.

Casey wrote: "Sara wrote: "Yes! Possibly the most sophisticated pickup line I've ever come across."

Hmm, now this makes me wonder about the best literary pickup lines. This may be list-worthy for future reads."
It's a Book Riot post waiting to happen.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Casey wrote: "Sara wrote: "Yes! Possibly the most sophisticated pickup line I've ever come across."

Hmm, now this makes me wonder about the best literary pickup lines. This may be list-worthy for ..."

They've already done something with Harry Potter pickup lines 🙃

Sara wrote: "Yes, I love her characterizations! She writes beautifully and I feel completely transported to Vermont.

A few thoughts regarding characters:

I find myself wishing that Camilla was a bit more fleshed out. As the only girl in this group, it seems she should play a more significant role or have a better developed personality. .."

This is my second DT. I didn't think about this point until I read your comment, but interesting to note that most of the major characters in this book as well as The Goldfinch are boys/men.

Lorraine wrote: "Sara wrote: "Yes, I love her characterizations! She writes beautifully and I feel completely transported to Vermont.

A few thoughts regarding characters:

I find myself wishing that Camilla was a ..."

That's something I've noticed about Tartt's books, too, and I wish we get more of Camilla beyond the "manic pixie intellectual dream girl" vibes. I think that's why I love her second novel The Little Friend; the main character is a twelve-year-old girl, Harriet, and far from cute. In fact, in her own way, she's quite alarming, and I loved her.

I'm not a huge rereader and the number of books I've read three times is minuscule but I'm glad I decide to read this again. It's like a reunion or homecoming of sorts. I love Tartt's style. I think her descriptions are beautiful and I find myself completely lost in her words.

I'm just starting chapter 3 at this stage Henry and Camilla are my favorites.

I'm almost through chapter three and it's starting to grab me. I must say though how coincidental the names Charles and Camilla seem to me. My first visuals of them were of the royal family and it was throwing off the story for me. Thankfully that's fading as I get to know the characters better. ☺

In addition to the characterizations Jenny mentioned, I made notes of the family backgrounds of the group from the first few pages in Chapter One. Henry's is mentioned later, and more background of the group trickles in here and there as the book goes on. They are such interesting characters, most of them, anyway.

I'm through Chapter Three and it seems to be getting better as it goes on. Hard to put down now.

The other thing I wanted to mention about Chapter 1 (so much in one chapter!) is all of what I can only guess is foreshadowing. The stuff about the Greeks and Romans and how despite their advanced intellect they had to go crazy and abandon reason in festive bacchanalia. Since we know something goes wrong from the prologue, I'm assuming this is all not so thinly veiled foreshadowing!

Yes! What you said, Jenny. (I'm on my phone and can't quote you.....sorry). I noted that same thing on Litsy.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "The other thing I wanted to mention about Chapter 1 (so much in one chapter!) is all of what I can only guess is foreshadowing. The stuff about the Greeks and Romans and how despite their advanced ..."

I'd wondered about that, too. I thought it felt a little heavy-handed, but this may just be me.

I also wondered about how the natural world was interacting with narrative, aside from the sense of place.

Casey wrote: "I also wondered about how the natural world was interacting with narrative, aside from the sense of place. "
Only 1 chapter in, I'd say we can at least say that the significant changes in landscape serve to create an otherwordly feel for the narrator, who is out of his element.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Casey wrote: "I also wondered about how the natural world was interacting with narrative, aside from the sense of place. "
Only 1 chapter in, I'd say we can at least say that the significant change..."

Yes, but we also learn in the prolog what snow did with concealing the body, and there's that bit about the schizophrenic trees and their foliage, and even character names engage the natural world.

Casey wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Casey wrote: "I also wondered about how the natural world was interacting with narrative, aside from the sense of place. "
Only 1 chapter in, I'd say we can at least sa..."

Yes! Covering the body! So true. I'll be interested to see where this goes.

From the prologue:
"What are you doing up here? said Bunny, surprised, when he found the four of us waiting for him."

Four of us - we know Henry and Richard are two of those four, so out of Charles, Camilla and Francis, who wasn't there???

Marchpane wrote: "From the prologue:
"What are you doing up here? said Bunny, surprised, when he found the four of us waiting for him."

Four of us - we know Henry and Richard are two of those four, so out of Charle..."

INTRIGUING

I want to be reading right now but I drew the short straw and am working at my library until 10. Guess I'll wait to tomorrow....

Carol Ann wrote: "I'm almost through chapter three and it's starting to grab me. I must say though how coincidental the names Charles and Camilla seem to me. My first visuals of them were of the royal family and it ..."

Ha! I totally agree! I am finally past it but it took me awhile to get past the mental image.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "The other thing I wanted to mention about Chapter 1... The stuff about the Greeks and Romans and how despite their advanced intellect they had to go crazy and abandon reason in festive bacchanalia."

So in one of those bits of Book Serendipity that I love so much-last month, my Classics in Briefs book club read a collection of three plays by Euripides, including The Bacchae. I bought the book, but didn't read it or go to the meeting, yet here I am reading about it all the TSH :)

Just looked up the Audible version. Donna Tartt narrates the unabridged audio version. Very tempting! This is a re-read for me, so listening to it might be interesting. I'm chuckling and shaking my head at how much I don't remember! To be kind to myself, that was 25 years ago!

Robin wrote: "Just looked up the Audible version. Donna Tartt narrates the unabridged audio version. Very tempting! This is a re-read for me, so listening to it might be interesting. I'm chuckling and shaking my..."

Wow I ran to listen to the preview. I won't get the audio because 22 hours, phew, but now I can keep her voice in my head. Kind of funny to energy her say "my name is Richard Pepin.."

The audio book is totally worth listening to! I had to buy it, I loved it so much.

Last night I read the chapter where Richard can't find H,F,C and C.
I'm not sure where everyone is up to but can someone explain whether there is any symbolism to Henry's description of the events in the woods .
Also re time frame, earlier Henry is updated about men having recently walked on the moon but when Richard rings the airline company he hears the lady tapping information into her computer. Is this a continuity error.
Anyway I am enjoying the tension and as others report once you are hooked the narrative moves along although the next chapter that takes me up to the end of part one and about page 300 is about 120 pages long so I am girding my loins and may read it in chunks over the weekend with my other reads.

Ooh now I want the audio!

Andrew wrote: "Also re time frame, earlier Henry is updated about men having recently walked on the moon but when Richard rings the airline company he hears the lady tapping information into her computer. Is this a continuity error...."
I noticed this too. Originally I thought it would be set during the 80s because that's when Donna went to college, but not knowing a man landed on the moon? Maybe that's tongue in cheek?

Also at the restaurant he is asked if he has a card... how long ago did cards start being a thing? Might be another clue.

Elizabeth wrote: "The audio book is totally worth listening to! I had to buy it, I loved it so much."

She narrates The Little Friend, too. A few weeks ago, I bought the Audible Daily Deal of True Grit soley because I saw that she is the narrator.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Also re time frame, earlier Henry is updated about men having recently walked on the moon but when Richard rings the airline company he hears the lady tapping information into her co..."but not knowing a man landed on the moon? Maybe that's tongue in cheek?

I took it as the anecdote being told to illustrate how out of touch with the world and reality they were. "None of them were the least bit interested in anything that went in the world....their ignorance of....even recent history was rather astounding." If the story takes place in the early 80s (which believe it does), I think the moonwalk can still be considered relatively recent history. Although for people their age, the moonwalk was such a big deal that kids watched it on TV at school. Hard to believe that would really pass them by but again, it may be to show how insulated they were. In chapter 3 (and again in chapter 4-I'm a bit ahead like Andrew-can't help myself!) reference is made to things from the 1970s that make it sound like the '70s weren't so long in the past. I hoped that the TWA tickets would be clue, but TWA flew until 2001. Re the card in the restaurant, I had a cc in college- and was in college when I think these guys were.

Lorraine wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Also re time frame, earlier Henry is updated about men having recently walked on the moon but when Richard rings the airline company he hears the lady ta..."

I'm going to agree with Lorraine that the events take place in the early 80s. Richard saw a Fleshtones poster on someone's wall in the Commons, and their first album came out in 1980.

Andrew, I read it the same as Lorraine re: moon landing thing. Just an idea of how insulated their minds are, in a sense. They are anachronism personified. But I also get the sense that Tartt is laughing with the reader and having some fun at her (occasionally ridiculous, we have to admit!) characters' expense.

I had to look up usage of credit cards! Bonus points for the title: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli... "Between 1980 and 1990, the number of credit cards more than doubled" I get a late 80s vibe from this book, but I think it's because I've always assumed it reflected in some way Tartt's 80s college experience and that has just stuck in my mind.

Only through chapter 2. I agree with the person in Litsy who took issue on the way characters are talking about homosexuality here, yikes. And about relationships. I have to take a second sometimes and say, okay, perhaps this shows a flaw in character rather than immediately getting mad at Tartt. Still was jarring.

More mentions of coldness:
"When uptight people like that get mad, they get really mad."

"I had certainly plenty to worry about besides the coldness which apparently had infected my classmates once again, their crisp air of solidarity, the cool way their eyes seemed to look right through me. There had been an opening in their ranks, but now it was closed; I was back, it seemed, exactly where I'd begun."
(I really felt for him here. I think this is a common thing to happen when getting to know new people, and it can be entirely in your head or it can be completely true, and it's a mind game to discover whether people want you around or not without appearing needy.)

A little more about the setting/placeness:
"I was only a little depressed, now the novelty of it had worn off, at the wildly alien character of the place in which I found myself: a strange land with strange customs and peoples and unpredictable weathers....."

And there are a few bits that made me nod/groan/laugh at the absurdity that academia can be....
"[Gartrell] was a bad painter and a vicious gossip, with a vocabulary composed almost entirely of obscenities, guttural verbs, and the word 'postmodernist.'"

Also all of the extremes he goes to to AVOID the classic scenes of cozy academia as the weather gets colder - the hot cider and hot chocolate, warm fires and gatherings.

And more foreshadowing (I'm assuming)...
"The ceilings had set off a ghostly echo, giving all that desperate hilarity the quality of a memory even as I sat listening to it, memories of things I'd never known.[get ready]
Charlestons on the wings of airborne biplanes. Parties on sinking ships, the icy water bubbling around the waists of the orchestra as they sawed out a last brave chorus..."

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "The other thing I wanted to mention about Chapter 1 (so much in one chapter!) is all of what I can only guess is foreshadowing. The stuff about the Greeks and Romans and how despite their advanced ..."

YES. I was particularly struck by this from Chapter 1, page 41 (paperback version):

"Because it is dangerous to ignore the existence of the irrational. The more cultivated a person is, the more intelligent, the more repressed, then the more he needs some method of channeling the primitive impulses he's worked so hard to subdue. Otherwise those powerful old forces will mass and strengthen until they are violent enough to break free, more violent for the delay, often strong enough to sweep the will away entirely."

Obviously we all have an id, and an ego, and a superego, but knowing right off the bat that Bunny winds up dead, it was rather jarring to contemplate that we all have a murderous side just yearning to break free. "It's the smart ones you have to be careful around!"

I also read this chapter right after watching the latest episode of Manhunt: Unabomber, so...