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Dune Messiah
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Dune Messiah, Book 2 by Frank Herbert
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1. I find the overall structural believable. I like how the author showcases a number of systems. There is an over-arching monastic/aristocratic system functioning alongside a capital-controlled system (via the Guild) as well as more tribal-style groups like the Fremen and religious-control groups like the Bene Gesserit. As we see in our own world, it's very unrealistic to suppose that there will only be one power system.2. The Fremen, for me, symbolise a double-edged sword. On the one hand, they are Paul (and Jessica's) way to escape and eventually revenge / justice. But on the other, Paul is painfully aware of how easily they could be led into a religious war and the destruction that could follow.
3. Yes, due to the priming of the Bene Gesserit. This made them seem like they weren't actual outlanders because they fulfilled Fremen myths - being intrinsic to the culture but also sufficiently 'other' to make them seem more powerful and mysterious.
4. What I find interesting is the Bene Gesserit women. So much of gender politics is premised on men attempting to be certain of their progeny. And it is in this very arena that the Bene Gesserit are seeking to wield and manipulate power. Paul sometimes feel like he is walking a very deterministic path; but the powerful women feel more deliberate in their choices - even Jessica in defying the Reverend Mother.
5. I'm very interested to see the development of the Bene Gesserit. On the one hand, they're a very scientific group who are trying to control genes. But on the other, they use religion to control others but also have a quasi-mythic set of beliefs.
I also think the gender aspect will be interesting. The fact that women have been given power in the series (especially over genes) and yet their power is partial and their use of it malevolent. What does this say about women? Especially given that I found Chani, the only non-BG woman shown in detail, very insipid.
Esther wrote: "But on the other, they use religion to control others but also have a quasi-mythic set of beliefs."The B.G. basically seem like an Illuminati type of organization, pulling all or the strings from the background. I'm not convinced they are malevolent yet, as we do not know enough about their goals - they are certainly ruthless, but maybe not evil.
My memory may need refreshing, but what is the B.G. position with regard to the Spacing Guild? Maybe part of their scheming is to break apart the Guild's monopoly?
I think what I'm looking forward to most in book 2 is seeing more of Alia. She was a fascinating character.
It's interesting that Herbert continues emphasizing the characters' use of non-verbal communication. In the previous book, the Atredies (and others, I think) had code words and other ways to convey meaning on top of what was being said. And now in this first chapter, the four conspirators seem to be speaking in a language that specifically has grammar which communicates extra meaning.I'm really intrigued by Scytale the "Face Dancer". Apparently, his people had their own Kwizatz Haderach...this kind of expands on the idea of what a Kwizatz Haderach is -- I had previously assumed it was a solely Bene Gesserit thing. I'm eager to find out more about the other cultures in this universe.
I haven't started reading yet, but am looking for a timeframe. Are we going for about one week for each half of the book?
I purchased an ebook version of DM, which contains an interesting introduction by Brian Herbert. This leads me to believe that DM will be fairly dark; showing the dark side of power. Not what I would necessarily expect, but I think it's an interesting, even exciting choice. One we seldom see in the pursuit of the "next best seller."
Duncan!! I must admit that I am one of those fans who were distraught over the death of Duncan Idaho in Dune. I just couldn't believe he was actually dead. I kept waiting for him to show up with some great story about how he survived. But no! Finally, here he is! Sort of. It's just such a great twisty twist!
Yes! I was sad that I had previously skimmed a synopsis of the trilogy, because I already knew that Duncan would return. So that twist was spoiled for me :) Luckily I really don't recall much else, at least nothing that makes sense to me yet.I'm currently only at the part where Scytale is taking Duncan's appearance, I haven't seen his actual return yet.
Speaking of the old Atreides gang, I wonder when we'll find out what Gurney's been up to?
Finished! This was a really quick read. Although I think Dune can stand alone (and did for me, for the last 30 years), this one seems to act as an extension of the first novel. "Here's what's happening after the twelve year jihad, folks, in case you were curious." Actually, Brian Herbert called it a "transition" novel. For me, it was good to see what became of Paul, Chani, Alia, Irulan, and, of course, Duncan.(Gurnsey will probably show up in the next one, since he only gets a nod near the end of this. Maybe Jessica, too.)Also, to say good-bye to some beloved characters. Which works for me, since I do get attached to the fictional. :)
I am only about 35% through, but yeah this one is going fast, considering the small amount of time I have right now. And I have gone back to neglecting poor Don Quixote! :)I am now at the part where The Reverend Mother Mohiam got caught in the space liner and is now confined and talking to Irulan. Some great intrigue building up!
One thing I'm not sure I got: (view spoiler)
I was definitely a bit shocked at Mohaim's plan to (view spoiler)
It seems very strange that there's a taboo against artificial conception...although it has just occurred to me now, maybe that means only for the imperial bloodline. That would actually kind of make sense.
Also, I have started reading the appendices that I missed in the last book. There is a lot of information in there!
Holy crap. And immediately after that, (view spoiler)? That was quick! Ha...Irulan is good at her job, I guess.
Yeah. All of that business was kind of weird and did nothing to advance the plot, so I'm wondering if it sets up something between the twins in a later book. Hey, it worked for the Ptolemys. Not so much for the Hapsburgs, though.
Ooh! Now we get some information that I've literally been wondering about since the first chapter of Dune book one -- namely, that the Dune universe is explicitly connected to our universe. Paul mentions (and compares himself to, distressingly) Hitler and Genghis Khan. Very interesting.
I thought that interesting, as well. But also kind of a tease. Again, Herbert does nothing with the Earth connection in this book. Again, I'm left wondering if it will mean something in the next one.
Renee wrote: "Again, I'm left wondering if it will mean something in the next one."It has occurred to me that the Tlielaxu seem like the kind of folks who would push the boundaries of the Butlerian taboos. Maybe they will bring back the thinking machines of the old times? (I'm just speculating of course, I wouldn't want to be spoiled)
Finished! I know a lot of people didn't like this one, but I really did. It definitely is part of a series and not able to stand on ots own. But it was interesting to find out what became if everyone after Dune. Also, I understand it is more of a transition book to the events of Children of Dune. Are we continuing with the series?
I just finished this book as well. It had a lot of crazy ideas and I have to agree with Renee about the topics of Earth being introduced. Is it just to create a scale by which to compare the destruction of one man or is it going to come back to us in the third book? I must mull over this book before I post more.
Just got to the part where Paul (view spoiler) Hopefully will finish up in the next day or two. I'm definitely enjoying this one at least as much as the first book. I feel like the story has gotten more intimate, we are closer to the characters than we were before.Of course I don't have much hope for Paul's fate, but I suppose he was always kind of a tragic figure...
I like your point about intimacy, John. I agree completely.
Interesting trivia regarding the connection to our contemporary world: I was just listening to the soundtrack to David Lynch's Dune, and the intro voiceover actually states that it's the year 10,191 at the outset of Dune. Not sure if this is canon in the books, though.
That is interesting! :)
Finished! I really liked this one a lot, was considering giving it 5 stars but decided to be conservative. I might post some more final thoughts when I'm not on mobile.
Lengthy responses to Joyce's spoiler, now that I can read it safely :)(view spoiler)
Things I still don't get:
(view spoiler)
If anyone actually read this whole post, you have my thanks and admiration :) ...anyway, I think I should be ready to start Children of Dune as early as next week. Has anybody jumped into it yet? :)
Reading a bit behind at the moment - only about a third of the way through.The bit I still don't get is why the jihad was necessary. In the first book, Paul's visions make it seem inevitable and then when this book starts, it's already being going on for 12 years. Was it just to get people to accept Paul as Emperor? Why wasn't the abdication of the previous Emperor enough?
Maybe this is answered later in the book - in which case just say so, if you've finished, and I'll come back to this later. But the way the two books just treat it as inevitable seems a bit odd to me, at this stage.
Haha, Esther, that's one of the things I listed in my "Things I Still Don't Get" spoiler section. So no, I would say it was not very clear, at least not to me :)I think the Jihad was "inevitable" in the sense that Paul's vision let him see that their society's direction was unsustainable -- which makes sense, with the dependence on melange. Paul's "terrible purpose" was just that he was to be the trigger for its breakdown I think. The Jihad was just the form taken by the breakdown.
It kind of seems like the purpose of the actual invasions was for the Fremen religion to be spread, similar to how the Crusades meant to spread Christianity. (note that my knowledge of history mostly comes from movies and wikipedia)
Anyhow, that's how I interpret it. I really wish we had seen more scenes from the planets being invaded. I was really interested by the one Fremen soldier describing what it was like to see an ocean for the first time.
Is it just me, or is it weird that Paul named his son Leto? After his first son (who died) was also named Leto?This just occurred to me because I started Children of Dune this morning. It's good so far, the twins seem like interesting characters.
I noticed that too. Family name. Honoring his father big course. I remember the first time I came across that in history. It seemed like bad luck to me, to keep giving your kids the same name til one of them lived long enough to own it. But at one time, that was pretty standard, especially with family names.
I dated a guy who's grandfather named both his dad and his uncle Gerald. When are we starting Children of Dune. John... (view spoiler)
Joyce wrote: "When are we starting Children of Dune"I started reading it today -- I think Zulfiya has been super busy, so I don't want to be pushy -- I'll start the discussion thread myself tomorrow, by then I should have something to say about it :)
Sorry, guys, I am super-busy. We are house hunting because of my new job in September - commuting will be too much, and in addition I am teaching one class this summer. I did finish my re-read two days ago, but I only managed to read your posts without responding. How about next Monday for book 3?
Sounds good Z! Congrats on the new job :)
Please remember to mark your spoilers. It is especially important as there are no clear chapters, sections, part, or volumes in the book.
I propose, because the book is relatively small, to split it into two equal parts and comment on each.
Before the discussion of this book, please consider answering the following questions pertaining to book 1, Dune.
1. What can you say about the political organization of the Arrakis? Is this world believable?
2. What is the role of the Fremen in the novel?
3. Do you think the outlanders (The Leto family) succeeded in being accepted by the Fremen?
4. Do you think the male or the female characters in general are more successful and/or powerful and/or enigmatic in the novel?
5. Speculate what Book 2 will mainly focus on? What themes do you think are worth extra attention or development.
Now some questions to consider that cover only the first pages of the novel.
(view spoiler)[
1. There is a twelve-year break in the narrative. Do you find this a required plot technique, and if yes, what purpose can it serve?
2. The Bene Gesserit are true to their conspiratory and secretive nature and are plotting changes. What is Princes Irulan's position? Is she torn between the loyalty to her husband and to her alma mater?
3. Is loyalty in general a pervasive topic in the series so far?
4. Does the interview conducted in the death cell provide an interesting perspective? (hide spoiler)]