Forgotten Classics and Other Lesser Known Books (or No One Has Read this but Me!) discussion

West of the Sun by Edgar Pangborn

"The crew of the Argo, four men & two women at the end of an eleven-year flight to the unknown planet they named Lucifer--looking forward with desperate longing to the completion of their mission & their return to Earth. But when their spacecraft crashed, they faced an untamed world of huge, carnivorous birds with wolverine heads & flashing black teeth; furred, ten-foot-tall men; & red-skinned, man-eating pygmies. They warred fiercely, needing every last vestige of their skill & sanity to stay alive. Now their need was to colonize & populate the planet, but one of them was insane."

Available on Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39572

This one looks like fun :)
I'll join in.

Great! When would be good for you?

Whenever you want to get started is good :)

Ok, let's say Sunday the 28th of January, then. We'll give other folks time to see this thread and join in. :)

Awesome! Looking forward to starting :)

Oops, sorry about missing the day. Well, I guess we're it then. I hope we like it, or at least find it interesting.

First question: Have you ever read anything by Pangborn before, or even heard the name?

My answer: Yes. His name does come up in lists of 'classic' SF authors sometimes, so I know of a few titles. Many years ago I tried to read (iirc) A Mirror for Observers and got nothing out of it, don't recall what the problem was. Recently I read The Judgement of Eve and found it original & intriguing, though not quite thoroughly enjoyable.

I'm *very* curious about this, and wouldn't be surprised if I wind up reading it within just one or two days.

I haven't read any of his works, in fact, I hadn't heard of him at all (that I recall) until it was brought up in this group.

I plunged in and started reading this morning during my coffee, read, wake up time :) I only had a chance to read a few pages before the world interrupted, unfortunately :\

2nd question, just a few pages in (I fell asleep):

Four men (was apparently five) and two women? And they all love one another? A lot of old SF was concerned about what the best make-up of a small crew would be, and how many members should be on a team.

My answer: I've never seen a configuration like this before, though. It doesn't seem to be based in effective psychology, if that's the concern. Nor would two women be enough to colonize a new planet, unless there's something going on that we haven't been told yet. I'll be reading for clarification of this!

A question for later (probably not addressable until we're done):

The blurb, and Simon's review with this bit:

"The party crash lands upon a world they christen "Lucifer", and the bulk of the novel concerns the "colonists" settlement and structuring of society with native species. In this, Pangborn seems never to question the morality of it all, much as the English, Spanish and French never considered whether they had a right to settle the New World. The Prime Directive, which despite being violated every episode was still one of the more fascinating Roddenberry creations, doesn't seem to have crossed Pangborn's mind."

...has me concerned that Pangborn is some kind of bigot.

My answer: None yet, but I'll be keeping an eye on the story as it develops.

Cheryl wrote: "2nd question, just a few pages in (I fell asleep):

Four men (was apparently five) and two women? And they all love one another?"

I've just finished Part 1 now and feel that I really need to re-read the very beginning! I didn't get the impression they all loved one another... more like they got along, respected each others skills and abilities. Some formed close friendships or came to love each other but others were more like colleagues.... civil but with no great warmth of feeling. (Does that make sense?)

I know what you mean about the make-up of these deep space/long term missions be emphasized in science fiction. It makes sense to spend a lot of time figuring out how to get the best people but also people who won't kill each other!

Cheryl wrote: "Nor would two women be enough to colonize a new planet, unless there's something going on that we haven't been told yet.

Again, I'm going to re-read these opening pages, but it doesn't make sense as you say that this small a group of people were meant to colonize the planet. A more likely scenario would be a mission to gather information about the planet. Survey it. Figure out what the atmosphere was like, what flora and fauna were there. Determine if there was already intelligent life on the planet... In short, would the planet be suitable for colonization?

I believe there was something about the captain having a heart attack and accelerating the ship inadvertently which wreaked havoc on the fuel supply. There was also some damage to the ship that was discovered. This is another fuzzy bit for me.... Perhaps they had to choose between returning without doing any planet-side reconnaissance (possibly never making it back with the fuel they had?) Or, if landing successfully, there was a possibility that (with no room for error) they could complete the mission planet-side and take off and return to Earth? Of course with the ship crashing into the bottomless lake they have no ride home so they are stuck there...

Hopefully all will become clear when I re-read it :)

Yeah, I tried to reread it myself, and everything is a bit fuzzy. I think they pretty much mostly love each other in the sense that the mission had been eleven years long already, and at least some of them were teens when they started, so they grew closer.

But that doesn't much seem to be the point, anyway. I did read too much into a couple of chance remarks.

And, yeah, I'm still not clear on what the mission was. I guess that's not the point either, now that they're stuck. But I think you're right, it was probably a survey.

I'm over 1/2 way through, still marking up a lot of bits and rereading... it's certainly not just an adventure story for teen males as early SF was accused of being!

I'm not sure how well written it is, either... I don't want to think it's all my fault for having to do so much rereading to figure things out!

I'm going to reorganize my 'question' format a bit now that I have a better sense of what we're actually reading. I hope that you come up with discussion questions and post them, too!

Cheryl wrote: "And, yeah, I'm still not clear on what the mission was. I guess that's not the point either, now that they're stuck."

I think I read in a review and I agree.... this author doesn't seem interested in giving much detail about the ship or technology, but more interested in telling a story, or more accurately this story. But what is this story really? Is it about a group of people who are "shipwrecked" on a distant "shore" and how they survive? Is it about their interactions with/impact on the intelligent beings native to this place?

There are little hints of anthropology and biology coming from Doc Wright, but not nearly the emphasis on science (hard or soft) that one might like to see in science fiction.... I think the science fiction is really just the vehicle in which the story is driven and we don't really know much about the vehicle at all :laughing:

I re-read those hectic beginning pages and believe we are right in thinking that this expedition wasn't planned as a colonial one, but perhaps several of the members of the expedition had been thinking for a while they'd rather stay and try their hand at making a settlement than go back. Here's a quote of Paul's thoughts when they were voting on whether to risk going down: "Did anyone suppose the First Interstellar would just turn around and go home? We're here, aren't we...?"

I'm going to be thinking a lot as the story continues on in Part 2 about your question in message 10 about the expedition's interactions with the groups of people who had already been living on the planet and the morals/ethics aspect, the Prime Directive, etc.

Cheryl wrote.... "it's certainly not just an adventure story for teen males as early SF was accused of being!"

It sure is! :D (editing to say that this didn't come across right! eep! I agree, it certainly isn't a simple adventure story -- it's quite complex)

Thank you for helping me sort out in my mind what I was reading. I'm still so confused... and I did manage to finish!

Don't read further if you want to finish the book first....

I've read science fiction in which the science was 'social' and/or 'psychological' science often enough. I've even read stories in which the science was 'anthropological' ... (Chad Oliver, for example.

But this isn't even really that. I guess now I understand why a certain class I took in college was called "Political Science." Because one can experiment with different kinds of political systems, if one has a planet of sentient people that are in the early stages of working out their structures of power & governance.

I should have paid more attention to Chapter 4. P. 35 my edition:
"Twenty-thousand years ago, or whenever it was re reached our present physique, if there'd been anything external to teach men how to behave like grownups.... Well, we had to sweat it out--tribal wars, bigger wars, venerated fears, errors, and stupidities. But maybe here...."
And then immediately we get the foreshadowing that our band of Terrans isn't going to just Imperialistically & Paternalistically take over:
"Are we big enough?"

I guess I just didn't expect the novel to be so thoughtful. The cover looks like a crazy adventure. And I really don't think it's all that well written. But, yeah, it does explore ideas, in a 'what if' context, so yeah, it does qualify as SF.

Btw, one reviewer said that the crew of humans was all-white. I thought Dorothy was 'negro' ... much is made of her brown skin, and sometimes she speaks with a certain colloquial slant that sounds like southeastern US 'black.' I thought of her as what some call "high yaller." Unfortunately, googling for images doesn't give me exactly a good example, but maybe Pangborn was influenced by such as this: http://www.jumelterracebooks.com/2014....

Or, maybe even easier, maybe she was named after Dorothy Dandridge.

I do like the relatively respectful treatment of the women. Even though Dorothy and Ann were apparently only teens when they left Earth (why? so they'd be in the prime of life when they did reach another planet? but then why not the men?) they are valuable members of the crew.

Especially Dorothy. I love how she insists that she makes the overtures to Pakriaa, and how she goes about making that first contact. And the men are suitably impressed.

Of course I love the giants and their gentle philosophy of life. Here one of them speaks with such eloquence: " She carries a grief like a little one swelling in the womb: it must grow greater before she is delivered of it."

I'm a bit over 2/3rds of the way through the story now.

So far I'm skipping over the rest of your post with whole book spoilers (so back to that later)

Cheryl wrote: "Btw, one reviewer said that the crew of humans was all-white...."

Dot is definitely described as having brown skin. I can't remember if there was anything more specific than that. Nan/Ann is described as pale. I think also Sears was a native of TelAviv wasn't he (which doesn't necessarily mean anything). The group specifically kept out was anyone of Asian descent because there was an project underway by the Asian group/federation to also put humans in space and there seems to be some "not good feelings" towards that other group (and perhaps Asians in general) by the PTB back on Earth.

Cheryl wrote: "Especially Dorothy. I love how she insists that she makes the overtures to Pakriaa, and how she goes about making that first contact. And the men are suitably impressed."

I love this too. I like Dorothy a lot. Ann/Nan is a bit harder to like so far, but that could be because we don't know much about her yet (@2/3 or so of the way through). It was extremely brave of her, but also perceptive and smart. The pygmies (as the Earthlings dub them) are a society run by women, men are not respected at all (except the witches who are feared). For the overture to succeed it had to be a woman, it had to be Dot. She was afraid, she was precious to the group... but she faced her fear and did what was needed -- and did it quite well (if in an amusing to us way).

Do you think the pygmy society deliberately parallels human society of the past, and to some extent (in varying degrees) that of today? Women have been kept in harems, treated as second class citizens with no rights. The pygmies have reversed the situation -- like Amazons....

Cheryl wrote: "Of course I love the giants and their gentle philosophy of life. 'She carries a grief'..."

I love the gentle giants as well. I just read the battle -- they are on the retreat with just a few people left in their group (and the olifants) and are heading for the river (which makes me worry about the olifants!) -- they were invaluable in the battle, but at what cost? Even those who survived have died a bit inside because of what they did and also the breaking of the laws about life that they hold so dear.... The people in all three groups are broken and shattered, but the gentle giants....

I hope to finish soon and will read the spoiler from message 15.

Do you think the pygmy society deliberately parallels human society of the past, and to some extent (in varying degrees) that of today? Women have been kept in harems, treated as second class citizens with no rights.

Absolutely. Pangborn clearly has an interest in trying to understand women, and in trying to tell his mostly amale readership that women are people... turning the gender roles inside out is a not-subtle way of showing his readers the male dominance that they've taken for granted. Of course, it was a bit heavy-handed, and maybe a bit implausible (pregnancy & nursing would have to slow down even an Amazon a bit, wouldn't they?). But still thought-provoking.

Finally finished up the story this morning!

Cheryl wrote: " I think they pretty much mostly love each other in the sense that the mission had been eleven years long already, and at least some of them were teens when they started, so they grew closer...."

I find it interesting... the group of humans mostly cared about each other and grew closer over their journey, but it wasn't until they formed their community on the island with the gentle giants (who are easy to love) and eventually the pygmies as well as the people from Earth (Charins? is that what they are called?) that there seems to be something like universal love (not sure what to call it).

I'm not sure the pygmies understood the concepts of love and compassion before they joined the group and lived with them for a time. The giants embody those concepts.


Cheryl wrote in message 10: "The blurb, and Simon's review with this bit"

I don't think anything like the Prime Directive entered their minds either.... I'm not sure that the main group were anything like the early English, French, Spanish, American explorers/conquerors either. Spearman yes! but not the others. They made contact. They shared ideas. They developed shared laws that (in theory, at least at first) they all agreed upon so they could live together peacefully. But they didn't conquer (Spearman yes!) and didn't force their ideas on others. They found a place to form a joint community. They tried to help their pygmy friends and allies survive the war against the Queen of the World and when, inevitably they failed, they offered them a place in their community. But when many chose not to join them they let them go.... Then they continued on their journey and created their own version of Utopia.


Cheryl wrote: "...has me concerned that Pangborn is some kind of bigot."

I am thinking of the pygmies. They are completely alien to us.... their ways are so primitive, and against almost everything we believe... I might say we are repulsed and horrified by them in the beginning... our initial impression. But Pangborn wants us to be more open minded to try to understand their culture without making judgments against them... Some of the shared laws that develop affect the pygmies and their way of life the most and there is compassion for this difficult cultural change.... and it is not forced upon the pygmies.

I think with Spearman's conquering of the pygmy tribes Pangborn is paralleling of those Earth conquests of our history and it is painted in a horrible light.

Doc Wright, Sears, Paul, and Helen may not have chosen the Prime Directive path... the idea path, but they chose the best path they could. They really needed to be quite practical. They were a very small group, crash landed on a strange and hostile world with little in the way of supplies or protection. They needed to make peaceful contact with the intelligent groups on the planet and develop good relationships with them if they were going to survive.

Pangborn spends quite a bit of time discussing Earth politics/political systems.... I'm trying to wrap my mind/thoughts around all of that...

Again, I agree. I couldn't put it all in words, but you did!

I think it's a bit implausible that they're so successful at creating that Utopia you mentioned, and that Spearman is the only conqueror... but the way they did all work hard, and the setbacks and challenges they faced... it's pretty easy to suspend disbelief imo.