Espionage Aficionados discussion

I thoroughly enjoyed this book which kept me turning the pages.

Here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Just finished the third volume in Stieg Larsson's Millenium series ("...Hornets Nest") and have come to think of him as having been a pretty darn good espionage writer. Should I duck now or wait til things get really exciting? (grinning).

Lisbeth might be my all time favourite spy!

Favourite improvised weapon: the nail gun

I'm a roofer. I use a nail gun all the time.

I'll be sure to give you a wide berth, John!

The Handler by M.P. Woodward. I enjoyed it.

The first three in the series written by Larsson are good.My favourite was the first book (dragon tattoo). The next two were not as strong but still, very good. The next three by Lagercrantz?Hmmm…not so good(imho).

I see all that as a spin-off from 'La Femme Nikita'

The trend goes back much, much farther, probably all the way back to Anne Radcliffe and the roots of Gothic horror

Young girls caught in a web-of-international-intrigue: check out 'The Girl from Petrovka' starring Hal Holbrook & Goldie Hawn

authors who broke-the-mold: Thomas Harris' 'Black Sunday'; Ian St. James, 'Balfour Conspiracy'

Hi everyone,
I've just finished a non-fiction title that may be more than passing interest to some members of this group.
"The Avoidable War: the dangers of a catastrophic conflict between the US and Xi Jinping's China" by former Australian prime minister, foreign minister and career diplomat, Kevin Rudd. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5...

This work is an incredible insight into the inter-relationship between China and the US (the west more generally) and a proposed road map that seeks to avoid 'the Thucydides Trap' of a slide to war between a 'great power' and an emerging rival. The work is articulate and very engaging and may be of interest to offiianados of espionage literature who are keen to learn more of current geo-politics.

Ben wrote: "This work is... a proposed road map that seeks to avoid 'the Thucydides Trap' of a slide to war between a 'great power' and an emerging rival."

As I recall, Donald Kagan's On the Origins of War and the Preservation of Peace is an excellent examination of this issue from Athens/Sparta to Rome/Carthage, Britain/Germany, and US/USSR. I think he suggested that West/China was probably next, but there wasn't enough material for a historian like Kagan to get into any detail at the time it was published in 1996. In any case, he felt the lessons to be learned from earlier examples were timeless and generally applicable, though often sadly neglected with catastrophic consequences.

cool breeze wrote: "Ben wrote: "This work is... a proposed road map that seeks to avoid 'the Thucydides Trap' of a slide to war between a 'great power' and an emerging rival."

As I recall, Donald Kagan's [book:On the..."

Hi, cool breeze,
My apologies for the delayed response.
Thanks so much for the recommendation, it's now on my list!
kind regards,

Ben

Acheson, Bohlen, Kennan, Harriman, Lovett, and McCloy --the architects of post-war American foreign policy themselves, wrote many books.

The Wise Men: Six Friends and the World They Made

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wis...

A few weeks ago as I've also completed reading two other books since I finished Le Carre's 'A Most Wanted Man' which I think is one of his better post-cold war novels.

Interesting. Glad to hear your appraisal; and would like to hear more.

Me, I stopped caring about LeCarre a long time ago. I think with his talents, he should have turned his energy to something like short stories. Or something else with a more marketable format. The digital age has killed the novel, after all. The audience fails, rather than these superb authors. Whereas, someone like Stephen King or Dean Koontz can always count on fanship. JK Rowling did it too, though I frankly have no idea how.

Feliks wrote: "Interesting. Glad to hear your appraisal; and would like to hear more.

Me, I stopped caring about LeCarre a long time ago. I think with his talents, he should have turned his energy to something l..."

Dear Feliks,
My apologies its been such a long time getting back to you. Busy with work, family and the usual. I first read Le Carre when I was a teenager. I put the book down because it was too difficult to follow but decades later I returned to the book I put down and it kindled a passion for his writing which in short, I think is beautiful.

Perhaps it is the archivist in me, but when I read Le Carre's works, its reading and examining a time capsule - revisiting an interesting time and places in our shared history and the attitudes and concerns of the time - and none more so than the series of novels within the George Smiley series.
His characters are usually complex, flawed - some deeply so. George Smiley a case in point. Smiley is the hero who uncovered that Bill Haydon was the mole in the heart of the Circus. But George was initially blinded by the fact that he was cuckolded by the affair his wife was having with Bill. Some are morally ambiguous or have motives that are opaque. Somewhat just like people are like in real life.
But I guess the thing I love more than any other element in his craft are the insights into the human condition as expressed or experienced by his characters.
Thanks Feliks for responding to my initial post and I hope this reply gives you some context and answers you were seeking.
kind regards,
Ben

Well said, Ben. If you follow my reviews of each of the Smiley books (they are available) you'll see I agree with you. By happenstance, LeCarre wound up writing espionage, but he was a gifted novelist by any measure. He would have succeeded in any genre. The man was simply an educated, thoughtful, spirited, sensitive, and dedicated author.

Britain today is not what it once was in terms of literature. For centuries, it led the hemisphere in letters and ideas.

But I continually state that LeCarre is my favorite UK post-WWII author, bar none. Better than Burgess, Shute, Peake, better than anyone.

There's no higher praise I can give.

How now for the topic he romped in? I've affirmed this before, and re-state it for you, here: espionage never ceases. Russians, Germans, Chinese --these shifty-eyed governments will never be worth trusting. They will always bear watching. They in turn, monitor us.

Spying was once entertainment fiction. In the 1600s and 1700s it was a game of politicians and royals. Today it is second-nature; we are all spies and we are all suspicious. Orwell's vision has rung true.

I'd recommend John Lawton's books. The Joe Holderness (nicknamed Wilderness) spy novels set in the Cold War, and the Inspector Troy books, set during WW2. Although the latter are crime novels, they eventually link up with spying or at least government intrigue. Wilderness has much in common with Deighton's Samson in that he's a social class outsider in the spy ranks--a former East End thief who gets recruited because of a gift for languages. I wouldn't compare Lawton to Le Carre or Deighton--that might elicit outrage (smile), but these are literate, deftly written books that drew me in for reasons similar to those that make the Smiley and Samson books so rewarding. My two cents, anyway. Cheers

Good recommendation. Sounds a little bit like real-life Eddie Chapman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_C...

Chapman's exploits were published and made into the Plummer/Brynner film 'Triple Cross'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_...
Directed by Terence Young, he of EON/James Bond fame.

Hans wrote: "I'd recommend John Lawton's books. The Joe Holderness (nicknamed Wilderness) spy novels set in the Cold War, and the Inspector Troy books, set during WW2. Although the latter are crime novels, they..."

Thank you, Hans. I'll take those recommendations on board.

Thank you Hans and Feliks for your responses!
Since completing Le Carre's 'A most wanted man', I've gone on and read Le Carre's 'Absolute Friends' Absolute Friends is, again, excellent.
Absolute Friends is set over a fifty year period from partition (India) in 1947 to post-9/11 Europe. This is the time frame where two life-long friends Ted Mundy and Sasha, meet, get involved in espionage (and counter-espionage), lose contact and get back involved in a far more nefarious operation. It is a warning about the corporatisation of intelligence.
As always, beautifully written.

Makes me want to read Absolute Friends again, Ben! Thanks.

Hans wrote: "Makes me want to read Absolute Friends again, Ben! Thanks."
You're welcome!

Felix and Ben, you've led me to a major realisation. I may not be interested in espionage so much as in Le Carre's writing. One reason that I like George Smiley as I do is that he wouldn't know which end of a pistol to grab onto. An ex Viet Nam era US Marine, I abhor violence and don't enjoy running into in my reading.

There's plenty of admiration for LeCarre on this little group of readers. For that matter --if non-violence is your preference --I'm sure we could suggest many more examples. The Quiller series for example (Quilller doesn't carry a weapon); or even, 'The Man from Greek and Roman'. Many more.

George Smiley however --as a matter of record --was 'Control' of a WWII British spy network in Germany when the Nazis were in power. He is no slouch. Any spy ring needs such men to lead them. Skilled organizers, living under cover.

You recall that Smiley is a scholar of Teutonic literature at Cambridge and had much love for German poetry. That's the connexion.

Whether or not he ever used a pistol during the war, is (I don't think) ever stated by LeCarre, but Smiley has nerve. He has good nerve.

Time to harken back here, to his primary belief in life: George Smiley feels that Britons should always do their best to make a difference whenever they can. To "give something back". To serve; to pay one's dues as other Britons have before. Smiley reckons it, a privilege.

You've done this in your own life, US veteran. I salute you.

John wrote: "Felix and Ben, you've led me to a major realisation. I may not be interested in espionage so much as in Le Carre's writing. One reason that I like George Smiley as I do is that he wouldn't know whi..."
For me, Smiley is such an unlikely hero - the complete opposite of James Bond - multi-dimensional and deeply flawed. But what Smiley lacks in machismo qualities that is normally associated with a spymaster, he has a superior intellect.

Thank you gents. Your words are all so well crafted yourselves. Many thanks for your encouragement and support. I return the salute Feliks.

One lesson I learned in my days in uniform that applies here directly is "watch out for the quiet ones"!

And yes the admiration for JLC does run deep here in the group. And it's ungratuitous and genuine which is not always easy to pull off no matter how hard one tries.

Just one last comment and then I'll "sit down". I loved your comment, Felicks, about shifty eyed governments.

That was a bold move by JLC for the tumultuous year 1968.

Oooooops, referring to his "A Small Town in Germany and the shifty eyedness of allies.

Especially of one that not so long before had been brought to its knees

My editing is slipping so I shall now take a seat!

"A Small Town in Germany" is an interesting, moody little book. Not a lot of action but heaps of atmosphere. It's annoying though in that it falls 'outside' the Smiley universe (as far as I know).

As I recall there's no George. Moody is a great word for it! Low trust factor, loyalty near meaningless, nothing left to be done other than riot or get high.

Oooops again, rambled a bit past a focus on the book.

1968, RFK murdered, MLK murdered, Nixon elected, thousands of poor boys sent off overseas to their deaths and not just from the USA, many more thousands of Southeast Asians shot dead, blown apart, maimed, poisoned, starved, "a field day for the heat", and I suppose also for spying. I think JLC saw and captured a microcosm of all this in Bad Godesberg. Ironically I think the whole world was actually bored at the time. This book to be honest was for me anyway a bit boring. So JLC actually got that right too. Intentionally? Dunno. Thanks for listening .

Tough year, '68. A killer of hope.

Regarding atmosphere v action, Deighton's Samson novels feature much of the former, as well as sharply observed relationships with varieties of betrayal. But when the action arrives, Deighton is all in, for sure.

Hans what would you recommend as a first Deighton read? I believe Feliks may have already weighed in on this question. Please forgive, Feliks if I'm overlooking.

Actually we don't often discuss "recommended reading order" around here except in the case of John LeCarre.

I flip my lid if ever someone should happen to mention that they are, 'selecting titles at random' from the Karla saga. George Smiley-based works must be read in chronological order.

Regarding Deighton, well it doesn't matter quite so much; but I personally feel it's best to begin with "The Ipcress File". The quintessential Deighton classic which kickstarted his whole twist on the genre.

Thanks Feliks

I thought the whole Samson saga (three trilogies) was a cut above the IPCRESS FILE, so I would start with BERLIN GAME, the first Samson book. I read The IF after finishing the nine books, and it paled in comparison (for me--a matter of taste). By the way, I can't think of another author besides Deighton for whom I'd read a triple trilogy. But the books and Samson and the rest of the cast remained interesting.

Ipcress File is also part of a quartet ('Funeral in Berlin', 'The Billion Dollar Brain', 'Horse Under Water') and possibly even 'Spy Story' and 1-2 more. His protagonist often goes "unnamed."

I dunno. In a way it's off-putting. Deighton just has too many titles. Only a completist can adore that much copy.

Thanks gents, that all helps quite a lot. Feliks, hold on to your lid, but I did read the Karla books out of order, and now that you mention it I wish I hadn't.

Deighton is obviously a giant.

I can't think of much (any?) American espionage fiction that approaches the quality of Deighton and LeCarre.

Charles McCarry; Richard Condon; Robert Littell; Ross Thomas; Donald Hamilton; Norman Mailer; John Barth; William Goldman; John D. MacDonald ...arguably, even Thomas Pynchon. Our group's bookshelves make a persuasive testament.

I've read only MacDonald's Travis McGee books-- fine writer. Did he write spy books? McCarry is very good, but the last one I read was so reactionary it felt like a getting-even-for-Nixon book. Tried Littell. Must try Condon. Thank you.