Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Bleak House
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Resources for Bleak House
It seems appropriate to open with a link to a page that shows the cover used for the monthly parts of Bleak House:http://www.victorianweb.org/victorian...
At this point, I am not going to place the illustration or its notations in the main line of discussion, but it is here as a resource for anyone who would like to incorporate it. Just do observe the conventions of citation requested on the page.
Does anyone know if this same illustration was used for the cover each month? I have not seen/found the answer to that question yet, although the implication here seems to be that it was.
In the paperback Bantam House edition of 'Bleak House' which I own...
...I very much value the prefatory material in the opening of the book. It is taken from Vladimir Nabokov's lectures in English Literature at Cornell University. I believe that yes, it may contain spoilers.
It is available here from Goodreads (along with his analysis of 'Ulysses' and 'Mansfield Park').
Lectures on Literature. And of course on Amazon, etc.
It may also be found on-line for free; I am not sure that some diligent 'netizen couldn't ferret it out somewhere using the right keywords.
I won't say it is the most cogent review I have ever read (I'm not a fan of Nabokov) but his enthusiasm for the book and the elements he chooses to observe do stick with one and add a spice to one's consuming of the book itself. He definitely whets one's appetite.
If you look up Project Boz on the web you will find a digital copy of each monthly part as originally published -- and yes, the cover is the same for all of them (apparently -- I didn't actually look at all 20).http://dickens.wpi.edu/collection.html
You have to be a little persistent. The active links are not all obvious, and the final link to the texts is a little square dot in the upper left.
In my library I find eight books on Dickens's illustrators, and they all look interesting. I won't read a one of them, of course. The illustrators include Sidney Paget (! -- but I didn't take it any further).
For those of you who are having trouble with keeping all the characters straight but want to avoid spoilers here are two lists that are very basic:http://www.ubloop.com/library/dickens...
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/...
Tiffany wrote: "For those of you who are having trouble with keeping all the characters straight but want to avoid spoilers here are two lists that are very basic:"Thanks for those.
The seniorlearn one is the "safer" list; I don't see anything in there that could remotely be considered even a minor spoiler, and it is nicely grouped by related characters.
The ubloop one in the top paragraphs does contain a few spoilers, but they are relatively minor, not major ones. But to avoid them, scroll straight down to the character list. The character list does contain a few meaningful facts about the characters in describing them, so for purity might be skipped, but again, nothing I see that is central to the book or its mysteries.
But they are indeed useful for those who need to . Thanks!
A good source for the original illustrations:http://www.victorianweb.org/victorian...
ALERT -- descriptive text may have spoilers. Ignore when/if accessing illustrations.
I believe the first six are links for illustrations related to the parts we have read and can appropriately be opened if you have read this first week's selection. No illustrations themselves appear when you open the link above.
I leave the "Related Material" at the bottom to your discretion -- I haven't been through it all. The first one is in Msg 2 above. The second does open into a number of illustrations which I have not yet linked to text. At least the third one there does relate to the story as a whole.
I probably will not be posting for a few days and don't want to disturb the vivacious discussion with illustrations at this point. But, if they fit with the conversation (or you simply want to include), do feel free to add them. Use "(some html is ok)" in upper right corner for directions on how to add if a new process to you. I find I don't always have to include the dimensions -- the system will do the sizing. But you may have to experiment if something doesn't come out the way you would like. The most likely problem is that a " is in the wrong place, so look again if need be.
Some of these sites may have better reproductions than the Victorian web site above, but may show unwanted illustrations upon opening, so for now I'll use spoiler to indicate heads up and caution. However, opening the spoiler will not directly reveal any illustration.Comment from the first entry: "Hablot Browne (Phiz) provided all 40 illustrations, etched on steel, for Bleak House published in monthly parts Mar 1852 - Sep 1853."
Do consider the techniques Phiz used to correlate the illustrations with the story. See below plus within sites.
(view spoiler)
From second entry within spoiler:
Background:
"Dickens worked in close collaboration with his illustrators, supplying them with an overall summary of the work at the outset for the cover illustration which was printed on heavy colored stock, usually green, which served as a wrapper for each of the monthly parts. Dickens briefed the illustrator on plans for each month's installment so that work on the two illustrations could begin before he wrote them.
"This close working relationship with his illustrators is important to readers of Dickens today. The illustrations give us a glimpse of the characters as Dickens described them to the illustrator and approved when the drawing was finished. Film makers still use the illustrations as a basis for characterization, costume, and set design in the dramatization of Dickens' works.
"When Robert Seymour committed suicide after the second installment of Pickwick the author and his publishers needed a new illustrator. Artists such as John Leech, William Makepeace Thackeray, and Robert W. Buss were considered but the man selected was Hablot Knight Browne who had done some work for Chapman and Hall earlier and had worked with Dickens on a recent pamphlet.
"Browne and Dickens developed an excellent working relationship and Browne took the nickname Phiz to complement Dickens' Boz. Browne would go on to illustrate Dickens' work for 23 years, ten of Dicken's novels were illustrated by Phiz. Browne's comic/satiric style of illustration did not fit well with Dickens' later, more serious, novels and after the somewhat disappointing illustrations for A Tale of Two Cities, he never worked for Dickens again.
Phiz and Emblematic Detail
"In the background of many of the Phiz illustrations of Dickens' novels the illustrator introduces details that help to interpret what is happening in the story. Some of these emblematic details are rather obvious and some are more subtle. Michael Steig, in his book Dickens and Phiz, argues effectively that, although Dickens gave detailed instructions as to the content of the illustrations, many of the emblematic details in the illustrations were added by Phiz on his own."
I find it interesting how closely Dickens worked with his illustrators. Most authors, I think, don't get the chance to; in many cases the illustrator works after the manuscript is pretty much finished.
I haven't started Bleak House yet, but I'm really enjoying Claire Tomalin's biography of Dickens. It provides a lot of background detail that ties in really well with Dickens' novels.
A case destined to become a modern day Jarndyce v. Jarndyce?http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/nyr...
For fun: Dickens home (Bleak House?) for sale in 2009:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/en...
Additional images:
http://www.itraveluk.co.uk/photos/dat...
http://macadder.net/walking/thanet_co...
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/medi...
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3565/36...
Story of fire damage in 2006:
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news...
For sale (again?) in 2011:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011...
http://www.thanet-ghostwatch.co.uk/hi...
States not at all the Bleak House of the book and much changed from the days Dickens used it (1836 to 1850's).
Laurele wrote: "Photos of the serialized "Bleak House."https://www.library.uq.edu.au/fryer/t..."
Neat piece, Laurel. This caught my attention:
"Volumes were generally priced at five or six shillings each, so a complete novel would cost between 15 and 18 shillings, at a time when a teacher, for example, earned a weekly wage of around 17 shillings."
And:
"Figures show that the sales of Bleak House alone would eventually make Dickens over £11 000. Part of this can be attributed to the sale of advertising, but it was also due to advancements in the printing process, which drove production costs down."
I don't have a sense of the value of £11 000, however. Certainly a lot more than a teacher's wage.
I've been reading through G.K. Chesterton's biography of Dickens after I finish the weekly Bleak House reading. If you enjoy historical context then you'll find this book useful.
Jeremy wrote: "I've been reading through G.K. Chesterton's biography of Dickens after I finish the weekly Bleak House reading. If you enjoy historical context then you'll find this book useful."Jeremy, I read that years ago and reread his notes on "Bleak House" last week. Would more biographies were like Chesterton's.
Some of you may enjoy following along the read here with the recent discussion of Bleak House recorded in this folder -- perhaps even sharing here an idea brought to the table by this group? (Did we catch the names Gloss and Sheen for merchants/sales people? See Hedi @25 of Chap 1-5 for more and for list of allusions to fairy/folk tales. Elsewhere there is a link on London fog and a link apparently to a discussion in parallel with the BBC film.)https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
Lily, I tried the link and it doesn't work??
Are you using a phone to access the link, Genni? I couldn't get the link to work on my phone, but it works fine from the full site.
Genni wrote: "Lily, I tried the link and it doesn't work??"https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
Try again? It is a public group. It worked for me, but I am a member. But I don't think that should make a difference.
Here is the group home page:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Let me know, Genni. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
This should be the link for Chapters 1-5.
Lily wrote: "Genni wrote: "Lily, I tried the link and it doesn't work??"https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
Try again? It is a public group. It worked for me, but I am a member. But I don't..."
It worked for me, but I am a member as well.
@ David and lilyYes, I was trying to access it from my phone on the go. I will have to try again later from the full site. Thanks for the tip.
Thx for the help and insight -- David, Paula, Genni...
Discovered this book while looking for Peake's Progress: Selected Writings and Drawings.Sketches From Bleak House
A couple can be found here http://www.mervynpeake.org/illustrato...
like this picture of Jo, the crossing sweeper...
Todd wrote: "Discovered this book while looking for Peake's Progress: Selected Writings and Drawings.Sketches From Bleak House
A couple can be found here http://www.mervynpeake.org/illustrato......"
NEAT FIND! Thank you for sharing, Todd!
"In the introduction to the 1983 Methuen edition of Bleak House Edward Blishen writes ’Peake establishes himself as one of the foremost of Dicken’s illustrators with Gothic exaggeration in which the comic is always the close companion of the sinister, as natural to Peake as it was to Dickens: but he joins to it a prodigious depth of feeling and power to suggest the essence of a character in the very line he employs’. Begun in 1945 following an invitation to illustrate the novel the published drawings were not seen however until 1983."
(Do go look at the link! The small images will enlarge. Is anyone here reading this edition (were they ever with the text) or perhaps own it (I see the book of sketches is basically a collector's item)?)
Lily wrote: "Todd wrote: "Discovered this book while looking for Peake's Progress: Selected Writings and Drawings.Sketches From Bleak House
A couple can be found here http://www...."
Lily, I got the book from the library. Unfortunately this was never a Bleak House edition.
"Owing to the paper and printing difficulties of immediate post-war 1946, the project was abandoned, and no further illustrations other than those which appear in this book were made." - from the overleaf
And also from the book, "...Peake's first - and final- choice of characters to work on presents an instant handicap; he started largely on the periphery of the novel. So there is no Mr. Tulkinghorn; no Krook; no Mrs. Jellby. There is no Jarndyce; and no Ester Summerson. It is not quite Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark, but is not far removed from it." - p.6
Todd wrote: "And also from the book, "...Peake's first - and final- choice of characters to work on presents an instant handicap; he started largely on the periphery of the novel...."Sad! Although I understand the strategy of working up to the major characters.
Take a look at the Amazon listing, if you haven't already, and see the apparent value of this book today. You may want to alert your head librarian -- if a reasonable being -- when you return it -- I once did so for a copy of Asimov's commentary on Paradise Lost. The library had little idea of its market value. I hope it stayed available, but protected -- haven't checked.
After leaving a group discussing Donna Tartt's
The Goldfinch
this morning, I was pondering how little we had discussed the little piece of art that lent the book its name. Somewhere in those musings, the similarities between that little chained finch on its perch and Miss Flyte's caged birds struck me. http://www.zazzle.es/el_goldfinch_put...
I haven't proofed this, but I needed/wanted a list of chapters with titles to go with listening to the CDs, so I made this list from my Kindle copy. It is here if of use to anyone else.(view spoiler)
The use of chapters with titles belonged to a specific era of novels. Anyone here who can comment?
Lily wrote: "The use of chapters with titles belonged to a specific era of novels. Anyone here who can comment? "Hmmm. They may have been more prevalent in the 1800s than other times, but they've been used by some authors pretty much throughout the history of the novel. Cervantes used them in Don Quixote, which is one of the earliest novels written. Austen didn't, but Dickens did. Melville, Victor Hugo, and Rabelais did; Ann Radcliffe didn't, at least not in the Mysteries of Udolpho, and Sir Walter Scott generally didn't. Thomas Hardy did in some (e.g.The Return of the Native) but not in others (e.g. Tess, Jude the Obscure). Likewise Eliot did in some (e.g. The Mill on the Floss) but not in others (e.g. Middlemarch). Trollope generally did. I think they did fall out of favor somewhat in the 1900s, but they didn't totally die out.
I don't read enough modern serious literature to know how prevalent they are, but they're quite prevalent in mystery novels even today.
Lily wrote: "I haven't proofed this, but I needed/wanted a list of chapters with titles to go with listening to the CDs, so I made this list from my Kindle copy. It is here if of use to anyone else.Preface..."
I actually like chapter titles. For one thing, they make it much easier to find passages one is interested in looking back at.
Everyman wrote: "I actually like chapter titles. For one thing, they make it much easier to find passages one is interested in looking back at. "I think Dickens' titles are particularly clever; as I look back at them I know more or less what happened in each chapter but looking head, I'm unable really guess what might happen. I've read other books with chapter titles that reading the title does give major hints about what's to come.
http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot...Not directly related to BH, but a couple of quotations from Dickens are embedded in this article about technological change during the Victorian age. One of the questions that came to my mind while perusing this was:: is technological change touched upon in BH, where, and how? I know this morning, as I listened to Tulkinghorn search for Nemo, I thought again, as I had during earlier comments about copies, about the impact of Xerox and the copier versus scribes and employment opportunities. (Who remembers mimeograph or carbon paper and over what span of time were they used -- product life cycles, now found in specialty niches)?
Lily wrote: "Who remembers mimeograph or carbon paper"Yes and yes. Back in the day I used both extensively, along with several generations of manual typewriters.
And ditto machines, where you typed on a set of paper that put a purple ink-like substance on the back of your sheet which you then ran through a machine with a liquid that gradually dissolved the purple stuff and deposited it on paper. It was the major mechanism for teachers to distribute test papers and the like for most of my years of teaching.
It was best for short runs; for longer runs (like the newsletters of the social action committees I spent a lots of time working on when I was an under-30s Churchillian) the mimeograph was the machine of choice.
Ah, ancient memories. Kids today have NO idea.
Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "Who remembers mimeograph or carbon paper"Yes and yes. Back in the day I used both extensively, along with several generations of manual typewriters.
And ditto machines, where you ..."
You're right! Kids have no idea. I used to love the smell of copies. I would hold the sheet up to my nose and just...sniff. Ahhhh, the earliest way to get high!
Gah! Even just glancing at the google hit page for original instalments brings up spoilers. :(
Theresa wrote: "Gah! Even just glancing at the google hit page for original installments brings up spoilers. :("The world will encourage the joys of re-reading if one is going to deal with classics. [g] That comes from one who was taught by readers like Eman and Laurel to enjoy re-reading -- something I always had avoided doing so as to move on to more. The good ones really can seldom be savored in a single read -- at least not as deeply as is possible. And, yes, if one does want that "virgin" read, one must be protective!
Another resource on illustrators of Dickens' works:
Dickens and His Illustrators
by Frederic George Kitton"An etcher of considerable skill, Frederic G. Kitton (1856-1904) devoted his life to illustrating and writing about the works of Charles Dickens. Here, he presents detailed studies of the illustrators who worked with Dickens and examines the relationships between author and artists, drawing on correspondence between them and reproducing preparatory sketches. Kitton's list of 16 illustrators includes "Phiz," George Cruikshank, Robert Seymour, George Cattermole and Sir John Tenniel. This is the most comprehensive review of the relationship of Dickens and his illustrators, accompanied by many illustrations, and is a scholarly document, helpful in understanding Dickens and his work. The work contains twenty-two portraits and facsimiles of seventy original drawings." [Bold added.]
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASI...
From a reader review: "Although the text is interesting, the illustrations, the reason I
bought the book----are poor {quality reproductions}."
P.S. The non-circulating copy in the special collection at the main library in my library system has this note: "Each plate accompanied by guard sheet with descriptive letterpress." It sounds like high quality editions probably exist.
So as I completed reading Bleak House a bit early, I still want to be part of the discussion and not leave the world of Dickens quite yet. I commenced for purposes of the latter, to read "The Great Filth" by Stephen Halliday. The book discusses the Victorian era. When Queen Victoria ascended the throne in 1837, most of her subjects lived in the country and upon her death, 80% lived in towns or cities. The urbanization of the population was not accompanied by corresponding improvement in the facilities for the new residents. Prior to 1835*, the role of government of any kind in the matters of sanitation, water supply or public health was barely recognized and thereafter even when delegated the role, there was minimal if any progress due to from not wanting to spend funds on the same to lack of coordinated efforts as well as general stagnancy and inaction by those so delegated. In 1840, the Vaccination Act was passed which banned the practice of "variolation" (injecting a mild form of the disease ) but made free of charge vaccination of infants with "cowpox" (safer protective qualities first suspected by observation of milkmaids known for their beauty in part by escaping smallpox effects. )(NB: the term vaccination deriving from the Latin word, "vacca" for cow). But it was not trusted by all and many were not vaccinated (or received an ineffective vaccination) and thus small pox took a long time dying. As Voltaire inveighed, " The English are fools and madmen; fools because they give their children the smallpox to prevent their catching it: and madmen because they wantonly communicate a creation dreadful distemper to their children, merely to prevent an uncertain evil." It is a bit difficult to determine precisely when Bleak House is to have taken place, but the book provides a nice backdrop of the times in England.*Prior to the the Municipal Corporations Act of 1835, most of the affairs of local government were conducted by magistrates.
Also yesterday I started to watch the BBC series of "Bleak House" (as an antidote to completing the book a touch early)….and it is great thus far..but does differ a wee bit in a few minor ways…but generally stays true to Dickens (and many lines you of which you will be familiar). One always knows to beware in the series, as music can dramatically play in the background at certain points! ha! Some of the characters are so very well cast and some…well…as to Mr. Smallweed the elder, the actor playing him is not nearly old enough nor decrepit of small body but certainly has yellow teeth (there is no Mrs. Smallweed in this series). Esther and Ada seem well cast to me as is Mrs. Dedlock…albeit she appears far younger and still a beauty as compared to her sister (and is not similar to Esther beyond coloring)! I really like whom they cast as George, quite close to how I pictured him (albeit I pictured George a bit larger). The young woman who was cast as Jane Smallweed must be feeling a bit of a blow to her ego, but I can assure her that she in no way resembles the elderly looking stern youth as described (and envisioned in my mind) in the book (nor does she look much like Esther beyond coloring). Skimpole is portrayed well but clearly as knowing what he is up to…i.e. not quite the child he professes to be. But everyone has his or her own mental visions of these characters so it is interesting to see how it is cast! I like Mr. Snagsby but no Mrs.. Again, yes, the fellow who plays Guppy..very well cast/well done (and his mother is just as I pictured her)! Mr. Turvedrop the senior..what a hoot! (how he is portrayed…with such..um….deportment! A bit over the top perhaps. ha!) Interesting to see the fashions and hair of the time as portrayed by BCC. Certainly a lot of sideburns, many most generous of size. Best not say more in case by doing so, I open the floodgates to chaos, disorder and anarchy! (While the BCC series may not be a source per se…was not sure where else to place this post).
A list of the actors who have played Sir Leicester Dedlock in a number of major performances:http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0053628/
Sorry I did not list all the actors/actresses names in above post. I am only familiar with Carey Mulligan (Ada) but surely others are more familiar with these actors and actresses…who for the most part did a splendid job in their portrayals! I thought Timothy West (Thanks, Lily) was cast well (but perhaps older than I had imagined), but I can't compare him to the others who have portrayed Sir Liecester Dedlock, Baronet (lol..sounding like Bucket). Fear I watched the complete series within three days..oh, my (15 episodes, each about 53 minutes long). I do recommend this series (BBC/ 2005) to others upon completing this book, if they are still interested! I quite enjoyed!
Sue wrote: "Sorry I did not list all the actors/actresses names in above post. I am only familiar with Carey Mulligan (Ada) but surely others are more familiar with these actors and actresses…who for the most..."Sue -- I only put up the list for Sir Leicester because I was checking that he indeed was considerably older than Lady Dedlock, as I had recalled. In the process, I came across some very varied reactions to these two characters. For those of you who know actors and actresses far better than I, the imdb list looked like it might be of interest. I usually look at IMDb for actors/actresses in a particular performance -- off-hand, I don't recall observing an entry for the same character in multiple performances.
P.S. I watched part of the BBC series (2005, probably) several years ago, but gave it up because I got lost on the story and the language. I'm looking forward to giving it another try after reading BH.
Lily, you said when you watched the BBC (2005 likely) series of Bleak House awhile back, you gave up on it as lost on the story and language. I found this quite interesting. In particular because I was thinking about recommending it to certain others but wondered if my having read the book first was an advantage and whether I would have followed (and enjoyed) it as well had I not read the book. So your comment is quite relevant to my current ponderings! 8^) Of course, I do recommend it to all in this group!
Sue wrote: "Lily, you said when you watched the BBC (2005 likely) series of Bleak House awhile back, you gave up on it as lost on the story and language. I found this quite interesting. In particular because I..."I also tried watching the BBC series (2005) around 2 years ago, but gave up because I didn't understand what was going on and couldn't get past the second episode. I even tried rewatching the first episode a couple of times. But now that I have just finished reading Bleak House, I am watching the series (about 2/3 of the way through) and I love it. For me, reading the book first was a must.
And the actor who plays Mr. Guppy does such a great job, his scenes are my favorite to watch.
Yes, the fellow who plays Guppy is perfect for the role!!! Now I can't imagine anyone else as Guppy! Yes, I wondered about recommending this movie as I know how many fast paced story lines there are but having read it first, it made total sense to me and was all the more fun for knowing even more than the movie portrayed..but likely an altogether experience for someone who has not read the book first…could see how it could be puzzling to put all the many fast moving pieces together! Perfect for someone who has read it though! (the BBC series leaves out some (more minor) characters and deletes or even alters certain minor subparts/ elements..but essentially tries to stay true to the story.. editing apparently was required to some extent to tell the convoluted but most interesting story!).
Yes, I watched the first segment of the 2005 BBC series tonight. I'm not positive it is what I tried to watch before, in fact, I don't think it is, but that will take some more checking. Anyway, I doubt I would have liked this without knowing the story. As you say Sue, there were so many scene cuts and fast moving pieces. But I am enjoying it now.
I can't remember where the discussion of Jarndyce and the east wind came up so I'm posting this here. I was reading The House of the Seven Gables and came across this passage, "As for Hepzibah, she seemed not merely possessed with the east wind, but to be, in her very person, only another phase of this gray and sullen spell of weather; the East-Wind itself, grim and disconsolate..." It seems "east wind" was understood on both sides of the Atlantic as a symbol for trouble or difficulty. I know George MacDonald uses the north wind as a symbol for death in At The Back of the North Wind (an amazing book). Just something I found interesting and thought I'd share.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens' Bleak House (other topics)Charles Dickens' Bleak House (other topics)
Dickens and His Illustrators (other topics)
The Goldfinch (other topics)
Peake's Progress: Selected Writings and Drawings (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
F.G. Kitton (other topics)Donna Tartt (other topics)
CAUTION: many of these resources will contain spoilers, perhaps major spoilers. Access them at your own risk, particularly if you do so early in the discussion.
For those posting resources, please include a brief comment on what the resource contains and whether it contains spoilers. For sites that contain major spoilers, it may be preferable not to post them until we get fairly deep into the discussion.