Literally Leander discussion

The book for March 2018 was Turtles All the Way Down by John Green. Please be aware that this thread will have spoilers for this novel.

Please feel free to post your thoughts, opinions, and observations of this book on this thread. We have also shared discussion questions for this book. You can answer all of them or only some of them. You can even post questions of your own!

The below questions were chosen from Penguin Books. (Click here to see these questions and more via their website.)

1. What does Aza mean when she says, "You think you're the painter, but you're the canvas"? How does this statement influence your perception of this story? Do you ever feel a similar way?

2. How does the motto "Break Hearts Not Promises" relate not only to Daisy and Aza, but to all the characters in the novel?

3. Davis and Aza both feel like their names define them. Think about your name - what do you think it says about you?

4. When explaining her childhood friendship with Davis, Aza says, "I mean, anyone can look at you. It's quite rare to find someone who sees the same world you see." Is there a person in your life who you think sees the world like you?

5. When Aza says, "Whether it hurts is kind of irrelevant," Davis declares it to be a pretty good life motto. How does this come into play throughout the novel? Do you agree or disagree with the statement?

6. Compare and contrast the idea of "I think therefore I am," and "I am not my thoughts." Can these two statements coexist? Why or why not?

7. Russell Pickett plans to leave his entire fortune and estate to his pet tuatara. Why does he prioritize his pet over his kids? What significance does the tuatara play in the novel?

8. What does Davis mean when he says, "Being vulnerable is asking to get used," when he's talking about the reward money for his father? Do you agree? Why or why not?

9. Davis gives a $100,000 reward to Aza and Daisy for not giving the photo of his father to the police. If you were in Aza and Daisy's position, would you accept the money? Why or why not?

10. Discuss the dynamic of Daisy and Aza's friendship. Is it on even ground? How do they support each other?

11. Discuss the nature of Aza and Davis's relationship. Did you expect a real romance to develop? Why or why not? How do you feel about how it progressed?

12. Based on the anecdote Daisy shares about the phrase "turtles all the way down," what does the title of this book mean to you?

Okay, so John Green isn't really one of my favorite authors. I tend to shy away from the overly philosophical and introspective types of books. I like action and adventure and deep romance, and Green really isn't the type of writer to put all of his eggs in those baskets.

This book is only the second of his that I've read, and, as I expected, it was very philosophical and relied a lot on deep thought and looking into other perspectives, so despite the fact that I'm not quite a fan of this style, I'll do my best to delve into what I thought was the meaning of the book.

1. What does Aza mean when she says, "You think you're the painter, but you're the canvas"? How does this statement influence your perception of this story? Do you ever feel a similar way?
To me, it was pretty obvious that Aza was saying that people think they're in control of their lives, as if they are the painter who decides what scene they'll paint. But she believes that people are just canvases, doomed to a certain fate, unable to escape what has been planned out for them, followers of someone else, an actual artist that they can't commune with. This statement is said early on in the story, and I think it might be meant to show that Aza truly believes, deep down, that she is trapped in a making of someone else. She doesn't feel as though she is able to make her own decisions, which becomes more and more obvious throughout the book, when she debates what the "self" truly is.

2. How does the motto "Break Hearts Not Promises" relate not only to Daisy and Aza, but to all the characters in the novel?
Personally, I don't really see this as a motto for the characters of this book. The only thing that I can remotely think of is the fact that I can't specifically remember the characters making any promises; they don't promise to find Davis's dad, they don't promise to keep things a secret, they don't promise that everything will be alright or that things will get better. They do, however, break a few hearts along the way.

3. Davis and Aza both feel like their names define them. Think about your name - what do you think it says about you?
Davis has his father's name, and it seemed as though he was worried that he would be like his father one day, distant and cold and a little on the crazy side. Aza's name, according to her parents, encompasses the first letter of the alphabet, the last, and back again so that she can feel as though she can accomplish anything - essentially, the world is her oyster. I think that names can be a weird thing. It's one of the things that we're given and don't usually pick for ourselves, something that gives insight in to what our parents like, or were thinking, or even what they hoped for us. My name isn't unusual but isn't common, and there's so many different variations of it. I like to think that in the grand scheme of things, it means that I have many different paths I could take.

4. When explaining her childhood friendship with Davis, Aza says, "I mean, anyone can look at you. It's quite rare to find someone who sees the same world you see." Is there a person in your life who you think sees the world like you?
There is no one that comes to mind immediately for me. I think it's true that it's hard to find someone who sees the world the same way you see it. I think we search for those people, surround ourselves with people that think like us. You know what they say, birds of a feather flock together.

5. When Aza says, "Whether it hurts is kind of irrelevant," Davis declares it to be a pretty good life motto. How does this come into play throughout the novel? Do you agree or disagree with the statement?
I think in context to the book, it sort of reflects Aza's inner turmoil with her anxiety. Despite the fact that it's not a physical disability, it still hurts her emotionally, and eventually it causes her to do things that really do hurt her physically. But Aza is trying desperately to not let her anxiety hold her down. She's not letting her pain stop her from her goals, and that's truly admirable. So to an extent, I agree with the statement - growing pains are still a pain.

6. Compare and contrast the idea of "I think therefore I am," and "I am not my thoughts." Can these two statements coexist? Why or why not?
Philosophy is not my strong suit, but I do remember talking about Descartes and his famous line: "I think, therefore I am" in school. He was a rationalist philosopher who was trying to prove that the mind and body were separate entities, and said that if the mind could think and perceive, then it had to be real. But Descartes was a dualist; he believed the mind and body could exist separate from each other. So in his viewpoint, you can exist because you can think, but you are not entirely made up of only your thoughts/your mind, but rather your body is an extension of yourself. Therefore, you exist in more ways than just your thoughts, making the two above statements able to coexist.

On a personal level, I think it makes sense - the seat of your self exists in your mind, and your body is the vehicle in which your self lives. Regardless of Descartes's beliefs on dualism, I think on a logical level, his statement makes sense: your thoughts ensure that you exist, but there are many other things in this world that make you you.

7. Russell Pickett plans to leave his entire fortune and estate to his pet tuatara. Why does he prioritize his pet over his kids? What significance does the tuatara play in the novel?
Pickett leaves his fortune to his pet tuatara, Tua, because he believes that the reptile is the key to longevity, perhaps even immortality. For the molecular genetics of the lizard to be studied, there needs to be funding. Tua isn't the only source of longevity in the novel, though, as Davis and Aza discuss the stars, and how far away they are, and how the light a faraway galaxy receives could be years old. Little things about the past, the present, and the future are woven into the story, and Pickett's obsession with Tua is only one of the more obvious ones.

8. What does Davis mean when he says, "Being vulnerable is asking to get used," when he's talking about the reward money for his father? Do you agree? Why or why not?
While we like to think the best of people, the truth is that some people are greedy, and it is easiest to prey on the weak. I think Davis is trying to say that being vulnerable makes people more willing to ignore gut feelings if they're given hope. I don't know if I necessarily agree with the statement. While I think it's possibly, I think it's also true of humanity that the majority of us have instincts to help one another. We are a group creature, after all, and a group can only exist in harmony if we can trust one another.

9. Davis gives a $100,000 reward to Aza and Daisy for not giving the photo of his father to the police. If you were in Aza and Daisy's position, would you accept the money? Why or why not?
Honestly, I think I would take the money. A small part of me would feel bad about it, of course, but if you're in Daisy's predicament, money is extremely important. And, for that matter, money is practically a requirement to do anything nowadays. To Davis, the $100,000 is practically pocket change. So yeah, I would feel like a terrible person for taking it at first, but I think as long as it's used for good things - like Aza using it for a college fund - I think it can result in good things.

10. Discuss the dynamic of Daisy and Aza's friendship. Is it on even ground? How do they support each other?
I don't really think that their relationship is on perfectly even ground. I think that Daisy and Aza both know a lot about each other, but Daisy tends to be more supportive towards Aza in regards to her anxiety than Aza is to Daisy. I don't necessarily think that they're friendship is perfect; Aza is sometimes too wrapped up in her own issues to see when Daisy is having a hard time, and Daisy dealt with her personal issues towards Aza in a way that was too public, I think. But I also think that a friendship like theirs would only grow stronger after hardships, and that's the type of friends everyone needs.

11. Discuss the nature of Aza and Davis's relationship. Did you expect a real romance to develop? Why or why not? How do you feel about how it progressed?
With this being YA, I think romance is to be expected. Or at least some semblance of romance. Personally, I didn't think that Aza and Davis would be a lasting couple, simply because Aza isn't mentally or emotionally ready for a relationship. I think it was realistic, but for me it was a little flat in terms of an actual romantic development. It certainly wasn't my favorite non-romance, that's for sure.

12. Based on the anecdote Daisy shares about the phrase "turtles all the way down," what does the title of this book mean to you?
My initial thought is that the anecdote is a little on the ridiculous side, and this book definitely has John Green's signature quirkiness. But, when I think deeper, I think the anecdote might tie into Aza's mental state. Essentially, it is never-ending. There will always be another turtle, and for Aza, there will always be another intrusive thought. One of the few things I particularly liked in the book was the representation of mental health. Aza isn't "healed" by Davis or by anyone else. She makes progress, but she and the reader knows that it will always be a battle she will have to fight, just like there will always be another turtle on the way down.

1. What does Aza mean when she says, "You think you're the painter, but you're the canvas"? How does this statement influence your perception of this story? Do you ever feel a similar way?

Aza feels like her life is a set of circumstances she does not have control of. In her statement, the painter would be the outside forces that control her life. She is the canvas that the outside forces are controlling. While not mentioned in the book, I think the paint represents the circumstances. Like a canvas is defined by the painting, Aza feels she is defined by her circumstances. Instead of taking a proactive approach to her life, as people do when they think they can change their circumstances, Aza takes a reactive approach. Because of her view, Aza later questions her sense of self. Sometimes, when situations are beyond my control, I feel like I am the result of circumstances. However, I do not feel this to the extent that Aza does.

3. Davis and Aza both feel like their names define them. Think about your name - what do you think it says about you?

My first name has a religious meaning, which I appreciate because my religious beliefs are an important aspect of my life. The spelling of my middle name was chosen to reflect my Mexican heritage. I am one-quarter Mexican and love how my middle name memorializes my family and cultural background.

4. When explaining her childhood friendship with Davis, Aza says, "I mean, anyone can look at you. It's quite rare to find someone who sees the same world you see." Is there a person in your life who you think sees the world like you?

I do not think anyone sees the world the exact same way because our perception is colored by our unique experiences. Even people who do experience the same event view it slightly differently. However, because people tend to attract like-minded people, I think my friends generally think the same way that I do.

6. Compare and contrast the idea of "I think therefore I am," and "I am not my thoughts." Can these two statements coexist? Why or why not?

I do not have any background in philosophy, but I will try to unpack these statements. I think that the first statement refers to being sentient. Both animals and humans are sentient beings, capable of thoughts and emotions. Because I can think, I exist (as a sentient being). The second statement refers to the actual content of the thoughts. We may think intrusive thoughts, but they do not define who are are as a person. Therefore, these two statements can coexist.

12. Based on the anecdote Daisy shares about the phrase "turtles all the way down," what does the title of this book mean to you?

I think the title refers to the state of Aza’s mental health, like the symbol of the spiral. The plain that the turtle is resting on can represent the thoughts that Aza tells herself. Aza will always struggle with the intrusive thoughts – with her anxiety and OCD. However, she can learn to better manage her thoughts.

Christine wrote: "While not mentioned in the book, I think the paint represents the circumstances. Like a canvas is defined by the painting, Aza feels she is defined by her circumstances...."

I didn't even think about the way that the materials would come into play. I agree with how you defined the painter and the canvas - Aza really does seem to think of herself as this blank slate, with a fate that she can't control.

Now that you've got me thinking about it, I think it's possible that the paint could be more than just her circumstances (though I totally think that's a great way to put it.) Maybe it's her anxiety in particular, you know? Especially since it seemed like there were a lot of metaphors in place for her mental state in general.

It makes me wonder if that's why Aza was so focused on finding out who her "self" was - because she thinks she has no control over who she is.

I can't tell if that makes sense or if Green has somehow forced philosophy onto me through word osmosis.