Reading the Chunksters discussion

Oh this book is becoming such a treat, I really look forward to reading each new installment. So much drama already!

Book Four:



In this book we encounter Fantine with her young daughter, and she is unable to obtain work as an unmarried mother. She comes across a family with two young girls and offers to pay them if they will take Cosette. They agree, but Fantine has no knowledge of how unscrupulous and uncaring the Thenardiers are. Cosette becomes a child slave and watches the Thenardier children live a carefree life. The Thenardiers continually ask Fantine for more money, which she scrounges up, but she doesn't realize that the funds do not go to her own child but towards the expenses of the Thenardiers.

The chain swing Fantine sees the Thenardier children playing with:

Book Five - Here we see how Père Madeleine has turned Montreal-sur-Mer around with a new way of making jewels, and his success eventually results in the prosperity of the entire town. Madeleine gives away his wealth and helps the poor, and shuns recognition, or even pleasantries from those who adore him. He declines an offer to become mayor until he is admonished that he can do more good with that role. We may have suspicions at this point, but when we learn that Madeleine has hardly any possessions except for two silver candlesticks we have a pretty strong idea of who he might be. Police inspector Javert also suspects who Madeleine might be when he lifts an enormous cart off of a man, and he knew that only a former escaped convict had that kind of strength.

Meanwhile, Fantine's life is in a phase of rapid descent. She loses her job, she can't pay for her room, furniture or child, she sells her beautiful hair and her top two front teeth and eventually becomes a prostitute with a taste for alcohol. When she attacks a man for putting snow down her back, she is dragged to jail by Javert.



Madeleine forces Javert to let Fantine go, but he is enraged. Madeleine tells Fantine he will ensure care for her and her child and she faints.

Book Six

Madeleine:



In this Book Fantine is growing increasingly ill, and Madeleine's efforts to retrieve Cosette are proving unsuccessful as the Thenardiers do not want to lose their cash cow. Meanwhile, Javert visits Madeleine and insist that he be fired because he informed the police that he suspected Madeleine was in fact Jean Valjean. When the police informed Javert that they had the 'real' Jean Valjean in their possession, Javert felt the only just resolution was that he be fired. Madeleine refused, telling Javert he was an honorable man. Madeleine acts disinterested in the story of Jean Valjean.

Javert:

Fantine at Javert's feet:

Madeleine and Javert:

It is interesting to me how the characters were portrayed in this section, some seemed ignorant, and others more evil. The Thenardiers did work for a living, but were heartless and conniving. Javert, on the other hand, may have been obsessive but seems bound by a sense of inflexible morality. The man who fired Fantine was probably just acting in accordance with what was socially acceptable at the time, so to me it is hard to find fault with his action even though it triggered Fantine's fall.

I wonder if there would have been any way for Fantine to not fall into the abject poverty she ended up in. She was improvident financially, and ignorant, and was easily taken advantage of. I suppose without someone to guide her it would have been inevitable that she would have ended up down the path she followed, even if she had not been fired. I suspect if one tragedy had not occurred, another one would have. She was taught to live on little funds because she had to, but still was easy prey.

Why does Javert read even though he hates it?

Biblical reference sighting: The name Madeleine is derived from Magdalene, well-known because of Saint Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdalene is commonly known as a symbol of the repentant sinner.

Dianne wrote: "I wonder if there would have been any way for Fantine to not fall into the abject poverty she ended up in. She was improvident financially, and ignorant, and was easily taken advantage of."

I think Hugo is railing against a society which has no safety net for someone like Fantine. She loses her parents to illness, she's completely uneducated and illiterate. Her 'sins' are to love: first the student who gets her pregnant then abandons her, then Cosette for whom she sacrifices everything. Even when she is given some dignity and ability to earn money legitimately, that is stripped from her due to her so-called 'immorality'. If one of Hugo's aims is to rouse his readers against social injustice then it works for me everytime!

I also love the way the plot clicks together so wonderfully: the scene where Valjean/Madeleine lifts the cart off the driver, thus revealing himself to Javert. Even when characters do the good and right thing, they end up condemning themselves. The system is set against people like Valjean and Fantine, Hugo seems to be saying, no matter how much they struggle. Valjean would have been materially better off if he'd left the carter to die, but the same conscience that won't let him do that effectively works against him.

One thing that confused me is why Javert is pursuing Valjean at all: he was legitimately released from prison with his yellow passport, and M. Myriel refused to denounce him for the theft of the silver. He's done nothing else wrong, has he?

Roman Clodia wrote: "One thing that confused me is why Javert is pursuing Valjean at all: he was legitimately released from prison with his yellow passport, and M. Myriel refused to denounce him for the theft of the si..."

Only a guess, but he never reported in to (handed over his passport) the authorities in the town in which he lives, owns the factory, and has become mayor. That's probably a crime.

Ah yes, because he's created a new identity for himself, burying Jean Valjean - that makes sense, thanks!

This woman's child was one of the most divine creatures you could ever hope to see, a little girl two or three years old.

The little girl is Cosette being held in Fantine's arms as she arrives at the Thénardier's.

But the narrator says . . .

Ten months had passed since 'the great practical joke.' "

The great practical joke being the men leaving the women at the restaurant, Fantine abandoned and pregnant.

Cosette is aging quickly.

Father Madeleine required goodwill of the men and pure morals of the women and honesty of everyone. He had designed the workshops in order to keep the sexes separate so the women and girls could remain virtuous. On this point, he was inflexible.

This is probably why the foreman (or whatever he is) fires Fantine. Valjean wants his workers to live morally and within the law. The foreman probably interprets this -- and given the era, why shouldn't he? -- to include one's past -- no chance of redemption.

Living when and where I do, it's easy for me to forget the cruelty of the time period. You could literally die in the gutter from neglect. Fantine is ruined by a mistake she made when young. Meanwhile, all the aristocrats and nobles are marrying for political reasons, having affair after affair, and leaving children born out of wedlock in their wake.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: " This woman's child was one of the most divine creatures you could ever hope to see, a little girl two or three years old.

The little girl is Cosette being held in Fantine's arms as she arrives at..."

I think when Fantine is abandoned she already has Cosette, she's not pregnant. Hugo is usually meticulous with details of things like time and money.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I think when Fantine is abandoned she already has Cosette, she's not pregnant. Hugo is usually meticulous with details of things like time and money..."

I posted that because I'm a bit unclear with all the flashbacks what the situation is and am looking for input from others. Something's wrong, most likely with my reading. But I'm pretty sure Fantine is pregnant at the time the men abandon the women at the restaurant. Somehow i've messed up the timeline.

Animals are nothing more than the forms our virtues and our vices take...

Hugo goes on to call them visible phantoms of our souls, which, I think, is a bit much. So imagine my surprise when I google this and find all kinds of stuff on humans, animals, and metaphors, including research papers. It's called zoomorph.

But we do use animals in metaphors for human behavior and looks.

vulpine
pig
skunk
feline
hyena
jackal
weasel
snake
rat
ass
squirrelly
sheep
lamb
lionize
eye of the tiger

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "But I'm pretty sure Fantine is pregnant at the time the men abandon the women at the restaurant. Somehow i've messed up the timeline."

Possibly it's a translation issue? The end of book 3, ch 9 (where the men abandon the women) in the Denny Penguin translation is 'It was her first love, as we have said. She had given herself to Tholomyes as to a husband, and the poor girl had a child'.

You are right Roman. My bad. Thanks.

Mine (Julie Rose translation) says the same. That explains it. Goes to show how good my memory is.

I remember doing a double-take at the time of reading since I'd assumed 1) that Fantine was younger than she must have been, and 2) that the relationship with T was more recent and transitory. In fact, they must have been together at least two or so years before he callously and casually abandoned her.

Yup. And he ignores her letters.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I remember doing a double-take at the time of reading since I'd assumed 1) that Fantine was younger than she must have been, and 2) that the relationship with T was more recent and transitory. In f..."

I really didn't pay attention to the timeline. I just knew he dumped her and wouldn't reply to her letters, which is not uncommon. I may seem a bit too harsh with Fantine, but she knew about the "morality" clause. It was really common. Unwed mothers were considered unworthy by society, and not just in France.

Why didn't she talk to someone about her plight, instead of trying to hide it? And why did she give Cosette to Mrs. Thernadier? She didn't know the woman, and it seemed strange to me for a mother to just hand off her child. Though Cosette is a bastard, I do think a church would have looked for adoptive parents.

Yes, she is naive, but Hugo makes her too much of a victim. It's like she's more of a plot device than a person.

Just on the point about Cosette, Fantine plans to just leave her with the Thenardiers for some months till she can get a job and a room and then intends to take her back - handing Cosette over to the church for adoption would have been permanent, I think.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Just on the point about Cosette, Fantine plans to just leave her with the Thenardiers for some months till she can get a job and a room and then intends to take her back - handing Cosette over to t..."

Point taken, but this has never made sense to me, handing her child over to a stranger. I understand there are people who have sold their children, but this is the only case I can think of in which someone pawns her child.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Fantine plans to just leave her with the Thenardiers for some months till she can get a job and a room and then intends to take her back - hand..."

Yes, this is a weak point. Another is when fired she chooses not to confront Valjean and ask him for her job back. What's she got to lose? Given her daughter's plight (and her own) there isn't any good reason for her not to make the attempt.

Fantine (and Valjean before his epiphany) is Les Miserables in microcosm. She is the (female) embodiment of social injustice -- a little too saintly, a little too naive, a little too abused. Everything that could go badly for Fantine does go badly for her.

But are Valjean and Myriel any more authentic? All three experience epiphanies: Myriel during the revolution becomes the priest saint; Valjean, after receiving a kindness from Myriel, transforms into the employer/mayor saint, and Fantine is saved by Valjean at the police station. He absolves her of all wrongdoing, and she becomes what?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hummingbirder wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Fantine plans to just leave her with the Thenardiers for some months till she can get a job and a room and then intends to take her back - hand..."

Yes, ..."

I thought it was just me. She's happy, but still doomed.

'Pawns her child' made me laugh, Hummingbirder!

I can see what you mean about Fantine being a passive victim, but for me she still works. I can see why it wouldn't occur to her to speak to Valjean about her lost job: she's friendless and illiterate, he's the mayor and factory owner - his past is unknown and they move in different worlds. She's as amazed at his reaching out to her as he was by Myriel - neither of them have expectations of being helped or saved.

Whew! Javert's butt is wound tighter than a spring. A strict disciplinarian and self-flagellator, he's a mad-dog Inquisition priest ever ready to burn someone, including himself, at the stake.

Javert can't resign; he must be punished by authority. All the major characters so far are portraits in the extreme.

I found the opinion on Fantine as a plot device interesting. I found her story very sad and I think it is an extreme portrayal of what was happening to women in poverty in this time. She is a plot device in the sense that all the bad things happen to her but all of them are realistic occurrences.

I think the reason she didn’t go to Monsieur Madeleine about her job is that she thought it was him who had fired her. Maybe there was an element of pride in that she didn’t want to beg for her job. Maybe she thought she would find a way to solve her problems, perhaps demonstrating her naivety. I wonder if her previous experience of meeting the Tholomyes and the others in Paris had saved her from poverty before and maybe she thought it would happen again.

I was also confused about the timeline. I had assumed the affair with Tholomyes was short lived. I did wonder, is Cosette not his child? I don’t understand how Fantine could have concealed a pregnancy and child from a man she was in love with. Or if he knew, then he is even more of a scoundrel than Hugo led us to believe!

I find Javert annoying. The section where he was begging to be fired just irritated me, as surely he should see that he is lucky to be in a job when there are people like Fantine selling her teeth and body just to scrape by. Maybe it is because he cannot see that there could be a similarity between them.

I am really enjoying this, and finding it much easier going than I expected. Looking forward to the next section.

Fantine handing Cosette over to the inn keepers further demonstrates her naivety. She assumes that they will look after her child as they appear to look after their own daughters.

Why couldn’t she go back to her home town and tell them she is a widow with a child?

Javert represses emotions, including sympathy, empathy, and kindness. He's guided by a warped logic. Someone like that is incapable of doing someone like Fantine a kindness. To do so would strike at the heart of his identity. He is in the worst of professions because he can do so much damage.

But he is a victim too. He was born and raised in a prison. Even oppressors can be victims. Both Valjean and Fantine had better chances than he had.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Dianne wrote: "I wonder if there would have been any way for Fantine to not fall into the abject poverty she ended up in. She was improvident financially, and ignorant, and was easily taken advanta..."

very true- there is no safety net to protect the poor without means, so if an unfortunate circumstance were to befall them, they couldn't easily climb out of it. Even in countries today with programs for the poor it is often a vicious cycle when one problem afflicting the poor results in another, etc. A leg up can help some but many remain trapped. In Fantine's case, if she had received aid she would have been able to live a life of modest means - but I presume she still could not have lived with Cosette unless she didn't have to work.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I also love the way the plot clicks together so wonderfully: the scene where Valjean/Madeleine lifts the cart off the driver, thus revealing himself to Javert. Even when characters do the good and ..."

I thought that Hugo's 'hints' about Jean Valjean's identity were a little too overt - and there were several of them! By the time he lifted the cart it was pretty clear who he was. Also, you just KNEW he was going to lift the cart!

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: " This woman's child was one of the most divine creatures you could ever hope to see, a little girl two or three years old.

The little girl is Cosette being held in Fantine's arms as she arrives at..."

She is aging quickly! you know it seemed to me that she 'gave up' once she had to surrender her last treasure - her beauty. After she gave up her hair and her teeth she seemed to lose the identity that she had. It's amazing how gullible she was - I was hoping that the neighbor who taught her to live modestly but also have warned her about the likelihood of being duped by the unscrupulous like the Thenardiers!

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Father Madeleine required goodwill of the men and pure morals of the women and honesty of everyone. He had designed the workshops in order to keep the sexes separate so the women and girls could re..."

I think the foreman guy really didn't have a choice - given the societal expectations at that time that is just what would have been expected. Hugo is challenging those moral standards and expectations, but those kind of changes usually take considerable time to really evolve.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Animals are nothing more than the forms our virtues and our vices take...

Hugo goes on to call them visible phantoms of our souls, which, I think, is a bit much. So imagine my surprise when I goog..."

this is too bizarre!

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Yup. And he ignores her letters."

I honestly don't know how any human could do this. It's like he was a sociopath.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Just on the point about Cosette, Fantine plans to just leave her with the Thenardiers for some months till she can get a job and a room and then intends to take her back - hand..."

I think she was just desperate and didn't see any other options. She wasn't really savvy or bright, and probably just saw the kids laughing and playing and thought - I want that for my child, and I can't provide for her.

Roman Clodia wrote: "'Pawns her child' made me laugh, Hummingbirder!

I can see what you mean about Fantine being a passive victim, but for me she still works. I can see why it wouldn't occur to her to speak to Valjean..."

It's a good point RC, given the different levels of society they operate on, she might not have thought that questioning her fate was even possible. Hugo refers to her acceptance of the firing, she felt she 'deserved' it.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Whew! Javert's butt is wound tighter than a spring. A strict disciplinarian and self-flagellator, he's a mad-dog Inquisition priest ever ready to burn someone, including himself, at the stake."

Laughing, so true! This guy is a total freak. He is totally obsessive and literally can't wait to bring JV down. He reminds me a bit of the underground man in Notes from Underground.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Javert can't resign; he must be punished by authority. All the major characters so far are portraits in the extreme."

Good point - he has to be punished. He lives in a world of domination and submission, right and wrong, and he subjects himself to the harsh judgment he passes on everyone else.

Heather wrote: "Fantine handing Cosette over to the inn keepers further demonstrates her naivety. She assumes that they will look after her child as they appear to look after their own daughters.

Why couldn’t sh..."

She must have not had any family there who could take her in? it does seem bizarre.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Javert represses emotions, including sympathy, empathy, and kindness. He's guided by a warped logic. Someone like that is incapable of doing someone like Fantine a kindness. To do so would strike a..."

In a way, it's amazing he didn't go in the other direction. He is trying desperately to overcome his circumstances and do right.

Dianne wrote: "I honestly don't know how any human could do this. It's like he was a sociopath."

He was probably ordinary for the time, a time when "illegitimate" meant exactly that. The reactions here are a corollary to condemning the woman for having the child out of wedlock -- painting that big, bright, red "A" on the forehead --while the guy gets away free.