North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[The Hales arrive in Helstone, and begin to settle into their new home. Margaret meets Mr. Thornton for the first time, who also recommends several pupils for Mr. Hale in his new position as a tutor. Dixon and Margaret together undertake the task of engaging another servant, before Margaret makes the acquaintance of Bessy and Mr. Higgins. Chapter Nine finishes with a discussion in the homes of the both families, of the upcoming engagement Mr. Thornton has to visit the Hale's residence. (hide spoiler)]

I liked the description of the first meeting between John Thornton and Margaret:

Mr. Thornton was a good deal more surprised and discomfited than she. Instead of a quiet, middle-aged clergyman, a young lady came forward with frank dignity,--a young lady of a different type to most of those he was in the habit of seeing. Her dress was very plain: a close straw bonnet of the best material and shape, trimmed with white ribbon; a dark silk gown, without any trimming or flounce; a large Indian shawl, which hung about her in long heavy folds, and which she wore as an empress wears her drapery. He did not understand who she was, as he caught the simple, straight, unabashed look, which showed that his being there was of no concern to the beautiful countenance, and called up no flush of surprise to the pale ivory of the complexion. He had heard that Mr. Hale had a daughter, but he had imagined that she was a little girl.

The man is (view spoiler)[ instantly smitten, and despite Margaret being described as not quite a looker, he sees her as beautiful. There's one passage in which he says so. And I also like that the first thing he does afterwards is go to the landlord of the house where the Hales will live, which has some horrible garish paper covering the walls, and makes him take it down because he knows Margaret and her dad hate that :D.

Of course, the misunderstanding couldn't be absent! Thornton thinks she's cold and thinks low of him for being a manufacturer, a worker. (hide spoiler)] He's not so far from Margaret's initial impression, though, going by her words on traders, which if one looks at them that way, sound very classist.

The initial meeting is interesting. Thornton is a bit cool towards Margaret as well but for different reasons. I think he admires her frankness and her strength.

Higgins is an unusual character. While Bessy spouts the usual Victorian attitude towards death, Higgins seems to be an atheist. I feel bad for Bessy and don't like what her father says to her. Margaret comes off well in the scene where they first meet. She doesn't appear to come on too snobby and clergyman's daughter. She seems truly interested in Bessy. I think M is lonely and looking for a friend. Their friendship will help Margaret grow up and see her situation isn't that bad.

I enjoyed the part where Margaret had it all planed out where she would put everyone & where all the rooms would be. Mr Thorton pick a poor time to visit & I wonder what made Mr Thorton think Margaret was a little girl. I wonder what their first meeting would have been like if Mr Thorton had pickeda different time to visit.

So these chapters see them settling in. I thought the meeting of Margaret and Mr Thornton was written interestingly, the amount of description used! The poor man was overwhelmed with impressions, it's no wonder he couldn't converse with poor Margaret. It was so sweet what he did regarding the wallpaper. He is attracted to her but he doesn't want to be. Unfortunately for Margaret this has been her lot in life lately. She is entirely oblivious to the effect she has had on him.

I felt for Margaret, having to get used to the bolder ways of the Northerners and the difficulty in obtaining reasonably-priced domestic help has given her an element of culture shock. Her offer to go and visit the Higginses was slightly condescending, though she didn't mean it that way. I think she forgot for a moment she's no longer the parson's daughter. I am glad for Mr Hale that he has a friend, he is a man who is very alone. It's interesting that his wife is jealous of this now but she hasn't cared for twenty-odd years what he's been doing.

It's an interesting view of Thornton's mother, as well. She is a strong character, and it seems as though he is too, firm and decisive. She is also very protective and jealous over her son.

I always laugh at that bit about the wallpaper! When we're told that the man would re-paper the walls for the sake of a sharp remonstrance from Mr. Thornton, though not for the sake of a country family. I always find myself thinking "Ha! Serves you right for being so mean." But I also find it sweet that Thornton would do such a thing for the Hales, even after finding Margaret so strangely proud and disagreeable.

I feel bad for Margaret, the way that get offer of friendship is received - but it seemed less awkward in the book than in the series, actually. And I too find it strange that Maria is jealous! It's another case of 'Woman, you really need yo make up your mind..."

Don't you just love the relationship between Thornton and his mother! It's so adorable, even if Mrs Thornton can be a little too haughty. I was surprised to remember that Hannah was shy about visiting people - she doesn't seem the type, does she? - and sorry for her that it made her seem more disagreeable to those who did not know her.

I think a lot of shy people are often accused of being stuck-up & snobby.

Very true. :) In fact, I'm probably a living example of that. :D

Yes me too! I have been accused of having a 'keep away from me' aura :) I think a lot of people who read are likely to be on the introverted side, it's quite a solitary habit, until we find people who like the same books as us!

Although Mrs Thornton isn't a reader I don't see her as being the type to let people too close for reasons that are spoilers for these chapters. I think it's very touching just how fiercely she loves her son, she is so proud of him and he really is the beat of her heart. She makes an interesting contrast to Margaret's parents as she is so much more intense than them and she is so focussed on her son while Margaret's parents are quite different.

And at the same time she does not show much affection for her daughter...no wonder Fanny turned out the way she did. I get the feeling Margaret has the same problem with her mother and Dixon (she is just not Fredrick.... :/)

What is it with that mothers and sons. I see it in my family too. Also fathers and sons. So where does that laave the daughters?

I swear, we were much better off in prehistoric times when people were worshiping mother goddess and women as child-bearers

To be honest, I'm often aware that I'm giving off that sort of aura, but you can't really help it, can you? And occasionally it can be fun too. ;) But you're quite right, a lot of readers are introverted, until we find people who don't mind us chattering away to our hearts content about these beautiful books!

I also think you're quite right about Mrs. Thornton - she is that shy and introverted yet proud type, and her relationship with her son is definitely one of my favourite things about both the book and the series. It's so unbelievably sweet, and while Margaret's parents can be very sweet in their own way, Mrs. Thornton's complete and utter devotion is admirable and heart-warming.

@ Samanta:
I'm pretty sure it does say somewhere that she loves Fanny... but I know what you mean, they don't quite have that same connection between the two of them. I don't know what it is in general, but in the case of Mrs. Thornton I think it's due to the fact that mother and son have struggled for years, both supporting a daughter who can hardly remember the hardship and has grown to be spoiled. Mrs. Thornton had to put most of her energy into supporting her son, and I think Fanny may still have turned out the way she did (more or less) if she'd had that connection with her mother.

But as for Margaret... I find that really unfair! I truly don't know what it is that Frederick has that Margaret doesn't. I always feel so sorry for Margaret, seeming to be the least loved child, even though she has stayed and supported her parents through hardships, while Fred got involved in a mutiny and he will never see them again, besides which they're sending him money. Bleargh. Poor Margaret. :( I don't understand it.

I don't think it's fair on Margaret either, as she is definitely a child to be proud of. Mrs Thornton's view of her children is explained in later chapters. She loves her daughter, but her son is so strong, like her, and she is so fiercely proud of him because he pulled their family back from complete ruin.

Well, Mr. Thornton is certainly worth being proud of. If I had to choose one of the Thornton children for Hannah to be more fond of, I'd choose John every time. :)

Samanta wrote: "And at the same time she does not show much affection for her daughter...no wonder Fanny turned out the way she did. I get the feeling Margaret has the same problem with her mother and Dixon (she i..."

Yes, I got the same vibe. And it bothered me that of the one hundred and seventy pounds of income the Hales' got on their investments, seventy was sent off to Frederick.

Nancy wrote: "I enjoyed the part where Margaret had it all planed out where she would put everyone & where all the rooms would be...."

That and the dodgy wallpaper incident really made me smile!

I don't understand that wallpaper, blue and pink flowers with yellow leaves, what company would make that wallpaper in that combination, it's an abomination!

To be fair to Mrs Thornton I don't think Fanny would notice the difference in affection, we don't know her yet but I think she's quite oblivious. And to outward appearances she is the favourite child.

Ceri wrote: "I don't understand that wallpaper, blue and pink flowers with yellow leaves, what company would make that wallpaper in that combination, it's an abomination!"

LOL

Ceri wrote: "I don't understand that wallpaper, blue and pink flowers with yellow leaves, what company would make that wallpaper in that combination, it's an abomination!"

A Victorian one LOL! My guess is the owner or previous occupant felt it was either a)super cheap or b) in style. It shows the Hales have good taste.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "Ceri wrote: "I don't understand that wallpaper, blue and pink flowers with yellow leaves, what company would make that wallpaper in that combination, it's an abomination!"

A Victorian one LOL! My ..."

Yes, we are talking about a period in which hair wreaths (those are the little decorative brooches made with DEAD peoples' hair) and antimacassars and aspidistras claimed an entire island nation. Not to mention the dead stuffed birds under glass or all the little boxes with shells glued on in tasteful patterns.

Probably, as Margaret and Mrs. Hale clearly suspect, it all came down to those 'shoppy people' and all those dreadful Irish servants!

Ceri wrote: "I don't understand that wallpaper, blue and pink flowers with yellow leaves, what company would make that wallpaper in that combination, it's an abomination!

To be fair to Mrs Thornton I don't thi..."

*laughs and shakes head* I don't get it either. :D You should have seen the look on my face when I read about that wallpaper...

A nice introduction to Thornton but we have the advantage over Margaret here, we see a man who wants to better himself, admires her and goes out of his way to be useful to his prospective friends. She met a man who looked and sounded a little rough compared to the gentleman she’s known, who couldn’t carry a conversation or would not even try to share the burden of it with her, at a time when she was tired and wanting to rest but was too polite to say so.

We know she already has a prejudice of people in trade (though her father asks her not to consider Thornton as one,) but he doesn’t do very much to dispel any bad impressions she has, and neither do the bold, outspoken people she meets on the street.

I can’t help liking Higgins and Bessie but I also can’t help noting that Higgins is somewhere between the two tv portrayals of him… definitely the older, gruffer man from the 70’s version but with a kinder softer side underneath that comes out better in the later version. The recent series did seem to play up some of Margaret’s awkwardness but I think it was probably necessary to convey how uncomfortable she was.

I think what struck me the most about Margaret’s character in these chapters was the fact that she began to think better of Milton itself, when she felt she had found some friends, someone to take an interest in and care about.

While Thornton’s mother is obviously defending her son I think her attitude shows a little of Margaret’s prejudice but in the other direction. They both value their own virtues and under value the others.

Some really good points there Louise. I haven't seen the older version, I hadn't even heard of it, will have to check it out.

What do you think of the comparison between the film's (2004 mini-series) first meeting scene and the first meeting scene in the book? I adore the first meeting scene as Gaskell wrote it. Thornton is so gob-smacked by Margaret he can't even formulate sentences! Lol.

I love both first-meeting scenes equally, but depending on which scene you're making a comparison with, I think I slightly prefer the series version. It's adorable how Mr. Thornton almost can't speak in the book version, but he leaves with a stronger feeling of dislike than you get from the first meeting (actual meeting, i.e. not shouting at each other) in the series.

The scene where Margaret and Thornton see each other for the first time is visually brilliant and emotionally intense, but not exactly ideal, having her seeing Thornton firing a worker. The first scene during which they speak to each other normally in the series - I adore that scene. You gain a sudden sympathy for Thornton because of his suffering, and Armitage perfectly conveys the characters slight feeling of being uncouth next to Margaret's righteous, beautiful pride.

I read the book a long time ago and forgot about the meeting scene so I was struck dumb when in the book the meeting scene was completely different from the series. But then again, I wouldn't expect a Victorian writer to write a scene where a man is being violently beaten up. But I do love that scene in the series. It is very intense. :)

I think that's the thing I love best about the series, and the novel, if you group the two together. They are by no means the same, as the series does make a few changes. But the series manages - even when it does differ - to feel just as it should, to project that same beauty and emotion and intensity that the novel possesses.

I understand why the film created different 'first meeting' scenes, I really do. However, I think we probably would all agree that having John kick a man on the ground is overkill. There's no indication in Gaskell's text that Thornton is a violent or volatile man - quite the contrary. (I actually wrote a blog post about this: http://www.westofmilton.com/the-thorn...)

I totally understand it too; they needed to set up a more plausible reason for Margaret's dislike of Thornton, and also make it easier for the audience to sympathise with Thornton's views. I do agree that having John kick the man on the ground is overkill, but only very slightly. Punching? Fine. Kicking on the ground? Not fine. I'm mostly okay with it though, simply because the series attempted to explain that rare volatility by having Thornton talk about the fire that killed three hundred workers.

That was a very well written blog post, Trudy. :) I don't entirely agree with it, really, but it was brilliantly eloquent nonetheless.

Trudy wrote: "(I actually wrote a blog post about this: http://www.westofmilton.com/the-thorn...)
"

Reading your blog post and loving this:

"Come on, this is the man who has lived with Fanny for 17 years – this man is the definition of patience! Self-discipline is his middle name."

Had me laughing out loud :D (but quietly, because I'm in a public library atm :D )

I see why they did it for the series but I really disliked it! That is NOT something John Thornton would do, it doesn't do him justice, he is a better man than that. I don't sympathise with a man who beats his workers, it's completely unacceptable. Also, it doesn't let the viewer fully appreciate her unfair prejudice against him, it looks like a fair one instead.

LOL, I missed that part! :D That's what happens when you speed-read something at ten o'clock at night. -_- Very amusing indeed!

Ceri wrote: "I see why they did it for the series but I really disliked it! That is NOT something John Thornton would do, it doesn't do him justice, he is a better man than that. I don't sympathise with a man w..."

Good point! :)

Ceri wrote: "I see why they did it for the series but I really disliked it! That is NOT something John Thornton would do, it doesn't do him justice, he is a better man than that. I don't sympathise with a man w..."

Aw, come on, it wasn't all that bad! I'm not saying it's okay to beat people up - but everyone has their own breaking point, and the series decided that John Thornton's was seeing a worker smoking after already having been warned, knowing that such a thing could cause the death of hundreds. That would make me angry too, so I say fair enough. Once you know the reason behind his actions, Margaret's prejudice very quickly goes back to seeming unfair. Thornton is allowed to be human, he's allowed to lose his temper; and though I say again, I don't agree to the extent to which he beat that worker up, I sort of like it the series didn't make him this completely and utterly untouchable pillar of self control (outside of his feelings for Margaret).

For me, part of the thing that makes historical heroes so sexy is that they have such self control (aside from their love for the heroine of course!). Thornton is a very controlled person, and he sets great store in setting a good example for his workers so it would be deeply hypocritical of him to be bearing someone up.

Plus you have to remember that I read the book before I saw the series so when I saw him doing that I was appalled that they would have him doing something so out of character. If you see the series first you don't know his character at that point so I think it would be less disappointing. Aside from the violence he is in a position of power over a worker so he's abusing somebody weaker than him, that is not who John Thornton is.

I completely agree that self-control is sexy, and I love that about Thornton - but above all I value humanity in my heroes. When they do something that is more or less wrong, and I come to understand the reason for it, I appreciate them more. And I hate to sound like I'm defending violence - because really I'm not, I'm only defending (series) Thornton. I don't see it as hypocritical to be beating that worker up. If he set clear rules about smoking and someone breaks those rules, would he not have the right to punish that person, in the workers eyes? Indeed, remember that Higgin's said that Stevens deserved it!

I can understand how having read the book may have made the series introduction to Thornton more shocking. But I guess I still don't see it as too far out of character (because the reasoning is explained) and while the word "abusing" is technically true, we must also remember that society was a little different back then.

Ceri wrote: "For me, part of the thing that makes historical heroes so sexy is that they have such self control (aside from their love for the heroine of course!)."

Tell that to Heathcliff! :D

I agree with you that it's very sexy but I just love when love makes all their well built walls crumble to dust.

Samanta wrote: "Tell that to Heathcliff! :D"

LOL! That comment is particularly amusing and relevant, considering I'm right in the middle of re-watching Sparkhouse at this very moment. And I feel precisely the same way you do (though you put it much more concisely than me :D) - I love it when you can at least see through those walls, or they break down a bit, if not "crumbling to dust". :)

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one Becca! I see why they did it but it makes him lesser in my eyes, and it's not something the real, book Mr Thornton did anyway. By abusing I don't mean physical abuse, although it was, but abuse of power. If the man hurts Thornton what happens to him, jail perhaps? Thornton could stop him getting a job elsewhere, if the worker has a family they could starve with no income. He has no choice but to take it and the abuse of power I actually object to more than the violence. Plus, if he's beating up a worker does he do it all the time?

Samanta, you are exactly right, I've never liked Heathcliff, that man is no gentleman!

Yes, I think so - which is all right. :) Perhaps I could agree to it being an abuse of power, you're probably right about that, though I still maintain that the man deserved to be punished, if not quite so harshly. And I think the series makes it pretty clear that Thornton wouldn't beat a worker up all the time; that losing his temper is only a rare thing and only happens at extreme provocation, a.k.a. someone almost burning down your mill. Again, I say fair enough, but we can agree to disagree. :) I can totally understand where you're coming from, and I do agree a little.

In relation to the Higginses, what on earth is going on with all these 'hoo's?! It appears to mean her or she but was it a word or is it meant to denote an accent? I think Milton is generally accepted to be Manchester but it doesn't sound very Mancunian to me.

I've always taken it to mean "her" or something like it. It might just be meant to denote a worker's way of speaking, but I'm not all that familiar with the nuances of accents in Britain. :)

Apparently it's from an old English word if this is correct, I thought it was just a badly written accent but apparently not! http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/grol/gas...

I was just now strugling with that word too. My first reaction was "wtf?!" :D

Thanks Ceri! At least that explains that annoying word "clem" too... I was pretty sure I knew what it meant, but not 100%.

@ Samanta: Yup, my first reaction too. :D

Becca wrote: "Samanta wrote: "or they break down a bit, if not "crumbling to dust". :) "

Yeah, that might have been a tad too poetic :D
Oh well, I always had a penchant for drama :D

Samanta wrote: "Yeah, that might have been a tad too poetic :D"

LOL, it was a nice bit of eloquence, very pretty indeed, but probably just coming it a tad too strong. :D No problem, though.

I liked it! Very romantic :)

I knew what clem meant, I think I'd read it in other books. The good thing is that you can tell what it means due to the context in N&S, it's a pain when a word is just incomprehensible and you have to look it up to make sense of it. Hoo bugged me though, because it didnt seem right as an accent, that's the only reason I looked it up.

Ceri wrote: "I liked it! Very romantic :)

I knew what clem meant, I think I'd read it in other books. The good thing is that you can tell what it means due to the context in N&S, it's a pain when a word is jus..."

Yes, romantic is the right word. :)

I know, it's so great when the author gives you enough context to figure out the word - Georgette Heyer for one is one of those authors who sometimes gives you enough context, and sometimes just doesn't bother. :D Clem was pretty easy to figure out, but "hoo" always seemed a little odd, I agree.

"Hoo" was downright insulting to me. Maybe I listened to much of Hip - hop and Rap when I was a kid :D