North & South discussion
North and South group read
>
Chapters 13-15
I feel bad for Frederick but in a way, I also think he's cowardly to hide away. He isn't doing his family any good by living in exile. He should be sending money to them at least. I think he's spoiled. Dixon and Mrs. Hale are obsessed with him and poor Margaret is mud. I do like how Margaret handles the news of her mother's illness and earns the respect of Dixon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Hales sending money to Frederick? You're right, Qnpoohbear; even if he's in hiding, he should be able to get a job and support himself, even be sending money to his family, rather than vice versa. A different thought: somewhere in this part of the book (sorry, I'm too lazy to go back and search for the exact reference*) I read that a year has passed since Edith's wedding. That really startled me. I thought they moved from Helstone after Margaret had been home less than a month, and it seemed to me that they'd only been in Milton a few months, maybe 6 at the very most. Time flies in this book as well as in real life!
*ETA: I found the reference; it's at the beginning of Chapter 19.
Tadiana wrote: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Hales sending money to Frederick? You're right, Qnpoohbear; even if he's in hiding, he should be able to get a job and support himself, even be sending money..."I'm pretty sure the Hales are sending Fred. money. That's just all kinds of wrong, especially when they're struggling. When he was in South America he should have tried for the USA. Lots of opportunities out West at this time.
On finishing this batch of chapters, this conversation between Mrs Thornton and Margaret sparked some thoughts:'Mr. Bell! What can he know of John? He, living a lazy life in a drowsy college. But I'm obliged to you, Miss Hale. Many a missy young lady would have shrunk from giving an old woman the pleasure of hearing that her son was well spoken of.'
'Why?' asked Margaret, looking straight at Mrs. Thornton, in bewilderment.
'Why! because I suppose they might have consciences that told them how surely they were making the old mother into an advocate for them, in case they had any plans on the son's heart.'
She smiled a grim smile, for she had been pleased by Margaret's frankness; and perhaps she felt that she had been asking questions too much as if she had a right to catechise. Margaret laughed outright at the notion presented to her; laughed so merrily that it grated on Mrs. Thornton's ear, as if the words that called forth that laugh, must have been utterly and entirely ludicrous. Margaret stopped her merriment as soon as she saw Mrs. Thornton's annoyed look.
'I beg your pardon, madam. But I really am very much obliged to you for exonerating me from making any plans on Mr. Thornton's heart.'
'Young ladies have, before now,' said Mrs. Thornton, stiffly.
The impression I get from this is that Mrs Thornton is an exceedingly domineering woman, one of those dreaded mammas that will never think any woman is good enough for their precious boy, andif they marry will overshadow them. I wonder if she, with her touchiness upon anything that smells remotely of less-than-complimentary opinions of John, could be held responsible at least partially for John's also evident touchiness upon being looked down as an uncouth trader.
Also, since her first impression, even before knowing Margaret is to suspect her, and once she meets her, she ascribes to her unfairly the motivations of a husband-hunting gold-digger, plus she remarks to John himself that he should be wary of women who will want him for his money only, I am leaning towards believing she might have had a hand in keeping Thornton single this long, for he's 30 already, a good age for having a family of his own, especially since he's well-established and can provide for them lavishly
Marquise Your observations of Mrs. Thornton are pretty much the same as mine. Her son is devoted to her but at the same time, their relationship is a bit too co-dependant. Maybe she thinks if/when he marries, his wife won't allow him to support his mother or allow her to live with them. Some of her haughtiness might be fear for her own future.
Mod
Margaret comes home to Helstone after Edith's wedding in late July. The Hales move to Milton in early November. (At least she had a few months of freedom and happiness!)
Mr Thornton isn't invited to the Hales for tea until spring. By the time of the riot, it will be about a year since Edith's wedding.
Thanks, Trudy! That clears up a lot. I had completely missed that Margaret had that much time in Helstone before they moved. And I had assumed that Mr. Thornton was invited over for tea within a few weeks of their moving there. I'll have to pay more attention to these details. :/
Mod
It's not easy to lay out what happened when, and Gaskell even errs in a few time-related sequences in her book. (I thought editors were supposed to catch these inconsistencies! Um...where were you, Dickens?)
I am also surprised that Frederick takes so much of his family's money. But to be fair at this stage he may not know how much their circumstances are reduced. It isn't an option for him to come out of exile, he will very likely be hanged.I enjoyed Margaret and Thornton's discussion in relation to the workers. I agreed with Margaret more, that it seems odd that two lots of people, so codependent should be at such odds with one another and I also agree that there is a place to help your employees improve their lot in life without trampling their independence and dictating to them how they spend their leisure hours.
Re. Mrs Thornton and her son, although she is very protective of him I think she tries to keep that hidden from him, as indeed she does with any positive real emotion she has. When she said in a previous chapter that she hated Margaret, even before she met her, she waited until John was out of the room. I think the reasons he's likely still single are that he has been paying off his father's debts for years and it's only of late years that he's had any type of leisure time, hence his taking up studying. So only now has he had any opportunity to think about marrying. Plus he's obviously been knocked for six by the unusual Miss Hale, presumably he's not met anybody who he's reacted to the same in the past. I think Mrs Thornton wouldn't see anybody as good enough for her son but I also think that she loves him enough not to stand in the way of his happiness. Her love for John is very selfless, it's the thing I like about her the most and is the only soft thing about her.
Mod
*rolling on the floor laughing* Yes indeed. Bad Dickens. Bad. :P
Mod
I think you're right on all of those points, Ceri. :) It is odd that the workers and masters should be so opposed to each other, (view spoiler)
As to John and Hannah; again I think you're right, Mr. Thornton hasn't really had time recently to be looking around for a suitable bride, besides which there are no young ladies quite like Miss Hale in Milton, it would seem. :) I too find that her love for her son is the best thing about Mrs. Thornton. That and her admirable strength of character, even if that sometimes makes her a bit harsh.
The sparks are really starting to fly between Margaret & John.
Mod
Putting it mildly. :D
Chapter 15 discussion on the relationship between masters and "hands". I have to say that I agree with Thornton here. I do not want my employer to know what I'm doing out of my working hours. When I leave work at a certain hour (whichever it may be) I leave WORK behind and don't think of it till next day. I value my independence too. What exactly does Margaret want from him? I wonder what she would feel like if she was a working woman. Given the circumstances, I do not think she has the right to complain and pass judgement when she knows nothing of the subject.
I think although she is wrong to judge him so harshly she does have a point in that Thornton believes he has no responsibility for improving his employees' lives when this was a time of limited opportunities for ordinary people. Although he has no right to interfere in their lives this was the time when social conscience began, and giving them opportunities to improve themselves and their lot in life isn't the same thing as dictating to them. I can't remember where it is but Bessy mentions that neither she nor her sister knew how to do things in the house, and the Bouchers are another family where it is said that they didn't know the right way to manage things. To us it seems patronising but to the Victorians it was all the thing. I would imagine that the level of knowledge about things would be very limited, to only people in your immediate surroundings. With so many children working you wonder when they'd have chance to learn anything not work-related, and in fact knowledge that isn't work related doesn't seem to be prized in Milton.
Ok, I see your point :) I think I was more vexed with Margaret's conduct than with her thinking. I have never perceieved her as snobbish before. Ok, we can all behave as snobs from time to time (I know that I do) but in this case she has no credit to be able to behave the way she does. Oh, I dislike social class systems.
Yes I agree,she has a point but her attitude is annoying! The snobbishness is ridiculous
Margaret is forgetting her own experience looking for a maid in Ch. 8: "she found...difficulty of meeting with any one in a manufacturing town who did not prefer the better wages and greater independence of working in a mill." So most of the town's young women would seem to agree with Samanta @16.
Ceri wrote: "I think although she is wrong to judge him so harshly she does have a point in that Thornton believes he has no responsibility for improving his employees' lives when this was a time of limited opportunities"This is so true. Men like Higgins aren't even allowed to vote yet! Middle class men like Thornton only got the right to vote in 1832.
In the South, where Margaret comes from, it's the responsibility of the parish to care for the poor. In the North, they don't have that tight community so it's up to the mill owners to look after their workers and help them. There was no such thing as a welfare state yet and even if there was, the workers would be too proud to ask for help.
Victorian Web-Politics
But there is one thing that Margaret needs to remember she's not in the south anymore she isin a whole aother word.
Is is a whole new world, but one thing that is nice about Margaret is that she is caring but she also stands by her views. She is more compassionate than the people she meets in the North and over time both she and Thornton affect the other's views, he develops his social conscience.
Mod
This aspect of North & South is one that I find to be one of the most beautiful and the most heart-breaking, at exactly at the same time. It's terribly sad because both Margaret and Thornton are right in their own ways. I agree with Thornton that outside of his workers' hours, he has no right to interfere. But I also agree with Margaret that compassion is of paramount importance, especially in a society such as Milton - 'compassion' and 'dictating' are very different things.
These differences in opinion cause so much pain between Margaret and Thornton, and because they both have good sides and bad sides to their arguments, it feels so unfair that their views should be causing a rift between them. But it truly is beautiful to see the two of them eventually come to understand each other - Margaret coming to understand better the position of the masters, and Thornton eventually understanding that even in a position of power, you can help those beneath you without compromising your strength or integrity.
@#21 Qnpoohbear: In the South, where Margaret comes from, it's the responsibility of the parish to care for the poor. In the North, they don't have that tight community so it's up to the mill owners to look after their workers and help them.Thanks! That has to be the way Margaret is thinking. And that way of thinking has simply never occurred to Thornton.
American mill-owners were starting to move in that direction by the late 1800s, at least in Massachusetts, providing group housing, meals. Initially the mill-workers were local farm girls and their parents saw the opportunity but wanted to be sure their daughters would be safe in chaperoned houses. Later in the century American factory owners employed an almost entirely imported Irish and eventually French Canadian labor force which had no real homes to go to. So again, from a practical point of view the owners had to provide more support.
Hana wrote: "American mill-owners were starting to move in that direction by the late 1800s, at least in Massachusetts, providing group housing, meals. Initially the mill-workers were local farm girls and their parents saw the opportunity but wanted to be sure their daughters would be safe in chaperoned houses. Later in the century American factory owners employed an almost entirely imported Irish and eventually French Canadian labor force which had no real homes to go to. So again, from a practical point of view the owners had to provide more support. "We also don't have the one single church parish to care for the local poor or thank heavens the workhouse tradition. The mill villages weren't ideal but certainly the women saw them as a place where they could be more free. They objected to the speed-up of the machinery and the long hours for low wages. The women of Lowell had already organized by this time. It's interesting to note the differences between our New England mills and the mills in the novel.
Excellent points Qnpoohbear. Have you been to Lowell (in Massachusetts)? When they turn all the machines on all at once it is an awesome sight and sound and gives me some sense of why men like Thornton had such a sense of pride and excitement about their achievements.
Hana wrote: "Excellent points Qnpoohbear. Have you been to Lowell (in Massachusetts)? ."No but it's not far from where my dad's family lives. I've been to Pawtucket, RI to Slater Mill, the first textile mill built from Arkwright's plans smuggled into America. They turn on the machines in the original 18th century mill and it's loud. They say it is haunted possibly by those who died there or maybe by Bessy's American counterparts. It wasn't a mill village the way Lowell was later but it was the site of the first women's strike.
Another sign that Mr. Hale tends to suppress facts is, besides his not telling his wife about his crisis with the church, that he doesn´t want to see her illness. He thinks he would see her suffering and believes Margaret is ill, not his wife. He even pushes his daughter aside as if to push unpleasant ideas aside.
Qnpoohbear wrote: "I've been to Pawtucket, RI to Slater Mill, the first ..." I didn't know about the smuggled plans! I'll have to make a pilgrimage to Slater Mill and Lowell once we've finished out group read :)I was watching the interview with Richard Armitage at the end of the DVDs and he talked about what an amazing experience it was walking onto the mill set, Thornton's kingdom and he said he felt as if he "grew two inches!" There is a kind of power and majesty about all those machines.
Michaela wrote: "Another sign that Mr. Hale tends to suppress facts is, besides his not telling his wife about his crisis with the church, that he doesn´t want to see her illness..."He is sadly weak and such a contrast to Thornton's strength.
Hana if you come to Slater Mill let me know. It's very close to where I live. Samuel Slater was a clever apprentice who left England with the plans for operating the Arkwright mill in his head in 1789. British law forbade textile workers to share technological information or to leave the country. They failed to consider the loop-hole of memorizing. He offered his servants to some wealthy merchants in Rhode Island and pretty much started the Industrial Revolution in America.
Mod
Mr. Thornton's practice of acting as an autocrat doesn't give his workers any credit for having intelligence of their own. I'm totally with Margaret when she asks him why he doesn't just explain his reasons to the workers when they ask for a raise. Certainly, the workers deserve at least some explanation!
I see Thornton getting too caught up in the strict business logic of everything, whereas Margaret is suggesting that he take time to dwell on the human element involved in the relations between masters and men.
This second time when they argue, Thornton has come over to the house to leave the doctor's note. I wonder how he became the emissary - did he volunteer to take the information all the way to Crampton himself (a two mile walk)? And he can't stay long.
Both at the beginning and at the very end of his visit, he directs his speech to Margaret alone. :)
And I love how he gets vexed so often during this debate. But he really does want to hear what Margaret says. And he wants very much to explain himself. He even loses his ability to concentrate on the discussion when Margaret mentions Captain Lennox. lol.
Hannah is a piece of work. She doesn't think her son should waste his time on reading the classics! Yikes. She has a very limited vision of 'success.' I'm glad her son feels differently. I think Hannah may still be overcompensating for what happened in the past. She needs to relax a little now. She's got her honor back in spades.
I don't think John has looked for a wife yet because he's the type to be wholly involved in his work and he's not met anyone that sparks his interest. He'd still be hidden away in his office or study if Margaret hadn't appeared on the scene. :)
Excellent comments Trudy. Thornton enjoys sparring with Margaret. He values her opinion but she can't be right. Not yet...
Mod
Trudy wrote: "No, he needs time to digest what she's saying. But he's listening! To a girl, nonetheless! How many other masters would have wanted to hear her thoughts on the matter?"None and that's the point. Thornton is so struck by her that he's willing to listen. As you will see later on, not many other people are willing to listen to Margaret.
According to the introduction of the Oxford World's Classics edition:Margaret's view of Fred's mutiny is positive. She spouts Christian rhetoric supporting those who are helpless, etc. However, the political implications are revolutionary, "setting a frame for the subsequent discussions of working-class rebellion." (p. xvi) The introduction also states "The narrative does not work to fully endorse Margaret's interpretation of Frederick's action. Once again gender imagery is invoked to destabilize our assessment of Frederick." He has delicate features, redeemed by the swarthiness of his complexion, his face conveys passion, he is prone to passionate outbursts which is couched in racist terms like the natives or wild or southern countries - i.e a primitive who has no self-control. "Gaskell draws directly here on contemporary anthropological thought which casts women, children, southern and primitive races on a lower evolutionary level than that obtained by the white, Anglo-Saxon male. The associations are further reinforced by Fred's conversion to Catholicism and assimilation into the culture of Spain." (xvi) [Here we must read up on John Henry Newman's defection to Rome (1845) and the "papal aggression" of 1850 when the Pope attempted to create a Catholic hierarchy in Britain. "Roman Catholicism was repeatedly depicted as an "unmanly" religion. With its emphasis on ritual and confession, it was associated with feminine emotionality and lack of control. Fred's rebellion is tainted with these qualities, suggesting an outbreak of violent feeling rather than a serious and controlled ethical decision." (xvii) Gaskell is ambivalent towards his actions.
The whole thing about "Beresford blood" is actually a negative connotation. Aristocratic blood is associated with the most tyrannical abuse of power and lack of control. This equals the same as childlike, primitive behavior, "clearing the way for the archetype of controlled, middle-class masculinity: Mr. Thornton."
Well gracious. This goes a long way towards explaining why Margaret is so prejudiced against Mr. Thornton. He's the complete opposite of the men she knows and loves. She doesn't know any different yet and his behavior goes against everything she's been taught.
Wow harsh language describing Fred. The Hale men are not at all what they should be and that's what allows Margaret to be who she is.
Whew! Very interesting stuff, Qnpoohbear. Thanks for taking the time to share all this. The whole Fred thing did always strike me as a little odd but for no reason I had really been able to put into words. This helps.
According to the introduction of the Oxford World's Classics edition on the industrial section of the novel:re: ethical issues of rebellion, labor disputes in Milton (thinly disguised Manchester):
questions of individual conscience are cast in wider class terms
Marg's advocacy of working-class cause to Mr. T "creates a further layer of gendered meaning." (xvii)
Unitarian circles Gaskell moved in influenced her writing
models: Preston Strike 1853-1854
George Cowell for Higgins (more modest and restrained than Dickens' inspiration Mortimer Grimshaw as Slackbridge in Hard Times)
Workings class shown as caring, responsible community, "operating as almost an extended family." (xix) values associated with middle-class femininity: duty and domestic nurturing. "Margaret slips easily into her role as advocate for the working class, since its concerns are shown to be congruent with her own." (xviii).
Opposition to that is the community of manufacturers - read up on Sadler's Ten Hour Bill (1832) which attempted to regulate factory labor
Manchester manufacturers against it - maintaining rights of Masters vs. labor unions
Gaskell had a friend, W.R. Greg - vociferous opponent of factory legislation - only rule needed was supply and demand.
Matters came to a head with Preston Strike
Here we have the theme of individual freedom vs. rights of individuals. This is the issue that set off the American Civil War. (Not slavery- rights of the states to decide whether slavery stays or goes) and is still a hot button issue here in America right now. It makes the novel so much more modern than most contemporary novels of the time.
Margaret argues that Masters have a human right to do their duty and
After French Revolution social theorists grapple with concept of revolutionary idea of rights vs. duty. In 1840s novels were interpreted according to their stance on the question of rights in relation to duties." N&S not seen as inflammatory but Gaskell changed terms of the debate so those most guilty of adhering to doctrine of rights is the employers. (xix)
Chapter 15 rights of workers once off duty to be free from his interference.
Gaskell did not challenge perceived absolutes of political economy. She argues for respect and awareness of shared issues.
rights of capital can not exist without compensating duties. (see John Bright 1846) "enlightened self-interest" = treat workers kindly and they will be more productive and benefit all of society (another argument that is still relevant today).
Tadiana wrote: "Whew! Very interesting stuff, Qnpoohbear. Thanks for taking the time to share all this. The whole Fred thing did always strike me as a little odd but for no reason I had really been able to put in..."Very fascinating viz a vis Margaret's journey! Gaskell is reversing gender roles somewhat. Thornton represents all that is good about masculinity at that time but I think she's saying there needs to be a balance. Men can't be either/or.
I am most struck by Thornton's belief that he need not tell his workers why he will not raise wages - because would you tell your servants why you were saving or spending money? The analogy is telling: masters think of their workers as something akin to servants or even serfs. But at the same time they insist they are not responsible for them. But surely you would not expect your servants to go along with you lowering their wages at will? They are to trust you blindly? I don't find Margaret's old-fashioned argument from the standpoint of responsibility to care for those who serve you as compelling as Mr. Hale's suggestion that times have changed and workers are better educated and will not trust or behave blindly, so you need to treat them differently than serfs or slaves. They are expected to behave autonomously and that requires trust and respect and respect requires explanation and possibly accepting difference of opinion.I find Thornton entirely wrong here, and embarrassed about it as he realizes that the education he is just getting has already been achieved by Margaret. And I find Margaret wrong too, but at least she is more logically consistent. Plus! Flutters! Intellectual conversation as courtship! Right here, FitzSoph, I love N&S a bit more than P&P for being life-of-the-mind focused.
(And now pause to consider which of these stances on workers would be most agreeable to Mr. Darcy? I say: yes to M and responsibility to those beneath you and yes to J and not having to explain yourself and that he would so not be on board with our much more progressive Mr. Hale who is my hero in chapter 15.)
One thing I loathe about Mrs. T is her drawing room. Is she not even embarrassed that she has callers in a room with the equivalent of clear vinyl covers and plastic carpet runners but less inviting? Can you hear their thighs sticking to the seats? Ok, so not, but don't they trip on the linen drugget covering the carpet? No! She expects them to be IMPRESSED by it. Plus she is annoyed that they walked! I find her so unsympathetic that even though I can see why she places such value in show, I cannot forgive it.
Someone please help my imagination out here: " In the middle of the room, right under the bagged-up chandelier, was a large circular table, with smartly-bound books arranged at regular intervals round the circumference of its polished surface, like gaily-coloured spokes of a wheel. "Are the books face up singly or in piles or standing up between bookends? And how like spokes of a wheel (radian, right?) if arranged around the circumference?
Sorry, it appears I have located the only math problem in N&S and can't get my mind around it...
Query: is Mrs. T likely to become the type of grandma who puts in white carpet and then gets mad your baby spills juice on it? I keep thinking about square all-window wood and stone modern houses and whether Mrs T would be into avant-garde uncomfortable chairs if the story were now.
I imagined the books face up singly, and they'd be right way up to the edge of the table. It sounds very odd.I don't think Mother Thornton would like white carpet, I see her liking wooden floor better because it could still be expensive but would wear better so spills wouldn't be a problem. I think once John married his wife would have to have a separate sitting room, his mother is so inflexible!
Kate wrote: "I am most struck by Thornton's belief that he need not tell his workers why he will not raise wages - because would you tell your servants why you were saving or spending money? "I always thought he should have said something rather than wait until things got so out of hand. Maybe none of us are cut out to be capitalists?
As for Mr. Darcy, he feels responsibility for those in his care but he wouldn't tell them anything about estate matters and their wages and they wouldn't expect him to. It was a different time and people were less educated and more willing to accept the "natural order of things." Now in the 1850s we see the workers taking more interest in business and desire a living wage and the respect of their employers.
Well to me that's the whole point of the novel isn't it, pulling the employers and employees closer together and seeing each other as people so they can work on the same side rather than see everything as a battle with workers and employees having opposing interests. If Thornton didn't have anything to learn the novel would be much shorter and he'd have no character growth to go through because aside from this attitude he's pretty perfect. That is how I reconcile myself to this behaviour in him, anyway.
Oh, Ceri, how right you are! May I add though that I would say aside from this attitude and his a-bit-of-sexism, he is perfect.
What I found interesting about the labor-management, social responsibilities, discussions in this section (and in the book as a whole) is that Gaskell always seems to be able to see more than one point of view. She is not politically polarized or blinkered in the same sense that many are now; she doesn't think the answers are easy or always the same and the aspect of both Margaret and Thornton's characters' that she seems to value most is that they are both able to listen and consider other points of view (though admittedly, not without some struggles!).
Hana that aspect of the book is wonderful despite the critics who see Gaskell sidestepping the issues and not coming to a concrete conclusion. I think the book withstands the test of time as is. If she had chosen a side, then perhaps her book would be lost unless that side was the prevailing belief at any given time.
(view spoiler)[Margaret visits Bessy and learns the nature of the illness that plagues her, even as her own mother grows more ill and longs to see her son again. While talking with Mrs. Hale in her illness, Margaret learns more of Frederick's past and his current circumstances. Margaret and Mr. Hale return the call made by Mrs. Thornton and Fanny, and again Mr. Thornton visits the Hales, both interchanges again fraught with tension, misunderstandings and conflicting opinions. (hide spoiler)]