North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[Upon Doctor Donaldson visiting the house, Margaret learns of her mother's worsening condition. She makes another visit to the Higgins, and debates with Nicholas the problems in the North and the South, along with the arguments for and against a workers strike. In their own household the Thornton's debate the merits of the Hale family while issuing invitations to the dinner, and the threat of a strike begins to weigh more heavily on their minds. (hide spoiler)]

I'm in Chapter 18, and I'm going to sit here and wait patiently for the rest of you to get here. Luckily I have a couple of other buddy reads to keep me occupied so I don't worry too much about John and Margaret!

(o_O Wow, that's very fast! I'll do my best to catch up over the next couple of days, we'll see how it goes. Hopefully it won't be too long before we can join you here!)

Oops. I lied. I read up to chapter 21 last night, through the dinner party. But now I swear I'll stay put! ;)

lol--I found myself at chapter 33 last night! And yes. I think I can stay put....at least for a little while ;)

Hana wrote: "lol--I found myself at chapter 33 last night! And yes. I think I can stay put....at least for a little while ;)"

Hahaha! Now I don't feel so bad!

The only thing that's going to save me is that it's a gorgeous day here and I really must get off my couch and go for a good long walk.

Lol you guys! :D Eeeek! Hopefully I'll catch up to you soon. :)

I'm a fast reader but Hana keeps me on my toes!

I'm a fast reader too! *mock pout* I've just been busy.

The discussion in Chapter 18, where Thornton bravely tells his mother that he wishes she would like Miss Hale, was so poignant. I felt for him, especially when his mother (view spoiler)[takes what little hope he has and crushes it under her heel (hide spoiler)].

I got this far. This is a good chapter. Margaret is a champ to deal with her mother's illness.Margaret is growing up fast. I think Mr. Hale doesn't want to know how sick Mrs. Hale is partly because he'll feel guilty if the move caused her death. Does anyone else think he knows deep down but is chosing to ignore it?

There's some nice discussion on striking and how and why it's happening, what will happen and what the owners are thinking. This can not end well. The comment on the Americans entering the market is interesting. I live near the oldest mill in the U.S. and I took a class on labor history so I am especially interested in comparing what happens in the novel with what was happening here. (The beginning of women and immigrant workers and the beginning of labor unions).

Mrs. Thornton was awful in this chapter. I think she's getting scared about her son's fascination with Margaret. Mrs. T is just as snobby as Margaret in her own way.

Fanny reminds me of Caroline Bingley with her catty comments. I try to excuse her because she's young and silly.

Oh, there is no excuse for Fanny. I can't stand that girl! :/

I'm thinking that Fanny may be the exception to my statement that everyone in this novel has both good and bad aspects to their personalities. O.o

You guys make me laugh. :D I agree with you both, though.

Tadiana wrote: "I'm thinking that Fanny may be the exception to my statement that everyone in this novel has both good and bad aspects to their personalities. O.o"

How very diplomatically put ;)

Samanta wrote: "Tadiana wrote: "I'm thinking that Fanny may be the exception to my statement that everyone in this novel has both good and bad aspects to their personalities. O.o"

How very diplomatically put ;)"

I think she does though. She's very young and spoiled. She doesn't remember being poor. Fanny is used to being in the first circle of Milton society, she has a high opinion of herself. Fanny doesn't think before she speaks and only has superficial thoughts because that's how she's been brought up. She wasn't expected to bear any burdens the way Margaret is doing and the way her brother did. Plus she listens to her mother and absorbs what her mother says and does.

She is perfect for the role of a trophy wife, (view spoiler)[...which she eventually became (hide spoiler)] :)

Totally agree with both of you. :) What I will say in Fanny's defence is that she is generally (if not always) not intentionally malicious. She rarely means any harm to anyone, she just speaks without thinking.

Tadiana wrote: "The discussion in Chapter 18, where Thornton bravely tells his mother that he wishes she would like Miss Hale, was so poignant. I felt for him, especially when his mother [spoilers removed]."

I just read that part - poor Thorton, having his hopes laughed at, even while he's trying to deny to himself that he has any hopes. That would be tough. :(

Becca wrote: "I just read that part - poor Thorton, having his hopes laughed at, even while he's trying to deny to himself that he has any hopes. That would be tough. :( "

"Trying" being the operative word. Margaret is kind of oblivious to the way her words and actions affect other people, especially in the way she's reacted to both proposals.

Chapter 16: I have a question about Mrs. Hale's (view spoiler)[terminal illness. Does the book ever say what exactly the illness was? In this chapter the author skips over what the doctor's diagnosis was, and so far I haven't seen anyone say what the problem actually is. (hide spoiler)]

'Trying' is definitely the operative word there. He sort of succeeds... for a little while...

(view spoiler)[As to the illness, I don't think it's ever mentioned what it is, precisely, we only know that it's terminal. Personally I always assumed it was cancer of some sort, but of course there are many other possibilities. (hide spoiler)]

Tadiana (view spoiler)[I think it's some kind of wasting disease, maybe consumption since she has spasms. It could be anything. People died from the most trivial things, especially in an unhealthy environment. It could even be something extreme like cancer. I think Aunt Shaw is too ditzy to help but she if she came home, she could seek out specialists and quacks who practice "homeopathic" cures and water cures and things like that. The Victorians were fond of patent medicine and what we now consider controlled substances. She could even be dying just from treatment for her usual low spirits. (hide spoiler)]

I've been inclined to think it's something like (view spoiler)[cancer, or maybe tuberculosis, but in any case something the doctor clearly recognized as terminal, or else I think he would have suggested that the Hales take Mrs. Hale to a healthier climate, or some kind of treatment, rather than just basically waiting for her to die. (hide spoiler)]

Oh my word, these were a sad little collection of chapters weren't they? Margaret was so brave, as was her mother. I think sometimes when somebody is that ill they can find depths in themselves they never knew were there. I thought the way Margaret tried to make herself feel better was characteristic of her, she is a real one for counting her blessings and putting things in perspective. Mr Hale definitely sees how ill his wife is, as seen by him asking those uneasy questions when Margaret is trying to change the subject.

I also thought the section with Thornton was very poignant. Firstly his suppressed feelings for Margaret. He doesn't want to acknowledge it to himself yet. Mother Thornton senses the danger and her feathers are ruffled. I agree with the comment that Margaret doesn't think of the effect her words have on others when she speaks, she can be unconsciously hurtful.

I also felt for Mr Thornton when it was said that part of his attitude was down to his past struggles:
'He valued the position he had earned with the sweat of his brow, so much that he keenly felt its being endangered by the ignorance or folly of others-so keenly that he had no thoughts to spare for what would be the consequences of their conduct for themselves'
But it's frustrating that he won't point out the reasoning behind the rate of wages with his staff. I know it's part of his journey but still frustrating.

Ceri wrote: "Oh my word, these were a sad little collection of chapters weren't they? Margaret was so brave, as was her mother. I think sometimes when somebody is that ill they can find depths in themselves they never knew were there."

You never know how strong you are until you are seriously ill or you watch someone you love waste away due to illness. :/

Very true :( That part was so touching, I may have found some grit in my eye when reading that part.

We hear a lot about the strike from both sides, it’s a shame they don’t believe they can talk to each other!

Chapter 17: Margaret is visiting Bessy and there is theoretical talk about strike. At one moment Bessy says to Margaret that she had it all easy and Margaret says:

"'Take care,'(...)'how you judge, Bessy.(....)Do I not know anxiety, though I go about well-dressed, and have food enough?"

Doesn't she sound a tiny bit like a hypocrite given her opinion and coduct towards Thornton? Or is it just me?

She is wilfully blind about him isn't she.

Or she is predisposed to dislike him because of his trade. It must be that London high society upbringing because her father does not seem like that kind of person and I'm sure he would not teach his children to be like that.

Louise wrote: "We hear a lot about the strike from both sides, it’s a shame they don’t believe they can talk to each other!"

They need a mediator.

Margaret thinks she doesn't like Thornton because she thinks he's hard and doesn't see his workers as humans. She has a dislike of "shoppy" people but that mainly consists of people with pretensions. I don't think she knows why she dislikes Thornton. I think she's a bit afraid to like him and what that says about her.

I think Chapter 16 shows that Mrs Hale isn't as selfish as she seems she didn't want Margaret to know about her illness a truly selfish person would be all me me me. And she also shows her love for Margaret too.

I agree Nancy, I think the chapter where the doctor comes shows Mrs Hale in a much better light as both a person and a parent.

With a few understandable lapses, Mrs Hale is a much less complaining and more selfless person after she becomes seriously ill. Why do you think that's the case?

I think often when people are seriously sick they find depths of character they never knew were there. It's like the petty things in life don't matter any more.

Plus if you feel genuinely very bad you don't have so much energy to whinge. They say that in an emergency situation that if people have the energy to complain they probably aren't in such serious straits as the person who is using their energy just to be able to cope with their pain.

Ceri wrote: "She is wilfully blind about him isn't she."

Or perhaps she is so attracted to him that it scares her and she's trying to find reasons not to give in to her feelings.

Talking about Margaret's attitude towards Thornton... she really frustrates me sometimes. I think all of you are right in the different reasons you have proposed. Margaret is clinging to her dislike of tradesmen because Thornton confuses her and scares her. Here is a man that is a 'tradesman', and yet it trying to educate himself and is respected by Mr. Hale for his intellect and character. He expresses his views well and with logical reasoning, views that pose a threat to Margaret's own way of seeing the world - as we all know she responds with equal strength.

The situation is further complicated by her relations with the Higgins as workers, and also the attraction between Margaret and Thornton. Though she doesn't want to admit it to herself, the two of them are alike in many ways, and I think that instinctively makes Margaret draw back. She senses some sort of tie or link between the two of them, and is frightened of it; again, as we all know she does not respond well to being a romantic object in the eyes of men, and has yet to consider any romantic feelings of her own.

Poor Margaret! I don't defend her wilful, obstinate dislike of a man that deserves better than to be treated as such. But to have so many issues and complications tied up in her feelings towards one man! It must be hard for her.

Tadiana wrote: "I've been inclined to think it's something like [spoilers removed]"

Yes, I thought (view spoiler)[cancer. And I think when people are that sick they often have an instinctive sense that they are really not going to make it. The Victorians knew death much more intimately than we do, and the way Gaskell writes this section feels very believable to me. (hide spoiler)] I think that is what Mrs. Hale senses, and that's why she starts to take stock and change the way she behaves towards her family.

Becca wrote: "Talking about Margaret's attitude towards Thornton... she really frustrates me sometimes."

I love your analysis! My frustration with her just kept building and building. Now, as I'm re-reading, I have more sympathy for the web of misconceptions, fears and prejudices that are trapping both Margaret and Thornton. (view spoiler)[But the feeling of tragedy, the worry that they might not get together, had me practically in despair on my first read! I kept thinking, come on you two, WAKE UP. (hide spoiler)]

Ceri wrote: "I agree Nancy, I think the chapter where the doctor comes shows Mrs Hale in a much better light as both a person and a parent."

She learns to appreciate Margaret anyway.

I'ts too bad it took Mrs Hales illness to make her appreciate Margaret.

Hana wrote: "Becca wrote: "Talking about Margaret's attitude towards Thornton... she really frustrates me sometimes."

I love your analysis! My frustration with her just kept building and building. Now, as I'm ..."

Thank you, Hana, that's very kind! :) I certainly feel sympathy for the rather tangled situation the two are trapped in, but it doesn't stop me being frustrated sometimes with Margaret's continued wilful denial of Thornton's finer characteristics.
(view spoiler)[I know right! They so needed to wake up. Well, Margaret did, the only thing Thornton needed to set him straight was knowing that she hadn't been hugging a new love interest at the train station. You could hardly blame him for thinking that she still didn't care for him, she didn't exactly give him much encouragement until the very end. (hide spoiler)]

Nancy wrote: "I'ts too bad it took Mrs Hales illness to make her appreciate Margaret."

I know, it is quite sad! What I find even worse, though, is that after a very short time Margaret again takes a less prominent space in her mother's heart, as soon as Fred arrives home. I do not begrudge Mrs. Hale her last meeting with her son, but she should have shown more consideration for her daughters feelings, I believe.

Tadiana wrote: "I'm thinking that Fanny may be the exception to my statement that everyone in this novel has both good and bad aspects to their personalities. O.o"
She's the only character I struggle to appreciate! She seems to exist only as a foil to everyone else - an example of how the rising middle class wealth can turn good blood into simpering Ediths. Actually, maybe it's just Fanny - she's inherently self-consumed and not too bright? Or was she over-protected? We only know her mother feels convinced she isn't the strong type and it's useless to try.
I, too, adore the scene where Mr Thornton bravely decides to tell the truth (what all is the truth behind this anyway?) -- that he wishes his mother would like Miss Hale. THAT put mum on alert. And then she goes on to confirm that Margaret would never have him -- even laughing at the thought. I love the way this is acted in the mini-series and I feel the crushing hurt this confirmation must give to him.
It says a little later he is pacing and trying to throw off some annoying thought. I always suspect this is the freshly affirmed acknowledgment that he has no chance with Margaret. Others have thought it might be his worrying over the coming strike.
Hannah says she doesn't know if she likes or dislikes Margaret most. BUT Margaret's condescending airs to her son seem to rule out liking her! I'm convinced that Hannah's dislike for Margaret is firmly grounded on the assumption that Margaret thinks she's above John.
Oh! I was surprised to hear Margaret already defending the masters' decision somewhat to Higgins -- she explains that that the masters must have legitimate reasons for being unable to raise the pay. AND she makes the South seem like no picnic either. I thought she only said these things after the pivotal event of the story.
Someone once suggested that it looked like Thornton may be paying some of Dr Donaldson's bills regarding the Hales. And looking closely, I think this may be the case. The Doctor practically refuses Margaret's payment, saying next time he comes as a friend. And later Mr. Thornton remarks that he's been speaking with the doctor - and the doctor seems to be conferring with him! But I'm not sure...

Oh, and John has told (in some past conversation not narrated) his mother and Fanny that he thinks that Mr Hale may benefit from the connections (future pupils?) at the dinner party. John is being really very thoughtful. I'm having a hard time believing it's solely because of his friendship with Mr. Hale and his particular care in seeing him acclimate to Milton. He's like a fairy godmother, the way he's looking after the Hales! ;)

...John Thornton... fairy godmother... those images really are not mixing well in my head. *facepalm* Why, Trudy, why?!

(I do understand what you mean though, he really is being very kind, probably for a multitude of reasons.)

Can't see Thornton in pink taffeta and a sparkling wand? lol.
Fanny and mum ARE perceptive, though. John is paying quite a bit of attention on these Hales.
I think at this point he's struggling bravely with his attraction, trying (and succeeding for the most part) to be logical about this - but reason isn't going to work in this situation....poor, silly man.

Um... no, no, I really can't. Or at least, I'm trying really hard NOT to... You are just evil. :P

You are right about Fanny and Hannah - but though I agree that John's attraction has something to do with his charity towards the Hale's, I do think he has other reasons too, which we should give him credit for. He truly does like and respect Mr. Hale, and wants to help him because of that - perhaps perceiving what a valuable addition the man could be to Milton society because of his education and his kindness.