The Sword and Laser discussion

I had a hard time understanding the calendrical impact. Then it occured to me that it sounded a bit like atzec belief. If certain rituals are not performed then the sun would not rise and it is the fault of the people and so on. The ritual torture also fits into this.
This makes it easier for me to understand why it is so important to adher to the calendar.

That's true. There are sub-branches of calendrical math that deal with calendars other than our standard gregorian one. But what happens if, for a given day, the math of two different calendars conflict?

If you're looking for other Space Aztecs, consider .

I felt that this story was really more about an allegory for religious influence over civilizations.

Areas of applied mathematics in our universe that utilize a calendar for calculations are not the same as the magic system that Yoon Ha Lee has created. They are both referred to as ‘calendrical mathematics’, but are not the same thing at all.

Regarding Andrew’s question, the simple answer is: All of the hexarchate's advanced technologies are based on their calendar, so introducing a conflicting calendar would cause these technologies to either not function properly or cease functioning entirely. And that would depend on how different the new calendar is from the old one, and how much the particular tech needs to measure/record time in order to function.

If it helps, think of it using clocks instead of calendars. They are the same thing, both just records of time. He just as easily could have called this system ‘clock mathematics’ or ‘time mathematics’. Consider how many of our own various technologies use time in some way. I am not talking about objects that have an embedded clock simply to display time for humans. I mean any device, machine, or computer that needs to be able to observe and/or record time itself in order to function. A microwave oven is a perfect example of something that has a visual clock for our convenience, but really has that clock programming because it uses it to function. And a microwave oven that couldn’t actually utilize its own clock would not be considered functioning properly, even if it still outwardly displays the correct time and can generate microwaves.

Now, how many of these technologies do you think would still work properly if you somehow changed their clock formatting to one that is completely and entirely different. For example let’s say this new clock simply measures time in letters instead of numbers. That is just an example, and it wouldn’t necessarily work on a computer that could use algebra to solve for the letters, but I hope it still illustrates my point. Not so much changing to an incorrect time, but changing the set of rules concerning time, if that makes sense. This is the same effect as switching to a heretical calendar in the book. Computers cannot simply adapt to changes in logic like this. Even a single incredibly small rule change, like one minute now equals 61 seconds, can have a huge impact. If you are old enough, remember the chaos from the Y2K bug. Some technologies would be entirely unaffected, but so many others could be completely nonfunctional. Generally the more advanced the tech, the more likely it is that it would be affected, and to a greater degree.

If this was forced upon us, our whole civilization would contract considerably simply because of how much we rely on our technology, and everything we’ve built is designed around our 00:00 clocks. How difficult would it be to now go back and change and reprogram everything in the world to work again using the new AA:AA clock? We wouldn’t be able to develop any new alternative tech because we would first have to rebuild the world in order to continue to simply survive.

Sooner or later some leader would come to the conclusion that it would just be easier to start killing anyone and everyone who starts using a different clock than ours. That is the part where the torture and ritual sacrifice comes in. That isn’t what makes calendrical math work, it is just a tool used to keep the population in line. It is using routine violence as a regular reminder for everyone under hexarchate rule to continue using the hexarchate calendar because all the hexarchate’s tech was designed using that calendar. This happened because the tech created with that calendar is essentially magically-infused (with exotic effects).

If you built a microwave that is otherwise normal but instead uses the letter-based time clock in my example above, and it turns out that microwave now not only cooks your food but also spontaneously makes a fork appear in your hand as well, then chances are you will start using that letter-based clock programming in all your future inventions that utilize time, regardless of whether they could use a fork. This is what happened after the phenomenon was first discovered. Using that clock in subsequent inventions didn’t make them also generate magic forks, but did still create other magical side effects. After seeing this, everyone obviously started using that same clock in their inventions too, and it spread from there. The clock magic that made the fork appear is calendrical mathematics, and the fork appearing is an exotic effect. The hexarchate simply has a lot of this magic-based tech already invented and built based on this calendar, and they really just want to keep using it.

Excellent TED talk. 👍🏻

Yeah, you can imagine how I felt when I had the realization that the people who are the most confused by this book are probably going to be the same people who also skip past my explanation because it is too long.

Matt wrote: "Yeah, you can imagine how I felt when I had the realization that the people who are the most confused by this book are probably going to be the same people who also skip past my explanation because it is too long. "

Where's the TL;DR ?

;-)

This is a waaay better explanation than anything in the book - I think I would have enjoyed the book a lot more if it had something like this in it to help me wrap my head around the basic concepts!

Thanks, Matt!

Great comment, matt! I have now finished the book and it was huge letdown for me, that the whole rembrance stuff was Not Important to the calendar AT all and just there, like matt Said to keep the Population in line.

Just today I was reading about the French Revolution and how the revolutionaries tried to introduce new decimal measurements for everything. Some of it stuck - like the metric system - but they also tried to introduce decimal time (10 hours to a day, 100 minutes to an hour, 100 seconds to a minute), which didn’t stick. And a new calendar, which lasted a few years. It’s a good real-life example of a political attempt to impose an ideology on the measurement of time. And they certainly guillotined enough people...
The Wikipedia article is worth checking out I think: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenc...

Kiwi, if you allow my words to turn this book into a disappointment for you, then they inadvertently become similar to population control as well. If the book itself didn’t explain things well enough, then you still have the option to fill in the blanks with any other explanation that allows you to enjoy the book the most.


Ruth, you are further back in history compared to where I made similar connections myself. For me it was still the era of computers and their use of binary and hexadecimal. And then suddenly, wait a minute, 'metric vs imperial', 'coke vs pepsi', and 'hexadecimal vs decimal' are all the exact same as 'hexarchate vs heretics'! So although I’m generally adverse to History (the subject), I will step into your rabbit hole.

Ruth wrote: "This is a waaay better explanation than anything in the book - I think I would have enjoyed the book a lot more if it had something like this in it to help me wrap my head around the basic concepts!"

Yes, great explanation by Matt! Now if the author had his skill it would have been a way better book.

Matt, the thing with the Rembrance was in the book and i felt a huge letdown when i read that part. Actually my own explanations AT the beginning of the book were, in my opinion :), a lot more complicated (and more gruesome) than the ones given in the book. I like your Comment as it is well written. ;)

Matt wrote: "Areas of applied mathematics in our universe that utilize a calendar for calculations are not the same as the magic system that Yoon Ha Lee has created. They are both referred to as ‘calendrical ma..."

this whole post borders on calendrial heresy!

Because our cover is now blown and we may get annexed, thanks Bob, I’ll just leave this on the chalkboard before I go:


if calendars = clocks = time

and reality = [space][time] = 3D x D4 = mathematics

then calendar mathematics = anything is possible

if we all believe the same reality

There once was a man from Nantucket
Who said, “Calendar heretics can suck it!”
He invaded her mind
And rewound the time
Till his foes were mopped into buckets.

We of the faction Liozh
take umbrage at your hideous prose
you're just a hater.
Our calendar's greater
and your whole stinking empire just blows

Niiice. 😂

Matt set the bar high with his excellent scientific explanation. Trike and I raised it using literature's highest form of poetry, the Limerick.

You are all welcome

:-)


;-)

The ol' poetry refraction bomb. Ancient technology, but clearly still used in modern times. They use them in the book at several points as well, but smaller ones like grenades.

With apologies to Isaac Asimov...

Liozh, an unfortunate faction
Faced plenty of fears of redaction
Forced from what would be
The Hexarchy
For the sake of heretical action

[insert applause gif here]
👏🏼📆👏🏼

Good one :-)

look what you started Trike.

I’m a change agent.

For the originating "math poem" I merely simplified things, and only because I guessed Kiwi’s native tongue is German. From the capitalizations in the post thanking me for my original time and effort.

Enjoy your sandbox, I have legs.

If anyone is wondering, the reason I said "apologies to Isaac Asimov" is that I was inspired by a limerick he made famous, and took some structure from it:

The bustard's an exquisite fowl
With minimal reason to growl
He escapes what would be
Illegitimacy
By grace of a fortunate vowel.

This was the winner of a contest judged by Asimov, written by George D. Vaill. It's said that Asimov was "limerick'd out" before reading that one. Perhaps Vaill's calendrical timing was good.

This thread is great :D

I had an automatic way of understanding how the differing calendars worked that I didn't know how to properly translate until I reread the first few chapters after finishing, and realised that my brain took a step in imagining the fortresses as computers (sort of).

I have no idea why I my mind worked this way, or if it is in any way 'right' but it allowed me to understand what was happening in the book. I saw the formations sort of like line commands (I don't know if I'm using the right terms here) that would tell the 'computer' how to respond, such as protecting the kel from various weapons effects. Now, if everyone is using the same system, the code would have predictable reactions, but what if the fortress has been switched to a different operating system? The response to the formations would be unpredictable and a person would have to make some clever adjustments, like Cheris does.

This isn't a perfect translation of how my brain saw things, and my computer knowledge is admittedly very poor, but maybe this makes sense to other people. It certainly meant I never scratched my head over the effects of calendars.

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "I had an automatic way of understanding how the differing calendars worked that I didn't know how to properly translate until I reread the first few chapters after finishing, and realised that my b..."

Sounds plausible to me. I view tech like this as hacking reality.