J.D. Robb discussion

(view spoiler)[ So during the holidays on Facebook, Laura was talking about Conspiracy in Death and the scene that made it, in my opinion, the most controversial book in the entire series. As a result, that scene has caused a lot of debate and divide over whether Whitney and Tibble were in the wrong to do what they did to Eve. Me and other people were of the opinion that they were in the wrong, and some of you might feel otherwise. As a result, I think Conspiracy in Death is #1 in the most controversial books.

Another book that I thought was controversial was Brotherhood. When that book came out, some people were very very angry at how the female victims were treated in the book and as a result there was a big debate over whether or not the female victims handled things the wrong way, and I think they did. I think had they have gone to Eve with her reputation as a cop that New York could trust, things would have been handle differently, but they didn't and as a result it bit them in the ass and they have to suffer the consequences.

Another one that was controversial but I may need to re-read that book is Divided and Roarke handled the HSO debacle in the end. Apparently some people were pretty angry over his usage of Scary Roarke and others thought he wasn't being scary enough, but the way I see it, his Scary Roarke was going a little too far for Eve to handle especially since it hit a little to close to home for her. (hide spoiler)]

Those are my picks, I would love to hear your thoughts on this and I hope that we can at least keep the conversation to an adult level.

FYI, the books discussed in the spoiler are:

1. Conspiracy in Death
2. Brotherhood in Death
3. Divided in Death

If you’ve read those three, it’s safe to open the spoiler. However, in my opinion, there isn’t anything spoilerish in the message.

Jonetta wrote: "FYI, the books discussed in the spoiler are:

1. Conspiracy in Death
2. Brotherhood in Death
3. Divided in Death

If you’ve read those three, it’s safe t..."

Yeah I didn't know if I was spoiling anything, my apologies.

No need to apologize, Seth! If you’re unsure, use the spoiler feature. Very grateful you did.

Interesting discussion. I will jump on when I get home from work. I want to clarify what you mean by controversial. I'm guessing that you mean controversial to the story not, necessarily, whether it would happen in real life? Correct?

Sharon wrote: "Interesting discussion. I will jump on when I get home from work. I want to clarify what you mean by controversial. I'm guessing that you mean controversial to the story not, necessarily, whether i..."

Yeah exactly.

You know this is a very interesting topic. I always really enjoyed Conspiracy and honestly didn't think they were wrong for (view spoiler)[Taking her badge (hide spoiler)] as it was protocol. It made for a interesting look at Eve having to deal with being something besides a cop but she also took the law in her hands if you think about it too.

So she stepped outside the lines

SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "You know this is a very interesting topic. I always really enjoyed Conspiracy and honestly didn't think they were wrong for [spoilers removed] as it was protocol. It made for a interesting look at ..."

See if it were me writing that thing, I probably would've made her resign in protest and see how they would've handled her not being a cop out of her own free will. And I guarantee you had Feeney and Peabody found that out they probably would have followed suit.

Seth wrote: "SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "You know this is a very interesting topic. I always really enjoyed Conspiracy and honestly didn't think they were wrong for [spoilers removed] as it was protocol. ..."

Yeah but that wouldn't fit the character to me. She was someone who always wanted to be a cop so her quitting wouldn't fit.

Yeah but in my opinion, sometimes you got to play a little hardball in order to make a point. I think Eve resigning would have sent Whitney and Tibble a message that she did not agree with their accusations of her killing Bowers, and if they didn't have a choice, she would have rebutted with "Everyone has a choice and this is my choice, I quit."

Now yes she would probably still fall apart when she got back to the mansion, but I guarantee you they wouldn't have lasted a day without her and probably would have held their nose and swept things under the rug. YES I KNOW THAT'S NOT WHITNEY AND TIBBLE'S CHARACTER, BUT HEAR ME OUT!!! You think they would have handled Eve quitting? I don't think they would have taken it well, they probably would have made some compromises in order to get her to stay.

Just remember, when you quit, you lose all those rights afforded you while you’re suspended. It’s over, and not necessarily Whitney or Tibble’s call about you being rehired. I would NEVER quit in those circumstances. It’s better to fight from within than from the outside. It rarely works well.

And this is exactly why I consider it the most controversial book in the series, just some people didn't agree with Eve's badge being taken and that's an opinion that I'm sticking with and as a result I don't really read that book anymore, nor do I read Loyalty because I think that's a bad book in general and just go to Witness. Yeah I know it's skipping, but if I'm not going to like a book I ain't gonna read it.

I refuse to be an adult!!! 😝 And just gonna say conspiracy death book is my favorite... well one of them... I think maybe we need to define controversial. I didn’t think conspiracy was controversial ... I might need to re-read those three. I thought the one where she had Roark delete this killer’s kill me soon card. I thought that was controversial cuz she crossed a line there ... she went against one of her own rules that to me is controversial ... maybe just me. So lemme ask what u mean by controversy

Ladyhawke wrote: "I refuse to be an adult!!! 😝 And just gonna say conspiracy death book is my favorite... well one of them... I think maybe we need to define controversial. I didn’t think conspiracy was controversia..."

Like what you said, because you didn't agree with how Eve handled things in Creation and probably may have a few people who might dispute your opinion. Personally, I think the fact that he went nearly 30 years of killing women, getting away with it and attempting to kill Eve, might have set her off in a fit of revenge. Yes revenge ain't a way to go, but messing with someone's week off, making her work without any sleep, that'd probably piss me off.

.. I know the dude needed to die... but a bunch of them need to . That’s what I meant by what do u call controversial ... just my opinion now don’t hate me!!!

I think eve in conspiracy in death needed her badge taken. The in death series is very police procedural. She had to have her badge taken if it was going to follow that line. (As a someone who works for the county and I’ve been suspended the take all of your ids and cards , cars computer tablet phone... and yeah they should cuz the whole time I was suspended I was thinking of ways to burn down the building) I still work for the county 🙃 Now brotherhood was kinda gruesome but not controversial. Divided kinda was cuz of the FBI agents .... but again why do u say controversial ? Are u talking about what books kicked up the most dust??

To answer your question yes, I'm talking about what kicked up the most dust. And yes, your opinion is your opinion and I respect it, but the bottom line is I'm not going to stand by a book that I don't agree with, I think things should have been handled differently with Conspiracy.

Now in terms of Divided, Eve and Roarke were mostly at odds over Roarke wanting deadly retribution to the HSO agents who listened to her being raped, but after Eve practically got down on her knees and begged him not to, Roarke felt he had no other choice but to concede and not go through with his revenge. Some people thought he was being weakness as a result. But I think had he gone through with it, that marriage would not have made it to year two.

I, too, loved Conspiracy. Whether I agreed or not with Tibble and Whitney’s decision, Nora wrote Eve’s reaction true to the character we came to know and understand. If she had quit, I wouldn’t have believed the story, no matter my opinion of the right thing to do.

Seth, I get how you found it controversial because you didn’t think it was right that Eve lost her badge. It felt realistic to me, whether I liked it or not so for me there was no controversy. Anger, yes, as it felt so unfair. But in the real world, she would have been placed on administrative leave at best, suspended without pay another possibility.

You get to feel what you feel.

I don't see Conspiracy as controversial it is real life. To me this is one of the biggest Eve character development stories in the series. We see a woman who had nothing, had a crappy childhood, then made it to the best murder cop in the NYPSD only to have everything taken from her and be nothing again (in her mind).

She wallows in self pity but pulls herself up and fights back. What a woman in my opinion. Personally I would have taken a security position with Roarke and not fight that battle. However, Roarke knows her and knows what makes her tick. I love that he was right there with her as well as the rest of her team. I love this book.

I'll give you guys credit, at least you're respecting my opinion in that Conspiracy is my least favorite in the series. Now my all-time favorite would have to be Celebrity, because it's more of a quieter book of the Post-Promises era of the In Death series.

You will always find respect for differing views here, Seth! Or at least we try hard at it☺️

Seth wrote: "I'll give you guys credit, at least you're respecting my opinion in that Conspiracy is my least favorite in the series. Now my all-time favorite would have to be Celebrity, because it's more of a q..."

I love having different opinions. It gives me something to think about.

Gosh...!!! What about ny to Dallas?!?!

Ladyhawke wrote: "Gosh...!!! What about ny to Dallas?!?!"

That is one of my top 5 favorites. It is so emotional.

Ladyhawke wrote: "Gosh...!!! What about ny to Dallas?!?!"

Never read it, don't want to.

🥺 I’d ask why but seems like you’ve made up your mind. It’s pretty good... but to me that one kicks up the most dust.

For me the most controversial are Origin in Death, Innocence in Death and Treachery in Death.
(view spoiler)[ Origin because of the cloning issue. Is cloning right or wrong, do clones have free will, etc. Innocence because of having a YOUNG child killer and Treachery because the bad guys are the people the public should be able to trust. (hide spoiler)]

Maggie wrote: "For me the most controversial are Origin in Death, Innocence in Death and Treachery in Death.
[spoilers removed]"

Yeah but compared to Conspiracy, I thought Treachery was the better book of the two.

Seth wrote: "Ladyhawke wrote: "Gosh...!!! What about ny to Dallas?!?!"

Never read it, don't want to."

Never read it??!! You offended my OCD, list-making, read-books-in-order heart. :( (Good thing that's not all there is. haha) But I will intrude and question why you don't want to? Just because I'm curious.

NY to Dallas, however, is one of my least favorite of the series. On a similar level, I skip it when I reread the series. But I did feel like it showed a huge amount of emotional development and plot bombs. I can see why and how it has its place in the series. But it's hard for me to listen to. Tough subject matter. Plus.... it still annoys me that it isn't an "In death" title.

Conspiracy actually is one of my favorites. Like those above, it felt true to Eve's character, to me, to have her have to give up her badge. I was outraged, of course. But, I understand what I see as the necessity of it.

Brotherhood... I would say that would be a top contender for a controversial book. It wasn't easy to listen to, and I actually skip over some of those parts when I re-listen to it. (view spoiler)[ I can definitely see some people being angry about how the female victims were treated -- so difficult when the victims and killer(s) are the same. (reminds me of Origin) I actually agree with Eve's take and opinion of justice. To me, taking revenge/punishment into one's hands doesn't produce the results desired, and often doesn't heal oneself. But such a painful situation, especially with the youngest committing suicide. I could see readers being upset, thus making it controversial. (hide spoiler)]

Ladyhawke, I would agree with Creation being a controversial one, in that I felt that Eve's actions did not seem in line with her character. (view spoiler)[ Honestly, I agree with Roarke deleting his self termination agreement (though, really, why was it included in the law that self termination is allowed despite pending criminal charges?!). The jerk deserved a long, suffering life in prison!!
However, it seemed out of character to me, because how many other criminals have died during capture and she didn't pull strings for them to live longer. It just seemed like a big cross of her line. I don't know. I see both sides, which is probably why it is a debatable book. (hide spoiler)]

I don't see much up for debate for Divided. The whole book in general felt a bit far reaching to me. But, it's also been a while since I listened to it, so I don't remember Scary Roarke's part.

Hannah wrote: Never read it??!! You offended my OCD, list-making, read-books-in-order heart. :( (Good thing that's not all there is. haha) But I will intrude and question why you don't want to? Just because I'm curious.

Well I figure go ahead and let the cat out of the bag and say that I actually spoiled myself and listened to the very end of the book instead of the entire book. Heard the ending and thought to myself, I'm not dealing with this book and decided to skip straight to Celebrity.

Also I don't know your stances on fanfiction over here, (I know Nora has actually softened her stance on it), but I gotta confess and say that I actually did write a fanfic where Eve did resign during Conspiracy and defected to another law enforcement agency. Not a popular thing to do, but the losing her badge part was just driving me crazy and I had to write something to vent out some frustrations.

I'll tell you another book I find controversial: Possession in Death and I am of the opinion that I don't even consider it cannon.

Jonetta wrote: "I, too, loved Conspiracy. Whether I agreed or not with Tibble and Whitney’s decision, Nora wrote Eve’s reaction true to the character we came to know and understand. If she had quit, I wouldn’t hav..."

Exactly! As one who spent 28 years in law enforcement, they take your badge and weapon and place you on leave (sometimes with pay, sometimes without) until the investigation is completed. In this case, the internal investigation couldn’t conclude until the murder investigation was completed. If she had quit while under investigation for murder, along with all the other allegations that psycho said on TV, she would never have gotten another job in LE.

Dawn wrote: Exactly! As one who spent 28 years in law enforcement, they take your badge and weapon and place you on leave (sometimes with pay, sometimes without) until the investigation is completed. In this case, the internal investigation couldn’t conclude until the murder investigation was completed. If she had quit while under investigation for murder, along with all the other allegations that psycho said on TV, she would never have gotten another job in LE.

Well what about this, I was talking with another member from the old indeath.net fansite and he/she had brought up another idea of playing Hardball with Whitney and Tibble. Instead of making Eve resign, have Feeney start a stop work protest until the higher ups caved and let Eve back in.

Also another idea was what if at the end of the book, Eve made Whitney and Tibble wait for her answer on whether she wanted back in or not, have them wait for three days and then take it back as a form of punishment to Whitney and Tibble.

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse and obviously what happened in the book, happened, but I do have to ask these questions in order to have these conversations. But probably knowing Nora, she'd probably tell me that as a writer you can't please everybody and obviously I wasn't pleased with Conspiracy.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Eve wouldn't have gone along with the idea of 'stop work' or try to get them to 'cave' - she a rule follower and there's a murder to solve. She goes through agony when Roarke 'bends' one to help her solve a case (although she's become a bit more flexible in the later books). And why 'punish' Whitney & Tibble - they're doing their job and she respects them. She was blindsided by this - so deep in her work and not paying attention to the politics. I think a part of the shock/pain was her concern that 'they' (Feney, etc) might believe this of her.

I didn't have any trouble with the three books first mentioned - although parts of Brotherhood in Death were a bit graphic. The book I had difficulty with was Devoted in Death. Too violent for me.

Yeah and I bet you that neither Feeney nor Peabody or even Baxter would have gave a crap if she did agree or not. Also doing their job my ass, both Whitney and Tibble did what they did just to basically cover their asses.

Seth wrote: "Dawn wrote: Exactly! As one who spent 28 years in law enforcement, they take your badge and weapon and place you on leave (sometimes with pay, sometimes without) until the investigation is complete..."

I guess the point both Dawn and I were trying to make is what Nora wrote was true to what Eve would do. And, in real life? Eve would have ended her career if she’d done what you suggested. Did it feel unfair to Eve? Of course it did but that’s also real life. If she’d quit, or threatened to do so, I would have been disappointed because that’s not how I believed her to be wired as Nora has crafted the character. I’d be as upset as you are, Seth, because it wouldn’t ring authentic. It’s not about what you or I might do. It’s what would Eve do...just what she did.

Jonetta wrote: "Seth wrote: "Dawn wrote: Exactly! As one who spent 28 years in law enforcement, they take your badge and weapon and place you on leave (sometimes with pay, sometimes without) until the investigatio..."

I figure use this opportunity to extend an apology to MDY for my comments last night, they were out of line and uncalled for and I am sincerely sorry for it.

You know I have to say after thought I would have to say Creation was very controversial. I mean that was one I was actually shocked that she made that choice even as I felt it was just. But I think this is what makes me feel she can be a hypocrite in some of her lines even as she is about justice.

SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "You know I have to say after thought I would have to say Creation was very controversial. I mean that was one I was actually shocked that she made that choice even as I felt it was just. But I thin..."

Well like I said, I think the fact that Lowell pretty much interrupted Eve's week off, made her work without virtually any sleep and almost killed her, it more than likely made her lose judgement. Personally if I were in her situation, I'd probably do the same thing because that situation would've pissed me off.

Seth wrote: "SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "You know I have to say after thought I would have to say Creation was very controversial. I mean that was one I was actually shocked that she made that choice even..."

The thing is I don't think that is excuse. I do like that she did it as well but again her lines move when she wants them too. So I think for me that is what made it controversial. This was a huge thing for her character.

SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "Seth wrote: "SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "You know I have to say after thought I would have to say Creation was very controversial. I mean that was one I was actually shocked that she made tha..."

What would you rather have happen then, have them fight this in court and give Lowell some opportunity to sneak in some cyanide?

Seth wrote: "SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "Seth wrote: "SB*needs low angst books* wrote: "You know I have to say after thought I would have to say Creation was very controversial. I mean that was one I was ..."

No I don't have a alternative. This is about controversy and that was a controversial moment to me. It was one that surprised me. And I said that I didn't disagree with what she did. It was just controversial due to her character. But I also understand her decision to do it was about justice for the victims.

Jonetta wrote:I guess the point both Dawn and I were trying to make is what Nora wrote was true to what Eve would do. And, in real life? Eve would have ended her career if she’d done what you suggested. Did it feel unfair to Eve? Of course it did but that’s also real life. If she’d quit, or threatened to do so, I would have been disappointed because that’s not how I believed her to be wired as Nora has crafted the character. I’d be as upset as you are, Seth, because it wouldn’t ring authentic. It’s not about what you or I might do. It’s what would Eve do...just what she did.

One more point I'm going to make on this subject, the fact that some political hardball was not played during Eve's suspension was what turned me off from this book. I think her squad and Feeney's squad should have been more forceful in their disagreement with Whitney and Tibble's decision, whether it be with a "stop work" protest or a picketing strike. Yes there probably would've been some fallout between both parties and maybe some heads would've rolled, but that's the nature of the beast. Politics can create friends and foes, no matter who it is.

Now obviously this one of those debates where we are not going to agree and I apologize that my opinions might have either discomforted or offended you all. I know Conspiracy is a favorite for some of you, but it just ain't mine and nothing will change my mind on that.

Just a few cent I want to throw in ... I didn’t care for that bit either. It was superfluous we didn’t know he had a “end my life card” til the end of the book. And it seemed off to me that she asked Roarke to get rid of it. That seemed out of character for me. There was no build up or angst about it.

As for that suspension bit I have to agree to disagree with Seth I thought that fit well with her suspension. eve wasn’t fired she wasn’t really penalized ... she was really given administrative leave like normal. I was just detrimental to her because she lives the job...

Sorry bout the end I couldn’t help my self

Ladyhawke wrote: "Just a few cent I want to throw in ... I didn’t care for that bit either. It was superfluous we didn’t know he had a “end my life card” til the end of the book. And it seemed off to me that she ask..."

If it was Administrative Leave, a lot of headaches would have been saved had she'd have been told that in the first place, but they didn't and she had to take it the hard way by almost committing suicide via freezing to death combined with the potential of her running out on Roarke had she not had the idea of beating up a droid. Those reasons alone are why I never liked the book because that stuff could have happened and I don't think any of us could've handled it well.

BTW this ain't an attack on any opinions, I'm just trying to make a point.