Reading the 20th Century discussion

Catch-22 by Joseph Heller is our WW2 related Mod Read for April 2019


This discussion will open in April 2019, or thereabouts

Here's to wonderful discussion about a classic 20th Century novel.

Here's a Guardian article about the book....

In 1962, writing in the Observer, Kenneth Tynan saluted Catch-22 as “the most striking debut in American fiction since Catcher in the Rye.” Within a year, he had been joined, in a chorus of praise, by writers as various as Harper Lee, Norman Mailer and Graham Greene. More than 50 years later, this brilliant novel still holds an unforgettable comic grip on the reader.

Rest here....

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

Here's the book's blurb...

The novel is set during World War II, from 1942 to 1944. It mainly follows the life of Captain John Yossarian, a U.S. Army Air Forces B-25 bombardier. Most of the events in the book occur while the fictional 256th Squadron is based on the island of Pianosa, in the Mediterranean Sea, west of Italy. The novel looks into the experiences of Yossarian and the other airmen in the camp, who attempt to maintain their sanity while fulfilling their service requirements so that they may return home.

It's a day early however that does give us one day of the weekend to post any preliminary thoughts about Catch-22 by Joseph Heller (our WW2 related Mod Read for April 2019).

I will be starting Catch-22 this very day, the first time I have read it since the 1970s when I was a teenager. I loved it then and am interested to see how I react all these decades later. It remains firmly embedded in our cultural landscape, but will it still feel fresh and funny? I remember roaring with laughter last time I read it.

I am listening to this on Audible at the moment. I will hold my thoughts until I have finished, but I have never read it before.

I've started rereading this - like you, Nigeyb, I read it in the 1970s as a teenager. I have a feeling I may have reread it, but if so it was many years ago.

I'm not very far in as yet and, while I'm enjoying the brilliant one-liners, I'm finding it slightly heavy-going as yet.

I liked this line: "The Texan turned out to be good-natured, generous and likable. In three days no one could stand him."

It certainly isn't politically correct. I am hoping there is a female character who isn't going to be groped, but I won't hold my breath!

Yes, certainly a tad unreconstructed but enjoyable so far on its own terms.


I laughed out loud at the descriptions of the various ways Yossarian censors letters from the rank and file.

I'm now into the section where he's out of hospital and it's a little confusing keeping track of the various characters, however hoping it all becomes a bit clearer through familiarity, or that it's not necessary to remember who is who.

I had heard it was confusing, but am finding the Audible version easy to follow, and I like the narrator (Trevor White - I have no idea who he is, but he is doing a good job).

There are a number of good one liners. I can't say I find it funny, as such, but parts are amusing. I am interested by the way that the war does not seem to include the 'enemy' as such. Yossarian's issues are with the army, that he is a part of, and it is they he thinks are trying to kill him.

Susan mentioned to me she could see parallels with M*A*S*H and I agree - both the books, the film and the TV series. Similar manic energy and humour. Well, what I can recall anyway.

Also getting reminded of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I wonder whether that would be as good to reread all these decades later?

I can definitely see similarities with M*A*S*H* - the whole atmosphere, and the way Hawkeye and Trapper John/ BJ despised the self-righteous Frank.

Yep, totally agree with the last two messages.

Read Yossarian's tale a while ago and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Now I'm wondering how the MASH books stand up. Did the books predate the film? I always assumed so.

I loved the TV series too, though I seem to remember it lost its way towards the end - it jumped the shark as we'd say these days

My brother watched MASH, but, although I caught bits of it, I can't say I really know much about it. It is interesting that Catch-22 seems to feel more as though it is set in a later conflict, rather than WWII.

For years I had it in my head it was about Vietnam despite have actually read it (albeit as a 14/15 year old). In fact I think it was you that put me right!

Really, I don't remember that?! I do think Catch-22 has the same kind of feel of hopelessness against authority and general, ironic humour. It also had more female characters - I know Catch-22 was written some years ago, but the general attitude towards women is more than a little uncomfortable.

The laddish culture is an integral part of the book and I think it is not as dated in the environment it is set as we would hope.

That is a pretty depressing thought, Val...

Has anyone come across anything with similar humour that is less laddish/sexist? I found the same attitudes when revisiting early episodes of M*A*S*H*.

There's certainly an inevitability of some casual sexism in male dominated institutions and the US Army of WW2 must have been almost exclusively male, with most of the rank and file being very young too, which makes women and sex a major preoccupation. I would imagine things have improved quite a bit since the 1940s but, as Val suggests, it probably still persists.

Judy, I can't think of anything (e.g. Army or war based) with similar humour that is less laddish. I'll keep pondering.

I'm just reading the section with Clevinger being disciplined by the Major. Like M*A*S*H, the book seems to hold a mirror up to the insanity and absurdity of war by exaggerating these elements not least the Catch-22s that stymy anyone sane enough to want to escape at the earliest opportunity. Overall I'm really enjoying this reread.

I also just discovered that Lieutenant Scheisskopf's name is German for “shithead”.

Lol...you sure that Lieutenant shouldn't then be read as
" Loo-tendant"? - makes you think

Picked up a copy of Closing Time by Mr Heller, which apparently is about some of the characters later on in old- age, but haven't read it as yet. Just wondering if anyone has read it and whether it would be a good idea to actually bother to do so.
Anyone able to help me out?

I read about half of this when I was in my 20s but put it down about half way through and never picked it up again. I still have that copy so i'm aiming to get all the way to the end this time...

Sorry Ian, I can't help you but would be very interested to discover what you make of it, if you take the plunge

I am currently immersed in the chapter on Major Major. Possibly my favourite so far.


As I progress I am enjoying this book more and more.

Is anyone in the John, Milton?


What a chapter- hilarious 😂

Ian wrote: "Lol...you sure that Lieutenant shouldn't then be read as
" Loo-tendant"? - makes you think

Picked up a copy of Closing Time by Mr Heller, which apparently is about some of the characters later on..."

I had a bash at it a few years back, it's nowhere near as bad as people claimed at the time it was released but it's not Catch-22 either. I think Catch-22 is a love it or hate it classic, Closing Time was a decent enough book that suffered by comparison.

CQM wrote: "Closing Time was a decent enough book that suffered by comparison"


Thanks CQM - that's very helpful

CQM wrote: "I think Catch-22 is a love it or hate it classic"

Spot on CQM.

I can now confirm I am firmly in the "love it" camp but for anyone with little tolerance for absurdist, somewhat freeform, riffing on the war is madness motif, it probably gets trying fast.

I don't remember anything about the film however, as I work through this book, I am wondering how on earth a film adaptation could work as a cinematic experience.

Has anyone got a clear recollection of the film?

How successful is it?

Nigeyb wrote: "I don't remember anything about the film however, as I work through this book, I am wondering how on earth a film adaptation could work as a cinematic experience.

Has anyone got a clear recollect..."

It's horribly disjointed but with a cracking cast. It passes the time if you set your sights fairly low.
I just noticed there's a new adaption about to be released.

CQM wrote: "It's horribly disjointed but with a cracking cast. It passes the time if you set your sights fairly low."

You're not really selling it to me CQM!

CQM wrote: "I just noticed there's a new adaption about to be released"

Interesting. And somewhat suprising.

I'm still mulling over how to turn it into a coherent and compelling cinematic adapation

I have just read the section in which Yossarian gets his medal.

The section about the enigmatic Major de Coverley also made me laugh. Not least how both the Germans and the Americans are trying to find how who he is as he always appears in photos of teh victorious taking of new cities and territory.

Major de Coverley is revered and feared by the men. They are afraid to ask his first name, even though all he does is play horseshoes and rent apartments for the officers in cities taken by American forces.

Milo Minderbinder has now also been properly introduced. His ability to souce the best food is a thing of beauty.

Interesting how many of the seemingly loose strands are starting to tie up.

I posted about the new Hulu/Channel 4 mini-series adaptation starring George Clooney a little while back - showing in May in the US, but no screening date yet for the UK.

This link includes a trailer:
https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/53428...

Good news that it's going to be shown on Channel 4. I hope it's a good adaptation.


Thanks Judy, my unreliable memory does echo with the notion that you had already mentioned this self same news once before.

Haha, I don't think we can all be expected to remember every previous discussion. :)

Nigeyb wrote: "I don't remember anything about the film however, as I work through this book, I am wondering how on earth a film adaptation could work as a cinematic experience.

Has anyone got a clear recollect..."

I liked it. Got me to read the book. Besides, how wrong can you go with Alan Arkin?

Alan Arkin is great

Chapter 15: the horror of trying to evade anti-aircraft flak. What a superb piece of writing. It really conveys the horror and terror of the experience 😱. And, yet, it still manages to be comedic too

This book is just getting better and better. So glad to be rereading it after all these years.

Chapter 19: Colonel Cathcart discussing having a prayer prior to missions with the chaplain is another mirthsome chapter 😂

I just noticed Susan's two star rating and so went to read her review. I recommend you do the same....


https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...


I was sorry to discover Susan didn't enjoy it as much as I am so far.

Susan makes a good pont about the sexism. I heartily agree that the depiction of male/female relations and the objectification of women jars to the modern eye however I think it was probably quite an accurate portrayal of young enlisted men in WW2.

If you don't find Catch-22 blackly funny then what are you left with?

I'm about halfway through and with each passing chapter, and growing familiarity with the large cast of idiosyncratic characters, getting more and more engrossed and enthralled. Definitely a four or five star read based on the first half of the book.

Nigeyb wrote: "I just noticed Susan's two star rating and so went to read her review. I recommend you do the same....


https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Yes. I think you have summed that up right. If you don't find it funny, then what are you left with?

I was sorry to discover Susan didn't enjo..."

Jill wrote: "Yes. I think you have summed that up right. If you don't find it funny, then what are you left with?"


Although, answering my own question Jill, I do think it's also incredibly well written and very imaginative.

It must have taken Heller years to construct and then to actually write.

As I progress through the book I realise it is all going to tie together - plot strands that seem to have been abandoned come back into play eventually.

I also really like the multi-perspective, so we get to understand things from each character's perspective.

I'd really like to find out more about how he researched it, and how he went about writing it.

Chapter 21: the moaning incident during the briefing had me chuckling too 🤩

I haven't updated my review from my first reading many years ago yet (1st January 2010 just means some time before I joined Goodreads), but I do still think that making war seem silly and pointless is a valid pacifist strategy. I don't think we are supposed to think that abusing women or bombing innocent civilians because they are not protected by the occupiers anti-aircraft defences are acceptable, but that they are results of putting men in the unacceptable situation.

The message got utterly lost for me, I'm afraid, Val - although I wasn't going to post my review, as I couldn't find anything positive to write.

Nigeyb wrote: "Jill wrote: "Yes. I think you have summed that up right. If you don't find it funny, then what are you left with?"


Although, answering my own question Jill, I do think it's also incredibly well w..."

He was in the Army Air Corps and flew 60 missions himself - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_... - although he did sit and think about the story a lot - 8 years.

Looks like it was a bigger hit in Britain than in America originally although my hometown paper called it the "best American novel in years". It probably took the release of the movie to make the book a success here. It probably helped that the movie didn't come out until there was a big anti-war movement.

He could have made the message more explicit, but I think that is what he is intending us to get from the book. It does not seem to have got across to those I think it was aimed at however, so I hesitate to say you are in good company but you are with the majority. I could, of course, being reading more into the book than it contains.

Val wrote: "I could, of course, being reading more into the book than it contains."


I think your comments are spot on Val. Its core paradox – that insanity is sanity – informs everything. Heller ensures madness runs through every scene, and absurdity informs every character. I agree, it all feels like pitch perfect anti-war satire. I'm curious to know where the second half of the book will go - ramping up the comedy and absurdity, or into something more serious, or something darker. I have no recollection of the plot from original read as a kid in the 70s.


Jan C wrote: "Looks like it was a bigger hit in Britain than in America originally although my hometown paper called it the "best American novel in years". It probably took the release of the movie to make the book a success here. It probably helped that the movie didn't come out until there was a big anti-war movement"

Thanks Jan. I must say I'm quite surprised. I assumed it would be more popular in the US. I can't really recall how it fared here as I was so young but my impression is that it was a best seller for many years.

I do know that globally it has sold in excess of 10 million copies which is quite extraordinary.

I also know Heller was frustrated about not being able to write another novel that 'caught' readers like Catch 22. However that's because he'd set the bar so high, and Catch 22 is a powerful read: tragic, hilarious, anarchic, nihilistic, often in the same paragraph.

I haven't got very far with my reread, but have just reached one of the most famous passages - the part where the saying "Catch 22" is explained and where we hear that Appleby has flies in his eyes - that's why he can't see them. I remember my sister and me both using this as a quote for a while after we read the book in the 70s.

So far, I agree that the insanity of war, and brutalisation of the pilots, is being powerfully portrayed though all the black humour.

I've also been reminded of the way Heller drops in a cryptic line which will be explained later, often at the end of a chapter. I think he also does this in Something Happened, which I remember as having many similarities with Catch 22, although again it is many years since I read it.

Thanks Judy


By coincidence, Backlisted Podcast did an episode on Something Happened about a year ago.....

Authors Matt Thorne and Nikita Lalwani join John and Andy on the Backlisted podcast to discuss the ‘other’ masterpiece by Joseph Heller, Something Happened, first published in 1974.

https://www.backlisted.fm/episodes/63...

...which (as usual) really made me want to read it

I just enjoyed some of the sections on Milo Minderbinder. What a character. The powerful mess officer who controls an international black market syndicate (everyone has a share) and who is revered in obscure corners all over the world.

He seems quite prescient given the way that so much State activity is now outsourced to profiteering third parties, including "defence" related spending.

Milo ruthlessly chases after profit and even bombs his own colleagues as part of a contract with Germany.

Milo is the insanity of war writ large

Yep, insane.

Bit like the British government building a brand new aircraft carrier recently without having any money left over for any planes...! Errmmm?

Insane is the word that repeatedly comes to mind whilst reading Catch-22