THE Group for Authors! discussion

As you may have seen, we've announced the launch of Goodreads Help, our new, faster experience for finding answers to member questions and issues, as well as the closure of the Feedback Group. We also have some news to share about the Author Feedback Group. Starting today, we have new group moderators! Jack and J. are long-time members of the group who have provided help and advice across a wide range of topics, and are likely familiar to many of you. They will now be the official moderators bringing their own perspective as authors to solve issues and answer questions.

Jack and J. will be kicking off with a thread to introduce themselves soon. Although Goodreads employees will no longer be moderating this group effective next week, keep in mind that you can still contact us for support, and we also encourage you to visit and participate over on Goodreads Help.

I'm Jack! and I've activated the instant email notification for the group, meaning that I'll see any messages within a day.

We're considering a change to the group name. The two names currently under consideration are Authors Discussion Group and Writers Group.
Preferences?

Hi all, I'm officially registered as J, though most call me either Jim or Drew depending on how you know me. I too get emails when someone posts and am looking forward to working with Jack to make this group even better for the writers. Let us know what you think of the possible name change.

The 'old' group has been one of the most helpful I experienced in my early days as an Indie writer. Jack, you were wonderful in sharing on the Best Bang for Buck thread.

I wish you both many happy hours on here and success in writing.

Thanks. Looking forward to more great discussions.

Great. Best wishes from Blighty.

Name? Authors Discussion Group is a little more specific and perhaps closer to the intended purpose. (Starter for discussion - should there be an apostrophe?!)

ADG sounds like it fits the bill. Thanks for bringing us UP into your world. Don

Congratulations! I admire writers who manage to give so much in depth help as the new mods do. I don't post much but do read the insights given. Have fun being mods! :)

Authors Discussion Group sounds good to me!

Thanks for your nice comment, Anna!
I considered an apostrophe, but I prefer the name without; Author's sounds like one author, the group is for all authors. The more participation we get, the better, to a point.
If you were ever a member of Facebook's Writer's Group, that one got out of control. It won't happen here.
What will happen is that this group will be your go-to place for answers. Not just from Drew and myself; it's a discussion group, and the wider the experience pool we draw from, the more likely it is that someone will offer that missing bit of knowledge you need.
Ebooks? Paperbacks? Audiobooks? Whatever advice I offer is based on personal experience. Which means that someone else will need to step up if the question deals with traditional publishing.
As for advertising, I've done a fair bit of that, but I'm no expert. Still, I'll offer what help I can.
And now that I've caught up in the group, it's time I got busy at my day job (okay, very early in the morning job!) of writing. I'm currently writing two books simultaneously, but I may soon drop one so that I can complete the other in a month or so.

The group description page says: "official group for authors to give Goodreads feedback about the site". Will that no longer be the case? Will the description be changed? And GR staff will no longer be on the group?

If so, coupled with the shut-down of the "Goodreads Feedback" group as announced above, it feels like two significant, widely-used avenues for site-users to provide (and discuss) feedback about the site are being closed off.

That's because they are.

There is a group called Goodreads Feedback which appears to continue to have GR moderators and where anyone can address things with the GR staff. Also there are the Librarians who can handle a host of issues that authors might need help with. It does not look like GR is abandoning us just turning this group over to us.

J. wrote: "There is a group called Goodreads Feedback which appears to continue to have GR moderators and where anyone can address things with the GR staff. Also there are the Librarians who can handle a host..."

The GR Feedback Group will be abolished at the end of May and all of its content will be inaccessible after that date. I you need help after that you need to use the new help page.

Well shows that I don’t know everything. We’ll have to see what this new help section is and how it works.

So, if I understand correctly, actual behind the scenes modifications will be done by Librarians and Goodreads Help. And this group is author discussion, sharing experience. :) It's nice to have various groups but there did seem to be some overlap. OK, so corporate re-org. In corporations it's ongoing.

I'm a bit late joining a group that appears to somewhat focus on my favorite subject as an author: Hollywood (in the good old days). As the author of nine traditionally published books with the above theme, this is great news to me. If it isn't, it's still a place to bounce of ideas, ask for help and just connect with people who understand.
I look forward to exchanging thoughts, ideas or whatever.

Hope it will give me that push when my typing fingers grow lax.

It appears that Goodreads is making changes. I'm no expert in how the site worked before or how it works now; when I needed technical help, I contacted the Librarians. As to why, it may have to do with the change in ownership when Amazon bought Goodreads in 2013.
Turning site functions over to non-employees, as a cost-cutting measure? Or just the recognition that it's driven by readers/authors already?
I suspect it has to do with money; Jeff Bezos didn't get to be the richest man in the world by not counting his pennies!
Does Goodreads generate revenue for Amazon?
I've never used Goodreads ads; from comments I've seen, most haven't had a lot of success with them. Not to mention that they compete more-or-less directly with Amazon Ads.
So: a not-very-profitable acquisition, which may, in fact, be losing money?
Shutting it down wouldn't make sense; someone would simply re-invent it under a new name, and this time it might well work as an advertising outlet. But if non-paid moderators could be recruited, thereby cutting costs but also not giving a possible competitor an opportunity to cut into Amazon's Advertising revenue? Win-win!
It's just turned 6am where I am; I need more coffee!

Richard wrote: "The group description page says: "official group for authors to give Goodreads feedback about the site". Will that no longer be the case? Will the description be changed? And GR staff will no longe..."

Hi Richard-- That's correct. There will be a new name and description for the group soon, and Goodreads employees will no longer be moderating the group. Jack and Jim will be fully in charge of the group to make it as useful as possible to authors.

Authors are also welcome to participate over on Goodreads Help when they need support or have a question, and we're also available via email at support (at) goodreads (dot) com. You're welcome to submit feedback about Goodreads in either place!

Other behind-the-scenes discussions have been going on. I should explain that while I'm new to moderating a Goodreads group, this isn't my first time as moderator; I served as a moderator for the Mensa International discussion forums and later I founded and moderated a group on Facebook, the Intelligent Round Table. I'm no longer associated with either and I dropped my membership in the Librarians Group in order to concentrate on this one.
The point of this is that I'm experienced and I hope to use that experience to make this the best discussion group on Goodreads. A part of that is openness; no group can succeed without member participation. Which means that my job as one of two moderators is to ensure that you, the members, can participate fully.
A group must have rules; good rules are simple, easy to understand, helpful to the group, and reasonable. Rules that keep out the spammers, the exploiters, the time-wasters, the ones who want to hijack a group about writing and make it about religion. Not sure of what my comment means? You need only look at a group on Facebook that is supposed to be about writing, but is filled with stuff that's distantly related if at all.
A recent discussion involves possible changes to the group's rules. Goodreads has a rule in place regarding not promoting your books, which seems reasonable. BUT...there's a fine line between an author asking for help with a plot element and 'promoting' the book. Ditto questions about character development and all the other things that go into a book.
In the meantime, I hope you'll invite your friends to join this group.
Anna mentioned a group we are both members of, but which has run its course: the Best Bang for the Buck group, which deals with advertising.
It's pretty dormant now, which is why I suggest that it's done what it was designed to do, help authors understand advertising (an absolute necessity if you expect to succeed as a writer!) and how to get the most return for their advertising dollar.
As such, the group's aims were limited. I hope this one can be more all-inclusive. If you're a writer and want to let that bee out of your novelist's bonnet, then this will hopefully be the place for you to do that.
Your comments are always welcome.

Hi everyone-- As of today, our new moderators Jim and Jack are fully in charge of the group! We're so excited to see where they take it.

As always, you're welcome to email support (at) goodreads (dot) com or visit Goodreads Help if you have a question or need help.

The name change has been made.
After discussion with Jim, and a message to Emily to let her know what we have in mind, I offer the following rules for the group (with a reminder that our specific rules don't supersede Goodreads'):
No spam. An occasional mention of your book or the project you're working on is okay; we're all authors, we all need help from time to time, and the name of a project/title isn't promoting your book. But don't include links to a site where the book is for sale.
No discussion of personal religious beliefs.
No personal attacks. If you don't like an author's work, don't buy the book.

Well said, Jack. Authors this is your group. So bring on the discussion. Meanwhile I've got to get back to my current project.

Jack wrote: "We're considering a change to the group name. The two names currently under consideration are Authors Discussion Group and Writers Group.
Preferences?"

Hi Jack,

I have always wondered what the real difference was between authors and writers.

‘The internet’ defines a writer as “a person who writes books, articles, or any literary piece” and an author as “the person who originates the idea, plot or content of the work being written.”

Are those definitions correct? And if so, should any change to the group name keep those definitions in mind?

Best, Joy

I don't agree.
Just posting a comment here makes you a 'writer'. But until you write that first piece, be it short-story or full-length novel, you're not an author.
There's a kind of gray area between the two. Consider the essayist or blogger; he/she is more than a FB or GR commentator, but is what they do enough to qualify them as an 'author? I've written a number of blog posts, including a report on my climate experiments (the information in several of the New Frontiers novels is based on that); did that make me an author? I also wrote an article for an online magazine, Old Woodworking Machines (OWWM). Complete with pictures I took while rebuilding an old wood lathe. So does that make me not just an author, but a photographer too? :D
But your question goes to who can post here. My take: so long as the poster follows the three simple rules I authored earlier, I personally don't care. If the poster's output is limited to poetry or even limericks, well, Shakespeare authored plays and poems. Isaac Asimov, one of the most prolific authors ever, authored limericks!
You may see strangers here who have yet to post their first piece of fiction. Mea culpa; I authored a post this morning ( :D ) on the 'Introduce Yourself' GR thread/group announcing the name change for this one and suggesting that if they were interested, they visit the group.
I support inclusion, not exclusion.
Hope that clarifies matters!

Jack wrote: "I don't agree.
Just posting a comment here makes you a 'writer'. But until you write that first piece, be it short-story or full-length novel, you're not an author.
There's a kind of gray area bet..."

Thank you for the explanation. The definitions for ‘author’ and ‘writer’ on the internet are certainly grey - am glad that “inclusion” is the accepted way. In fact, every piece of writing is intrinsically important, whether it is an article in a journal, a blog, a personal memoir, or even a musician’s compositions. (Your comment about photographing your wood lathe made me smile.)

Musician's compositions?
Now that you mention it... :D

I'm 100% with Jack here. Inclusion is the goal as long as people don't break the rules, I'll welcome everyone.

Hi. I'm new to this group and am just getting ready to launch a new book and reading everything I can find on novel marketing--particularly historical fiction.

Welcome, Faith!
I've got quite a bit of experience, stuff I learned the hard way. My fellow mod, J. Drew Brumbaugh, too. We write science fiction, but marketing is marketing. Ask your questions, we'll help.
One other resource you might look at: the Best Bang for the Buck thread here on Goodreads. It's about getting the most from your marketing dollar.

Hi Faith,
Another thread on Goodreads that has a lot of info on marketing is BOOK PROMOTION SITES--THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY WORK!
And if that doesn't help I'm sure Jack and I will try to help answer questions.

One issue: if this is your first book, you might have problems getting BookSends, EReader News Today, or similar email advertisers to carry your ad. They have review standards, including a minimum number of reviews and an average rating of at least 4 stars.

Hmmm...
I did a bit of exploring among Goodreads Groups this morning. It appears we're now the Authors Discussion Group of the Authors Discussion Group!
We might need another name change.

Really? How'd you come across that?

I went to the community link and from there to groups. At the time, I was looking for the group you mentioned and I was also interested in groups that might help Faith get started. I also wondered why traffic to the group had died off to nothing for more than a month.
If you look at the current group heading, it identifies the original name as a discussion thread under the parent Authors Discussion Group. I hadn't noticed that, and for that matter I'm still not certain how Goodreads is organized. Take a look, let me know what you think.

Jack,
I can't seem to find the same thing you did. I went to community, they groups but it keeps bringing up "my groups" and not all groups. When I tried to search for Authors Discussion in the groups search field it brings up pages and pages of groups. And I certainly don't know how the hierarchy is laid out within Goodreads. If you think we need to change the name to avoid confusion maybe we do. Any suggestions?

How about 'THE Group for Authors!' as a name?

I like it. Simple and explicitly says who we are.
Do you remember how to change the group name?

No, but I'll have a shot at it later, after I've had a couple of cups of coffee!

By golly, I think I got it done! :O

Looks like it. Good going.

We humble moderators live to serve!
I also mentioned the group on my FB page, but I doubt it made a difference; we're not exactly overwhelmed with traffic! :(

Jack wrote: "We humble moderators live to serve!
I also mentioned the group on my FB page, but I doubt it made a difference; we're not exactly overwhelmed with traffic! :("

You humble moderators are much appreciated though.

We need more stuff to moderate! :O

How about AMS ads vs BookBub ads (the ones you create yourself)? I'm still struggling with PPC ads. The paid promo sites don't seem to be delivering the results they used to, so maybe PPC is the next level. That said, BargainBooksy, ENT, and Booksends can still sometimes deliver. BookBub is still the holy grail but seems even harder to get.

I agree; I depended on BookSends and ENT for a couple of years, but they aren't adding enough people to their mail lists to make it worthwhile. Bookbub? I agree with your assessment of Bookbub; I've never gotten one of their ads. It appears to me that traditional publishers have concentrated on their platform, effectively freezing indie publishers out.
That said, all is not hopeless.
PPC ads can deliver IF you can target your audience on Facebook so that people who might be interested in your book see the ad, and IF you can write an ad that delivers. I lost money every time I tried it, but a friend of mine spends thousands every month doing that and his return on investment is at least 2 to 1. Some succeed, most fail.
Which brings me to Amazon Ads.
The difference is that you don't have to target your audience; that happens automatically. And unlike BookBub and ENT/BookSends, your book is full price.
Three things:
First, your price needs to be set high enough that even when a click-through costs $1 or more, you will still make a profit if the clicker buys. Amazon now suggests a price, $3.99 if I recall correctly. I tried that for a year, then set my prices at $4.99. Guess what? My sales didn't fall through the cellar!
Two, your book should be listed on Kindle Unlimited. The discount hunters will go for it and even though it won't be reflected as a 'buy' on Amazon Ads, you'll get paid IF the KU customer reads the book. You need a good 'hook' in the beginning and you need to keep them interested.
Third, your ads: first, you need an interesting ad that will cause them to click through. If that's not happening, rewrite the blurb in the ad. Not easy; you're only allowed something like 120 characters. But others have done it, so you can too. And second, your blurb on Amazon has to sell that click-through person. My personal experience is that you need to hype your main character as a kind of extraordinary person, the kind that the reader would like to emulate. Pushing the danger or challenge? Meh. Supercharacter will win through in the end!
If you check your Amazon ads and see lots of click-throughs but not many buys, rewrite the blurb they see when they go to Amazon.
If you're not getting click-throughs, rework your ad on Amazon Ads. You can use up to 1000 attractors (including names of similar authors) or events (world-building, etc). You can also use negative words to keep from displaying your ad to people who won't buy your book. In my case, I advertise ESP, negative-ad dragons and magic in my Wizards Series. I advertise survivalism, negative-ad dystopian in my Darwin's World Series. And so on.
A final word of advice: write more books. You need at least 20 books if you intend to make a living from writing.
Don't let the number discourage you. I'm working on numbers 17 and 18 and I earned around $1400 last month from the 16 I've written. I expect to make more than $20k this year, even if I don't finish the two I'm working on. Most of it comes from 'borrows' through KU (~$650), ebook/paperback sales (~$450), the rest from audiobook sales.
I started writing in 2013, published my first book on Amazon in 2014. About 2.5 million words in print so far, and I'm still going.
If a 79-year-old can do that, you can too!

Hey Jack and D help my fading memory - what is PPC?

Pay per click.

Yep.