North & South discussion

Hi Ladies ~

I've added this topic at Trudy's suggestion (thanks Trudy) for you to discuss the book in its entirety. Any specific themes that were prominent or important to you while reading, any other ideas or thoughts, feel free to post them here for discussion. :)

The book is wonderful, full of details that you just can't see on screen even thought the screen version is very, very good. There are some things that I even liked better in the series. As I have already said, I love the final scene because I have not read that kind of implication in a classic novel before and it literlly drove me crazy. :D I just wished, like a lot of ladies here I believe, that the end was a little less abrupt because it felt like many things were left hanging. Buuut....it leaves a lot to imagination. :D

The ending is abrupt, but I feel the ending fits and that there is little left to work out between Margaret and John. It's only the families that will need to acclimate to this union.
I'm wondering if people think the balance of change is somewhat equal here. How much has Margaret learned and changed from the beginning to end, and how much has Thornton grown and changed?
I do think that the train scene meeting-in-the-middle is apt symbolism for the characters' progression in this story.

I like how Mr Thorton wasn't ashamed to admitt his bussines has failed. I notice how Edith thinks Margaret is pale because of the heat but it's not. I loved the ending I thought it was very romantic. Even thought I like the ending in the movie but I like the book ending much better.

I like the ending. Margaret needs to go through hell and back in order to truly become who she is meant to be. Once she can be free, then she can be free to love Thornton and accept his love. She will settle for nothing less than total acceptance and freedom.

Hahahahahah, Tadiana :D I feel you! :D

Tadiana wrote: ""

... But I want to marry him too! :( This is one of those times when cloning would come in handy, isn't it? Or we could just share. :P I've had this discussion with a couple of other ladies at different times - Soph gave up Thornton to me quickly enough as soon as I promised not to go near Darcy. :D

Hahaha! So true :))

But Thornton and Margaret are made for each other!! I've been speculating about what comes next. NO, not THAT part, the part about what their lives are like when they take that northbound train together. I think that together they will rebuild the mill business and make it a huge success and that all sort of little changes will come about because of Margaret and John. The dining room at the mill is just a start; there will be better labor relations, maybe technological innovations and new businesses to diversify away from cotton.

I'm guessing there will be plenty of children and that will soften up Hannah very quickly. And how about a house out in the countryside for the growing family--one with roses?!!! :)

Any other HEA ideas???

That is true, they are made for each other. :) Have you ever read the two novels that Trudi has written as sort of sequels to N&S? They are really brilliant, beautiful books, and A Heart For Milton comes quite close to the way I imagined John and Margaret's married life to be. :)

But I do agree with all of your HEA ideas, and I could probably come up with a few more if it wasn't so close to midnight... Personally I just find it extremely amusing to contemplate Fanny's reaction to the engagement.

I am definitely looking forward to Trudi's books! LOL Fanny :D

Sleep well, Becca, and have a great weekend!

HEA is difficult due to the bad economy. There's a Panic (recession) coming up in 1857 and then the U.S. Civil War. The growing tensions over slavery don't help the cotton market. Perhaps they can switch to wool or some other kind of fiber?

Thanks for mentioning my HEA stories, Becca. :) And yes, I take into account the cotton famine that comes with the Civil War in my epilogue to A Heart for Milton. John and Margaret are a great match for weathering trials together.

Here's one of the things that has really surprised me since publishing my N&S variations: some people who love this story are left with the impression that Margaret and John still have much to iron out between them ideologically, which they often assume will result in a rather fiery marriage with some heated arguments.
I have yet to have anyone clearly and logically support this view based on the plot and character development referenced in the original text.
Does the story conclude with characters who don't understand each other, or have they evolved to a point where their views and motives are very similar?

I think that their views and motives are quite similar now. At first, he had to soften his views and see his workers as people and not just as parts of his business. She was quite prejudiced against him and naive in her views, and they've come to a central point. I think that there could well be some heated arguments in their futures, they are both passionate people, but I don't think they will be in constant conflict. And even though they might argue with passion I think they will also love each other very deeply. They are both so alone, and from very early on it is clear that they have a connection. In many ways they are quite alike. Margaret fits better with the Thorntons than her own family, and I see them being really happy together.

I think, Mrs Thornton will accept Margaret firstly for the sake of her son, but she already admires her, and Margaret solving John's financial problems and curing his unhappiness in one fell swoop will go a long way to procuring her goodwill. I see it taking a while for her to agree that anybody is good enough for her precious boy, but in time I can see her loving Margaret for her own sake. Once they have a few small Thorntons come along I see them being a very happy family, who will strive to improve life for the people in Milton while running a successful business, of course :)

Thank you so much for the group read ladies, I have gained so much from your comments!

I think they will have the same problems that plague every independent Victorian heroine and her true love: she is a bit too independent. In most of the novels I've read, the husbands want to keep their wives from harm and sometimes the heroine's impetuousness gets her intro trouble. I see Margaret and Thornton as a bit more mature than that but I can also see them butting heads about what kind of public role she'll play. He'll be completely awful while she's pregnant - wanting to protect her all the time and a totally doting father. I can see him being tormented by a little Margaret, junior! She'd have him wrapped around her finger as soon as she could talk. No nurses and governesses to raise the Thornton children. Margaret and John will be doting, involved parents

*sigh* I come back to this thread and start reading everyone's beautiful descriptions of Margaret and John's married life, and every time I seem to get something stuck in my eye...

This eye grit is terrible isn't it Becca ;)

I know, I know, it really is. *shakes head sadly* And it comes at the strangest moments, too... ;)

This is a really nice musical montage of the final scenes in the miniseries. This gives me a good quick fix from time to time. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycCpSJ...

Tadiana wrote: "This is a really nice musical montage of the final scenes in the miniseries. This gives me a nice fix from time to time. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycCpSJ..."
I watched that about three times before I went to bed after I finished the novel! It's beautiful.

Oh that was so lovely! *breaks out hankie*

Trudy wrote: "I do think that the train scene meeting-in-the-middle is apt symbolism for the characters' progression in this story..."

That's an excellent point. Somehow watching the montage without dialog, with only the music in the background, woke me to the the symbolism and the sweet, shy way that John and Margaret are portrayed.

Hana wrote: "Somehow watching the montage without dialog, with only the music in the background, woke me to the the symbolism and the sweet, shy way that John and Margaret are portrayed."

Watching it without dialogue made me really notice the looks on their faces as they interacted with each other, especially John's face as he's watching Margaret explain her financial proposal to him. *sigh*

I had the same reaction! They both do those tiny little smiles that start in the eyes remarkably well. And she kisses his hand first, which I did not notice when I watched the DVD. It's a visual hint of her awakening passion and is just as subtle as the ending chapter in the book.

Tadiana wrote: "This is a really nice musical montage of the final scenes in the miniseries. This gives me a good quick fix from time to time. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycCpSJ..."

... And there go the tears. Again.

@Trudy: I think that Thornton has grown in the understanding of the "hands" as human beings who are working on the same project as he does. But Margaret has developed more, esp. in her personal sense, from a child to a mature woman who is aware of her sensuality and who forgets her prejudices.
I also think that most of their differences are cleared and that they will lead a happy marriage (besides the small difficulties each pair has in their relationship).
I also liked the final train scene in the series, as it shows imo that John and Margaret are moving in different directions, but meet in the middle and find their way together.

Yes, I love that through Margaret's prodding, John has expanded his vision and his role as a master. By the end of the book he is charged by the ideas he has - 'experiments' he calls them - to find ways that both improve the workers' lives and the productivity of business.
He refuses to take work under the old authoritarian system.
He will want to mentally work out these new ideas with Margaret. He will want to hear her views, as he always has. They may argue over points of practice or theory at times, but they have very similar goals and designs. I can't see any tumultuous arguments.
For both of these mature individuals, their marriage will be a cherished privilege that they will never jeopardize by self-will.
They both know how to put others' needs first.
I see their marriage more in the line of what Gaskell had. The Unitarian model of marriage was much more modern. Men and women were more equal. Individual thinking was encouraged.

I came across this in my stuff... I attended a graduate conference where one of the presenters, Megan Stoner Morgan, gave a talk “I Wanna Hold Your Hand: The Evolution of the Knowable Body from Pride and Prejudice to North and South.” I suggest e-mailing her and having her join in our discussion! meganjs@uga.edu

I think that, seeing as I do not know the lady, I would feel a little awkward emailing her myself. But she does sound like a very interesting woman and if you (or anyone else) would want to email her, I would have no objection. :)

Megan's portfolio is public but she doesn't seem to have published anything on N&S.

Do you think Margaret would be happy, in the long run, as Mrs. John Thornton? I've written a little essay summing up my vision of how the Thornton marriage would give Margaret a fulfilling life. http://www.westofmilton.com/mrs-john-...

I completely agree with everything you've said in that post, Trudy. :) I think the two of them would live a perfectly happy, wonderful and fulfilling life together. It would probably help that Fanny would be living with her own husband, by that point - I imagine having her and Margaret constantly in each others company could get on everyone's nerves eventually. :P But as sister-in-laws not living in the same household, I think they'd get along great(ish).

I think Watson lived a bit away from Milton. Hopefully, that'll keep Fanny from visiting too often!
With a week or so think about the impact of my third read-through, I think three things stood out to me this time.
First, the rapid-fire succession of events from the riot to the saving from the inquest was mind-boggling. The events Margaret encountered one after another in a period of about two weeks included: involvement in a dangerous riot, throwing her body on an eligible man, rejecting the fervent love of said man, mother's death, witnessing a brother's narrow escape, friend's death, and lying to law enforcement.
(And this Victorian girl only fainted once in all this -strong girl!)
Second, how quickly she went from vehemently rejecting John to being mortified by how she treated him and essentially venerating his character - less than two weeks' time.
Third, this time I really noticed how fervent Thornton became in his interest in working with his employees. Even before Margaret left Milton he was starting the worker's kitchen and calling Higgins a friend. By the end of the book, what animates him is his newfound ambition to find ways to work with employees - to experiment on how to improve both the workers' lives and improve business. He won't take work unless he can implement some of his ideas. He's not the same master at all that Margaret encountered in the beginning.
I believe he sees the men as equals now - as equal human beings to himself.

I think you're right... still don't think that'll save Margaret from having to travel to see Fanny's new wallpaper! :P

It's a bit of a fault of mine, but unless a book's timeline is somewhat shoved in my face, I don't tend to notice precisely how much time is passing. So while I knew that the riot and the proposal came in relatively close proximity to one another, but I didn't realise the other events were so close together! Again, I'm a little more familiar with the series than the novel, and as the series added in the Great Exhibition, I'm always left with the impression of more than two weeks having passed by.

The other two points I definitely had noticed. Margaret's opinions do change very quickly - poor thing, having to deal with her own conflicting feelings, on top of everything else! - and Thornton's interest in his employees is so endearing. I don't think John Thornton was ever a bad master, especially in comparison to some of the others, but I love seeing him start to become animated about bettering his workers lives. From a few of the comments he makes, you can see how important all this has become to him in such a short time. :) As you said, he's now able to see his workers as human beings, as individuals that he can judge by their own merit, instead of as a collective group.

I'm sure visits to Fanny's would have to be endured. I feel sorry for Watson's pocketbook, and for John and Margaret and Hannah to have to listen to Fanny go on and on about her new decor.
Gaskell blunders her timeline, so the events shouldn't have been so close together. It's one of the errors of the novel -the timeline doesn't really make sense. Fred arrives on the scene WAY too early. So, if she had kept to a realistic time frame on that score, the events would have been spread out to more like 3-4 weeks. As it's written, poor young Margaret barely has time to breathe between jarring events.
I suppose that's one of the reasons I think Margaret is a fantastic literary heroine - she soldiers on through a stream of traumas that would have had most girls her age lying prostrate on the sofa! (And Margaret DOES do this - finally, when her father dies.)

LOL, I think we all feel very sorry for Watson's pocketbook. And as for those visits to Fanny... can't you just imagine?! :D

Margaret: *helping straighten Johns cravat* "John, we're engaged to have dinner with your sister tomorrow evening."
John: *slightly panicked look* "Tomorrow evening? Oh but, um, I've got to work late tomorrow, there have been a few problems in the, ah, workers kitchen, and..."
Margaret: *stern look* "John..."
John: *exasperated sigh* "Oh, fine! I know she's my sister, but if she starts going on about a new gown or that new Indian wallpaper one more time, I am going to make up an excuse for us to leave."

XD I can totally see that happening, can't you?

Ah yes, I remember a couple of people saying something to that effect. Fred must have taken a jet boat from Spain! It might be a deliberate error in order to keep piling the pressure onto Margaret, but I'm sure that the same effect could have been achieved with the timeline making sense... just a little tweaking or editing needed here and there.

She really is a wonderful girl, isn't she? Most girls her age would have needed constant access to the smelling salts or whatnot, but she just deals with it, the brave thing. In a way I'm glad that Gaskell finally had her give in, and at the point that she did it was perfect timing for the character. She only allowed herself to crumble once she had lost almost everything, and more importantly there was no one left to depend on her to be strong. She could allow herself to grieve, without worrying about the effect it would have on those around her.

Can't imagine anything else but John wishing to avoid dinner at Fanny's. :P
And yes, she only lets herself collapse when no one is relying on her.
Both Margaret and Thornton have demonstrated amazing strength. Imagine the power of this couple as a combined team!

Hehe, neither can I. :P The two of them will make a wonderful team.

I also wanted to say thank you to you, Trudy, for all your contributions to the group read. :) Your thoughts have always been beautifully expressed and helped me appreciate the novel so much more this time around. Thank you so much!

Thanks, I've really enjoyed this group discussion. Everyone was very insightful. I always learn something and get fresh perspectives from others' comments.
Discussing N&S is one of my absolute favorite things to do! When you love something, you want to share it, and your enthusiasm can be (hopefully) catching. :)

Exactly. :) Speaking of which, are you in favour of doing another group watch for the ten-year anniversary of the release of North & South, which I believe is on November 14? I can't find the original thread the idea was being discussed on, but I thought it might be fun, especially as we have considerably more members now than we did last time around. :)

I'd be keen for a group watch!

Thanks Brenda - glad to hear it! :)

I really should watch it. It's been at least two years!

o_O

...How do you survive?!

It's engraved in my mind. I can hit 'replay' at any time. I watched parts of it last year to take note of certain conversations, scenery, and settings as research for my second book.
Watching it for pleasure in it's entirety would be a rare indulgence. It's four hours! I barely watch anything, let alone four hours' worth in a week.

I know what you mean. :) I watch it a lot more often than you do (though a friend has it at the moment and for some reason she seems reluctant to watch it... I know she was really tired that day but she fell asleep half way through the first episode... *angry mumbling*), but I know if I were to stop watching it long-term, it would be engraved on my mind also. :)

Still, it's a shame you don't have time to watch it very often! I really hope you can join in and watch it with the group this time around.

I bet the timeline owes to the story originally being a serial. If it had been a novel first perhaps Gaskell would have spent more time plotting out her timeline and pacing events.

I finally got that Oxford Classics book again and I'll take a look and see what the editor meant by her comments on the domestic ending.

The Oxford editor says [after discussing how Thornton and the workers have come to an understanding] "... Fear of the smouldering masses is not quenched. It is significant that the novel ends not with a union meeting, or a working-class scene, but in the safe surroundings of a middle-class drawing-room. ... Fears of the working-class animality ran deep. By transposing those fears, in part, in to the middle-class female body, Gaskell elides class and gender concerns, to offer a symbolic resolution of class conflict through marriage. But what kind of marriage? Is Thornton to remain tender and 'yet a master?' Gaskell's difficulties in representation mirror the ideological problems in the text. The central question of how far individual 'freedom in working' should be allowed to override 'obedience to authority' remains unanswered."

I think we've already discussed this above.

I hosted my IRL book club today. As host, it was my responsibility to nominate 5 or 6 books to the group for next month's read, and then we take a vote. The hands-down winner: North and South! Since I'll also be responsible for leading the discussion next month, I guess I'll be re-reading this book, as well as all of your so helpful comments in these threads. Wish me luck! We only have an hour to discuss it. :p

That's so great, Tadiana! :) I'm glad N&S won the vote so resoundingly. But I can't imagine only having one hour to discuss it... that'll be tough. Have fun re-reading, and of course if you have any more thoughts on the novel that you want to share on the threads here, I'd love to hear them. :)