Book Chat - CLOSED by original moderator discussion

Fiction is a story no one else has ever heard of, which might be realistic or all together made up. Fiction is a place of self-express, of dreams, of possibilities, proven and rejected. Fiction centers around a single subject and is seen of one point of view. Fiction is filled with pictures, ideas, and conclusions. Fiction cannot be proven against Fact and usually lasts years in the readers mind.

H. wrote: "An absolutely brilliant definition! I am about to read Katina's new book, "Fourteen Articles That Will Change Your Desire for Writing Forever.""

I hope you enjoy it. Don't forget to bring your highlighter to clip and save.

Good fiction is based on true stories. It allows the reader to feel terror but gives them a escape. They simply say it is not real. Some people cannot handle a book that is nonfiction due to being overcome by real terrors. I personally love good books based on true stories because they tend to be more interesting and sometimes have surprise endings.

H. wrote: "What is the real value of fiction? Isn't it to immerse the reader in a captivating yet beneficial story from which they emerge refreshed, stronger, more optimistic, and equipped with new ideas and ..."

I think its value is to immerse the reader in a different life (or lives) to their own. Sometimes this can be a temporary escape from stressful situations. Other times it can be challenging, educational, or simply enjoyable.
There is at least one study (By Rose Turner from Kingston University in London) that found that readers tended to be more empathetic and were more aware of other people's feelings than non-readers. I suspect that that is because when we read we spend hours experiencing the thoughts and feelings of other (fictional) people. It helps us see that there are many different ways to experience life.

I not sure I follow you. If something is autobiographical how is it complete fiction? Surely something autobiographical would be the second category because it would be based on an actual person? I am also unsure how fantasy or sci-fi fits into your framework.

What about the 7 plots theory? I know that has a different focus but doesn't that have a bearing on types of fiction?

You really have asked an interesting question. This is sparking off so many questions!

I understand now, thank you. I was wondering how fantasy fits in with this, but I suppose it would have to mirror the author's life experiences at least in terms of how the characters act and respond the events in the plot. I get really annoyed if a character behaves in an unbelievable way, especially if no one else in the book notices that they've done (or said) something strange or out of character (that's not just in fantasy novels).


Come to think of it, I also get annoyed if a fantasy author suddenly uses a plot device that they haven't alluded to earlier in the plot. The first time I came across this the "guilty author" was C.S. Lewis using the "deep magic" which brought Aslan back to life in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. There is no mention or allusion to "deep magic" until C.S. Lewis needed to get out of a fix he made for himself . I know - I read the book a second time straight after finishing it, looking for a hint or reference I'd missed and there wasn't one. My eight year old self was furious! He CHEATED!

I think this fits in with your fiction framework in the sense that readers know how our world "works" and if someone is creating a fantasy world then that also has to "work" too, even if some of the "rules" of that world (whether physical, legal or cultural etc) are different.

There's an interesting description of fiction in the Vietnam War novel "The Things They Carried" by Tim O'Brien--basically he says that fiction can bring a reader closer to the experiences of the writer than a nonfictional account. Tolstoy says the same thing--art lets us experience another's feelings and sensations, not just hear about them. The fiction I love does make me feel I have experienced something new, not simply learned about it.

A good fiction consists of lengthy character building, a colorful story, a twist in the plot, and taking Chekhov’s gun and tossing it out the window!

H. wrote: "What would be the difference between fiction and fantasy? It seems that fiction could easily be true -- in fact it is often referred to as a “distillation of truth” -- whereas fantasy is so farfetc..."

Hi, sorry for going "silent" I've had intermittent router issues.

I think you must have a different way of looking at fiction to me. I class books firstly as fiction or non-fiction. If it is not a factual account of something, then it's fiction.
I'd class fantasy as fiction, but I don't think it should be far-fetched, although I suppose some people may say that any reference to magic (for example) is far fetched. My attitude is that I want to read about a world and people that I can believe in. If someone introduces "magic" as a concept, I want them to use the idea consistently within their novel (or novels it if is a series) and do something interesting with that idea.
I think that in the right hands fantasy can hold up a mirror to our own world and challenge readers to reassess their views about something that affects our world. OK, most of the time it is just fun, but so are many non-fantasy fiction books. I really don't understand why some readers and authors look down on fantasy (by the way, I'm not accusing you of that, I'm just reflecting the reactions I have come across to fantasy in the past).

I have to like the majority of the characters, especially the main character.....

F'ugly people will get me to drop a book almost immediately.

Kimberly wrote: "I have to like the majority of the characters, especially the main character.....

F'ugly people will get me to drop a book almost immediately."

I usually have to like them too, but occasionally I enjoy books when the main character is an anti-hero. I've never been able to work out what makes me enjoy books with anti-heros though, so I feel like I'm gambling a bit when I start one of those books.

KeenReader wrote: "Kimberly wrote: "I have to like the majority of the characters, especially the main character.....

F'ugly people will get me to drop a book almost immediately."

I usually have to like them too, b..."

But some of them are likable....

No man buns. I'm kidding, but not really.

A well thought out story that is well written in all senses of the term, lacking in continuity errors, with likeable characters who may be flawed but whose actions are true to the character as presented, and one where the author takes the time to develop the world, the characters, and the relationships.

I hate it when you are presented with a strong female character who immediately bends to every whim of the guy, completely abandoning all aspects of the character, or when the author writes characters as abused or suffering real torture and then that abuse or the impact of that torture just disappears because it's no longer convinient to the story. Also when you start out a book and it feels like you have some how missed an entire book because the author acts as though the characters and the world are already established, or where instead of bringing the reader through those getting to know you conversations there are info dumps of moments that took place "off camera". Summaries aren't meant for character and plot development, they are meant for moving the story along from one plot point to the other without having to go through every mundane detail of the character's life. Don't say coffee with John was nice. He told me about his childhood, how he wanted a dog, that he was reluctant to be in a relationship because of a bad ex, and he actually hates coffee, actually give me that scene of them sitting in the coffee shop, John grimacing when he takes a sip of the coffee he doesn't actually like because he didn't want to seem fussy, Jane laughing and getting him a hot chocolate instead with extra whipped cream. Have him smile and tell Jane how his mom would also make him a hot chocolate with extra whipped cream to soften the blow when yet another Christmas card and went without a dog, his dad was super allergic, I'm talking eyes swelled shut if a dog even looked in his direction. But then skip over Jane's work week, I don't need to know about the memo she filed and the details of the copy machine being broken unless that is crucial to the plot or setting up another scene. Instead of walking me through each task she did say the next two weeks few by. With the quarter drawing to a close everyone in the office was stressed to wrap up project and bank the billing. That meant long hours. John had texted me a couple of times after our coffee date, but I was barely even showering, flirty texts were way outside of my realm of feasible. It was 9 and I was finally headed home, off the hook for the mad dash to finish the quarter strong now that the California offices were closed for the day. All I wanted to do was curl up and sleep for a week, after a long hot shower, well, until I passed a little boy asking his mom for a puppy in the window. I droned her lecture on adopting not shopping as my mind wandered to John. He'd stopped texting after days of no response from me. I'd probably blown my chance, I thought, chewing on my lip, but what if...I pulled out my phone and shot out a quick text. "Ok. How many hot chocolates do I owe you to make up for going m.i.a?" I watched the check go from d to r. Nothing. "I'm willing to throw in homemade cookies." Damn r. "Ok, look, I know I'm the worst but things at work were legitimately crazy, I didn't mean to blow you off. Seriously, I don't think I've shaved in a week and the bags under my eyes look like I tried to take on Connor McGregor. It didn't go well. Connor won ." "Pics or it didn't happen." ...
Ok well you get the point. Give me details, get me hooked. Make sure your characters are making decisions that make sense for who you told me they are, and research the details of the story. If you are going to write a story about a guy in law school don't say he mom wrote the principal to get him an extension on his test ( I actually read that in a book) if you don't know it and can't reasonable educate yourself on a topic don't write about it because the errors will take the reader out of the story. Similarly make sure you stay true to the age of the characters. If you are writing about college students don't have the mean girl clique, detentions, and school uniforms. If you are writing paranormal don't rely on the magic as the foundation for the relationship. They may have magic demanding a physical relationship but you still need to make me the reader fall in love with them as a couple, so develop that relationship so I can fall right along with the girl. Oh and pay attention to your time line. If you have a character having a run in with someone at their 9 am class don't then say they went home and went straight to bed as though it wasn't 10 am and they just skipped the rest of their classes and two meals, or have the characters put cupcakes in the oven tell you they will be ready in 20 minutes, have a 30 second conversation and then say oops need to take the cupcakes out. You have your lines of dialog, that was not 20 minutes of cupcake.baking time.

"...occasionally I enjoy books when the main character is an anti-hero...."

"But some of them are likeable..."

True, but sometimes I have enjoyed reading about one that isn't. The only example I can think of is Minguillo Fasan in The Book of Human Skin. I was really hoping he would get his just deserts. If I recall correctly, as a character he was a bit over the top, which may have been why I was able to enjoy the book.

Lucie wrote: "No man buns. I'm kidding, but not really."

Wow you are tough! I must be too because I agree with everything you wrote especially the part about "show don't tell"

By the way, did John phone back? Inquiring minds need to know!

Well, John had asked for "pics or it didn't happen". Jane glanced at her reflection in the window of the closed real estate office and flinched. Ok, she knew she looked bad, but this was just verging on ridiculous. The eyeliner she'd thrown on that morning in an attempt to look presentable had somehow smear half an inch down the side of her right eye, could Will and Sue have not mentioned that to her at some point? The bags she had promised were in fact there, highlighted nicely by the sheen of sweat now coating her body in the humid night. Speaking of humid, between not having washed her hair in at least 36 six hours and the bun she had tried to corral the mess into, well what was left of the bun, you would think the humidity wouldn't have been able to penetrate her follicles. You would be wrong. Her head was a lopsided, frizzy helmet. Sexy. The only thing rivaling her hair for sexiest look of the year was the hair on her legs that was now blowing in the breeze of a passing car. Actually blowing. Shoot me now, Jane thought. Ok, new rule, the next time the quarter is wrapping up I make time for bathing properly.
Jane glanced back down at John's response. She' left him on read for a solid to minutes while she admired herself. Jane sighed and started typing.
Jane: Ok, pick your poison, do you want the bags or the legs?
John: It's been weeks, both.
Jane: Are you sure you can handle both, its pretty bad
John: waiting
Jane: Ok, ok, but dont say I didn't warn you.
Opening up her camera app Jane snapped two pictures, attaching them to the chat and hitting send before she could come to her senses. Three dots appeared next to John's name, disappeared, appeared again, disappeared. Oh god! Why did she send him those pictures? Se was trying to get him to talk to her not send him running to the local Yeti hunter.
John: Ok, don't take this the wrong way but um, what dude did you get to let you take a picture of his legs, and is Connor still there? Do you think he will give me his autograph?
Jane: I'm not speaking to Connor at the moment so you are going to have to ask him yourself, and I did try to warn you.
John: Where are you at?
Jane: Corner of Broad and 9th.
John: That's a block from my apartment, why don't you swing up?
Jane read John's text and then read it again. Was he really inviting her to his place? After those pictures? After weeks of her blowing him off? Every fiber of her body wanted to go home, curl up on the couch, and not move for a month, but what if she told him that and he never wanted to talk to her again? She could just stop in, say hi, maybe make plans to do something once she'd had a chance to wash her hair, and then she could be on her way to her date with her bed. If she wanted a second chance to see where things could go with John she really didn't see another option. Jane toyed with the idea of texting her best friend Sam to see what Sam though, but she knew Sam would tell her to get her butt up there. Jane sighed.
Jane: Sure. Where am I going.
Five incredibly short minutes later Jane stood outside of John's door, hesitating. Did she really want to do this? She raised her hand, preparing to knock when the door swung open.
"I was wondering if you were going to knock or not," John teased.
"You were watching me?"
"Yeah, the camera altered me you were outside the door, so I got up to answer, but when you didn't knock I waited to see what you would do."
"What were you going to do if I didn't knock?"
John shrugged, "Put your number with 'for a good time call' in in all the bathrooms I came across from here on out."
"Hmm, is it too late to go with that option? What if Liam Hemsworth finds it? He's single now you know."
"Yup, sorry. You are stuck with me. Come on in."
"You know, you should really let a girl know all of her options when you invite her over," I mock chastised walking into the apartment, relieved as we easily slipped into the same banter I'd experienced with John every other time we talked. Maybe he wasn't that mad?
"If I did that I'd never get a girl up here. Did you eat yet?"
"No. We just wrapped the quarter. I was headed home to eat and shower when I passed a kid asking for a puppy and thought of you."
"Did the kid get the puppy?"
"No."
"Well that story had a horrible ending."
"It sounded like his mom wasn't against the idea."
"Ah! A series with a mild cliffhanger," he said with a clap, "I like it." I smiled, but I could tell it was weak from the way John's face dropped. "Hey, um, don't take this the wrong way, but you look worse in person than you did in the pictures."
I grimaced, "Man, you really know how to talk a girl up."
"Why do you think I have to tell the the whole men's bathroom stall number thing is an option until after they've committed?"
"Smart man."
"Listen, my sister was just visiting and left all of her girl stuff here, if you want I can grab you some sweats and you can take a shower while I order some food and we can watch something, or... that's weird isn't it?" he asked, running his hand up and down the back of his head so his hair was all askew, his awkardness making him even cuter if that was even possible. "Forget I said anything. You probably want to get out of here."
"Yes!" I blurted, "I mean no. I mean yes, a shower, sweats, food, and a movie or something sounds nice. No I don't want to get out of here."
"Ok," John beamed, his dimpled smile lighting up his entire face, "bathroom is this way. What are you in the mood for?" He asked as he led the way down the hall to a modest but clean bathroom.
"Something that isn't greasy. I've been eating junk for weeks now. I feel as gross as I look."
"Ok, not greasy. Towels are in there," he said pointing to a closet, "so are all of Amy's girl soaps. Obviously that's the shower; it has hot and cold water, and I'll go grab you some sweats."
"Ooo, I didn't know I was getting hot and cold water? Maybe you should lead with that next time you invite a girl up," I teased as he backed out of the bathroom.
I had all of Amy's soaps lined up on the practically empty ledge in the shower and the water running when I heard a knock. I turned to find John leaning against the door frame, a pair of sweats in his hand. God he was hot.
"Got your sweats, you good to go here?"
"Yup. Thanks for loaning me your shower," I said, taking the clothes from him. Was it a bad idea to invite him to shower with me? I wondered rubbing my ankle on the back of my other leg, the hairs tugging as the tangled. Oh right, that. Yeah, this was definitely not how I wanted to look when he saw me naked for the first time. If he saw me naked. Maybe I didn't want him to see me naked. Maybe I didn't want to see him naked. Ok, yeah that was a lie, I totally wanted to see him naked.
"Oh, I almost forgot," John said reaching into his pocket and pulling something out.
"What's that? I asked, reaching forward to take whatever was concealed in his large palm.
A mischievous smirk danced across John's face and I swear my legs wobbled a little. "A razor," he said with a wink before grabbing the handle and shutting the door, leaving me gaping at a closed door.

Lucie wrote: "Well, John had asked for "pics or it didn't happen". Jane glanced at her reflection in the window of the closed real estate office and flinched. Ok, she knew she looked bad, but this was just vergi..."

Loved it! Thank you!

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