SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Shamelessly stealing this idea from Popsugar, but I'd like to talk about books that pass (or that do not pass for interesting reasons) the various tests for inclusivity:

1. The Bechdel Test - books in which a woman talks to another woman about something other than a man or a man's problem.

2. The Sexy Lamp Test: books with women characters sufficiently independent that their role could not be performed by salacious inanimate objects. (This should be pretty easy, as it's meant to be satirical, so the focus would be more on books that surprise us by NOT passing it)

3. The Mako-Mori test: At least one woman gets a narrative arc that is not in relation to a man's narrative arc.

4. The Vito Russo test: book contains at least one LGBTQIA+ person who is not solely defined by their queerness, and whose removal from the story would alter the narrative substantially.

5. The Duvernay test: A person of color must have an arc independent of a white person's storyline.

6. The Waithe test: book contains a black woman in power in a healthy relationship (or that is not about her unhealthy relationship)

7. The Villalobos test: book contains a Latina woman who is educated or a professional, speaks unaccented English, and is not sexualized.

8. Any other test I may not have heard about, but that is not derogatory!

Two women walk into a bar and discuss the bechdel test.

Phillip wrote: "Two women walk into a bar and discuss the bechdel test."

That would likely cause a book to pass that test, yes!

Are these all to apply to feminine autonomy? 4 and 5 specifically seem removed.

As it is, Dead Endless seems to pass Vito Russo easily (aspect for which I'm greatly thankful, though such a 'test' here is new to me).

Jemppu wrote: "Are these all to apply to feminine autonomy? 4 and 5 specifically seem removed.

As it is, Dead Endless seems to pass Vito Russo easily (aspect for which I'm greatly thankful, thoug..."

Nope! These are all different tests for various representations. I couldn't find any more broadly related to people of color (as opposed to just women) so 8 is for any other tests people want to discuss!

Also, no one needs to respond to ALL of these, the idea is to think of books that meet different criteria, and maybe discuss the usefulness of the test in checking how inclusive a book is.

(AH I see the confusion, I didn't update that from when I was initially just going to follow the Popsugar thing about the Bechdel test, fixed now!)

A thing I'm noticing is how many books by authors of a certain demographic don't meet the criteria for tests for that demographic.

Like, The Fifth Season meets the Bechdel, Mako Mori, Vito Russo...but notably NOT the Waithe test.

So many by white women I don't think even pass the Bechdel!

Deathless (kind of briefly? But it's related to the man's battle)
Alanna: The First Adventure - there is a conversation between two women but it's definitely not one that does not reference a man.
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone - I'm pretty sure we never see Hermione talk directly to another woman, except to answer questions from the teacher, which I'm not sure counts.

to name a few.

And then there are the number of books that meet the Bechdel, but the women loathe each other, like most urban fantasy, Dragonriders, Remnant Population...

The Honor Harrington series by David Weber actually meets all the tests, which is pretty cool I think.

The only one I was a little unsure about is the Vito Russo (LGBTQIA+) test, I couldn't really remember anyone's sexuality being mentioned apart from the protagonist's (who is mostly asexual/hetero). Now that I've checked: a male admiral's husband is casually mentioned, one of the villains is gay and one of the heroes, as well (Havliceck in Crown of Slaves). So that means it meets the Vito Russo test, as well.

In terms of black women in power and in a healthy relationship: this one's a doozy since Honor lives in a monarchy governed by a black queen (who also appears as a character in the novels) and most society leaders in Honor's world are black (which is a sign of noble birth/upper class).

Bechdel/sex lamp/Mako Mori: the protagonist and about 50% of the other characters are female and they usually talk about the plot, their jobs (defending their kingdom against a war of aggression), their interests and hobbies, politics, strategy, etc.

Duvernay: Protagonist is a person of color, as are most of the other characters.

Villalobos: Honor's best friend and commander of the Marines on her ship is a Latina woman (as are some other characters). I don't remember them having accents.

And Weber never comes across as checking diversity boxes, it all just makes sense and you never notice. For a series written by a man (or two men, later) and started in 1992, that's really impressive (almost all of these aspects are present from the first book).
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Harry Potter series: Hermione has a lot of conversations with other female characters - teachers, Luna Lovegood, Ginny and Molly Weasley, Fleur, Cho, Rita Skeeter, Bellatrix, Narcissa, etc. Almost none of these are about men/boys.

There are fewer such conversations in the movies, but I think the movies all pass, as well, if only barely sometimes.
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Recent novel I read which noticeably didn't meet most of these tests: A Wizard of Earthsea. It only meets the Duvernay and the sexy lamp test and fails all others, including the Bechdel. :-(

Also written by a woman. I really wonder if maybe sometimes, male writers can be much more aware and sensitive about the question of representation and gender roles in their novels, and if perhaps many women have internalized sexism without being very aware of it. (Talking about young Le Guin here, not older Le Guin.)
(This would actually match the situation in my own upbringing, with my mom being very firmly convinced of very sexist attitudes of male superiority (she doesn't even read female writers except when she feels like reading "chick lit trash"), whereas my dad was a passionate feminist who always taught the opposite, empowered me, and saw women as equal or superior. Has anyone had similar experiences?)

Oh yeah, in later books Hermione talks to other women characters but not book 1, I think.

(Also, to be fair, most of the series I mention do get better as they progress in terms of inclusivity, so that's promising!)

I don't think men are more sensitive, necessarily! (For example, I really did not like how women were portrayed in the first Honor Harrington book, at least) I think there is a lot of internalized sexism though, lots of third stage oppressive attitudes, fear that writing as a woman about women who aren't serving men will alienate the audience, being unsure how to write about women without getting yourself lined up for a pink cover with half dressed men on it, etc.

But it is interesting/sad that we're still seeing so much of the systemic disparities being propagated by people in that demographic.

I just asked if "perhaps" a man can "sometimes" be more sensitive than a woman, not if they always are! ;-)

Well yes, of course! Sorry, I extrapolated from your comment that because some women did not do a great job, maybe men can do it better and that's a loaded statement, as I'm sure you know since that's not what you said! The point being, I don't think either gender is inherently better or worse at anything in writing.

I believe Fifth Season does pass the Waithe test. While Syenite is at Meov she is in a healthy polyamorous relationship. It is a brief time but it definitely passes the healthy bar.

I guess an argument could be made that she was just coming into power, but she was no longer an imperial orogene. So I think this time would count as her being "in power".

Now her relationship with Jija is another story. But we never actually "see" them together.

MeaganCM wrote: "I believe Fifth Season does pass the Waithe test. While Syenite is at Meov she is in a healthy polyamorous relationship. It is a brief time but it definitely passes the healthy bar.

I guess an ar..."

That's a good point, I guess I might be weighing one more heavily than others and I don't think that's necessarily fair.

First off, thanks for sharing these lists with us. Most are new to me and imho, will provide a great lens for viewing the world of storytelling going forward.

I wanted to ask why you thought Fifth Season didn't pass the Waithe test. I had a similar thought to MeaganCM and was curious how you interpreted that relationship.

Beige wrote: "First off, thanks for sharing these lists with us. Most are new to me and imho, will provide a great lens for viewing the world of storytelling going forward.

I wanted to ask why you thought Fift..."

Spoiler for Fifth Season and subsequent books!

(view spoiler)[ First we have Syenite and Alabaster, who are basically mated against their will. Then we have Damaya/Syenite and Schaffa, who have a strange relationship that is definitely abusive. Then we have Jija and Essun, whose story is the only one that really progresses throughout the series and which remains unhealthy the entire time we follow the story, and I guess in my view is the relationship that we're really investigating. She does HAVE a healthy relationship, once, but these books aren't about that relationship so much as the one that brings Essun back into the world, and also the Hoa/Essun relationship which is also...kind of sick? And I seem to remember that Tonkee's relationship wasn't terribly supportive, either, or was it just that she dies? Sorry, it has been awhile since I read them. (hide spoiler)]

Allison wrote: "MeaganCM wrote: "I believe Fifth Season does pass the Waithe test. While Syenite is at Meov she is in a healthy polyamorous relationship. It is a brief time but it definitely passes the healthy bar..."

I thought the (view spoiler)[ unhealthy relationship that came after was a logical result of her grief and guilt. A truth worth showing. (hide spoiler)]

@eva
It does bring up questions about the women in my own life. My mother in law fixes everything. She is the builder in the family. But even after 14 years all kitchen related questions she will ask me first. I don't cook. Ever. I also refuse to think about what we need for our dinner because I'm not the one that cooks. I will get the groceries but give me a list.

Somehow this is so alien to her. Her son is amazing in the kitchen, she's always grateful when he cooks for her, but that I'm content with not cooking or thinking about kitchen stuff...

Meanwhile she doesn't acknowledge that in a way she is a complete badass. She was the first in her family who could actually fix stuff in the house. Who could build stuff, raise children, work part-time (also one of the first!) and who cooks. She can do it all. But never ever acknowledges that.

It's weird to see that. Even weirder when she continues to act on gender 'roles' while blowing them away. Part of it is our culture (Calvinism and just act normal than you being strange enough attitude) part is how she was raised.

Back on the topic. One of my favourite book is Kelley Armstrong's Bitten, which is all about the life of a woman after she has been bitten and resenting him ... In fact the only test it passes is the Sexy Lamp Test and only because the story is about her.

HOW!

Now I'm thinking about other books in my collection and which ones they would pass...

@Allison Hurd What have done?! *grmblr* Making me think...

Ha! We keep typing at the same time. I haven't read all of them yet so I just skimmed your response but I see where you're coming from. I was just thinking about 2 experiences of the main character and not the whole story.

Beige wrote: "Allison wrote: "MeaganCM wrote: "I believe Fifth Season does pass the Waithe test. While Syenite is at Meov she is in a healthy polyamorous relationship. It is a brief time but it definitely passes..."

Oh for sure it's well done! I don't think failing any of these tests (well...maybe the sexy lamp test lol) makes for a bad book. I've loved all the books I listed! But it's interesting for me at least to investigate the angles an author takes, to see what they felt was important to include or not include and think about what, if anything, we're absorbing culturally from those decisions.

Ada wrote: "Back on the topic. One of my favourite book is Kelley Armstrong's Bitten, which is all about the life of a woman after she has been bitten and resenting him ... In fact the only test it passes is the Sexy Lamp Test and only because the story is about her.
..."

Haha sorry! Yeah, it's strange when we change our viewpoint how the messages we receive also change! That's exactly what I wanted to think about here :) And again, not that this should change your feelings about a book, I love my books, flaws and all!

Beige wrote: "Ha! We keep typing at the same time. I haven't read all of them yet so I just skimmed your response but I see where you're coming from. I was just thinking about 2 experiences of the main character..."

Yes and it's a totally valid take. I won't argue with that read of it! I'm appreciating folks who bring up alternate takes, it is really cool to see different ways we all can perceive something ^^

Kameron Hurley's Bel Dame series (starting with God's War passes the Bechdel Test, Mako-Mori test, Vito Russo test and the Duvernay test. Kameron Hurley is one of my faves! I think most of her books would pass many of these tests. The The Stars Are Legion has an all lesbian cast (but it is not their defining trait). This book would for sure pass the The Mako-Mori test. But it also passes the Vito Russo test and the bechdel test.

Octavia Butler's Dawn passes the Duvernay test and the waithe test.

Allison wrote: "don't think failing any of these tests (well...maybe the sexy lamp test lol) makes for a bad book. I've loved all the books I listed!.."

Good point. I did seem to jump into defensive mode even when trying not to. Ha!

You also raise a good point about UF. Having spent many years in the genre, I delved more into the indie side and started to question who I was supporting. At times, an author's own insecurities, ignorance and even biases would seep in and break the spell of the story. So far, I'm finding a better calibre of writing in SciFi and still getting my fill of women saving the day :)

MeaganCM wrote: "Kameron Hurley's Bel Dame series (starting with God's War passes the Bechdel Test, Mako-Mori test, Vito Russo test and the Duvernay test. Kameron Hurley is one of my faves! I think m..."

Interesting! Can you please share your thoughts on how Dawn passes those tests?

Beige wrote: "Allison wrote: "don't think failing any of these tests (well...maybe the sexy lamp test lol) makes for a bad book. I've loved all the books I listed!.."

Good point. I did seem to jump into defensi..."

No worries, I really appreciated you pushing back, but I did want to make it clear that I'm not dissing any books that "fail" these tests--I'm firmly in the "can love and still critique" camp :-)

And another interesting point you bring up about genre! Can you give examples or say more about how things have been different for you between UF or F and SF?

I recently read Caliban's War bk 2 of the Expanse series and the introduction of 1 of the 2 new female MCs helped it pass a number of tests.

Chistjen helps the story pass the Bechdel, Mako-Mori, Duvernay and if the Waithe test was broadened to women of colour it would pass that with flying colours too. Not to mention she's in her 70s so bonus point for not having all of the MCs in their 20/30s!

Allison wrote: "Beige wrote: "First off, thanks for sharing these lists with us. Most are new to me and imho, will provide a great lens for viewing the world of storytelling going forward.

I wanted to ask why yo..."

Interesting. I interpreted the waithe test as purely romantic or sexual relationships. So because of that I only evaluated Jija and her polyamorous relationship and since that included (view spoiler)[ Alabaster (hide spoiler)] I did not really think of the initial way their relationship began since it ended up being healthy (at least in the first book). I also discounted much of Jija and Essun's relationship because it is not really depicted on the page and the actual time they were together was healthy. He did not (view spoiler)[ snap and become a monster until after he found out Uche was an orogene (hide spoiler)]. And after that she was not with Jija any more just obsessed with finding him (although that can be considered unhealthy).

If it is expanded to all of her relationships, then I do not think it would pass the waithe test.

Allison wrote: "And another interesting point you bring up about genre! Can you give examples or say more about how things have been different for you between UF or F and SF?..."

In UF, I find that the authors struggle (with varying degrees) to balance the fantasy and the romance elements. So while the end of the world is nigh, you can sometimes see pages devoted to relationship angst. Also, if the MCs have any friends they are usually there to dish about their relationship problems. Rarely the heroine seeks help from other women about the plot itself, it's almost always men she turns to. Even my favourite series, Kate Daniels was sometimes guilty of these issues. In SF, I was pleased with Trading in Danger. It had the mystery, female pov and feel of a UF, without any of the relationship pitfalls.

Also, there is a lot of what comes across as tokenism. while there maybe characters of colour or varying sexual orientations, their perspectives and experiences are rarely brought to life. In Tempting Danger I thought it would be refreshing to read an Asian American MC, in the end, without her cooky Asian grandmother, you'd have assumed she was white. True Blood the TV show had some great black characters, but those were invented by the show's writers. In the Sookie Stackhouse series, Sookie was friendless maybe because she was always busy cleaning her house nonstop? Which the author needed to include detailed descriptions of, regardless of how many lives were at risk ;)

In SF, I've witnessed situations as dire as those in UF, but with additional layers and nuance. Different cultures, genders, classes and questions of ethics and morality are explored. Which all make for a richer experience.

Beige wrote: "Allison wrote: "And another interesting point you bring up about genre! Can you give examples or say more about how things have been different for you between UF or F and SF?..."

In UF, I find tha..."

Very thoughtful reply, thank you for adding this :D

Yeah, I wouldn't say that male writers are more sensitive to questions regarding representation but maybe that they're more willing to include minorities at the risk of playing to stereotypes or by having everyone being the same whilst using non-European names and giving the occasional character a perma tan.

The first few books in the Honor Harrington series are good, but the series fails in regard to representation by lacking in cultural diversity.

I'm glad Beige mentioned The Expanse as it's great at both showcasing cultural differences without making them feel exotic or tokenistic.

Representation focused on the aesthetic and anatomical doesn't add depth (for me). A story with a black woman and an Asian trans man doesn't mean much if they both act as stereotypical middle class white men. Doing representation well makes for a more enjoyable read than ensuring that a story passes all the tests mentioned (Not that anyone here is saying that stories should pass them all).

Well said, Ryan! And a great reminder that just like "failing" the tests doesn't mean the book is bad, "passing" isn't necessarily an indication of cultural sensitivity or inclusion either!

I now definitely have a new fav test: the sexy lamp! XD - and my first reaction was "Ringworld doesn't pass this one", but I guess that's being unfair. There were one or two occasions where the bimbo made some sense.

wouldn't Seveneves pass 1, 2 & 3?

and the main character in Remnant Population fit #7? Her name is definitely Hispanic or Spanish

CBRetriever wrote: "wouldn't Seveneves pass 1, 2 & 3?

and the main character in Remnant Population fit #7? Her name is definitely Hispanic or Spanish"

I can't speak to Seveneves, but RemPop we never really learn her ethnic origin (and I think something has to be forgiven in a far future where the patch of Earth your family name originated from is trillions of miles from where you lived your life!), but she's not educated or a professional.

Not that Wikipedia is always correct, but they: "The narrative concentrates on Ofelia Falfurrias. Ofelia's age is not given. It is stated that she and her husband spend "some time" undergoing training/education before being accepted as colonists after they get married. They might have married at 18 and spend 2 years in training, or got married at 20 and spent 5 years in training. Exact numbers are not given, however she references herself as nearly eighty years old during a self-appraisal in the mirror. All one needs to know is that she is "Grandmother" age by the time the narrative starts. "

I would say that they were "educated" a bit above the norm for the planet they came from

does she consider herself educated?

that I don't remember

"Does she consider herself educated?" is a wonderful question. Self determination FTW!

I recently read an article about underestimating the intelligence of trees, which (Western) science is only now "discovering" after centuries of indigenous peoples claims of it existing being ignored and/or mocked. Who determines what accounts for education and intelligence is a topic of some interest to me as is what passes for professionalism (too often a strict adherence to rules despite personal misgivings and comfort ala a robot).

You can't speak a language without an accent so to say someone doesn't have an accent is to actually say that they speak with the same accent as yourself.

Methinks that the Villalobos test needs revising/clarifying!

http://m.nautil.us/issue/77/underworl...

There is a list on Goodreads called "Speculative Fiction that Passes the Bechdel Test" that is quite interesting.

Ryan, that's a cool article! It would also do well in our "Science that Sounds Fictional" thread--very otherworldly seeming, I think.

And I agree that the Villalobos test is a bit open to interpretation! I don't think the Villalobos test is as well accepted as the Bechdel, but I think the intent (but I could be wrong and welcome other thoughts!) is that the creator of the test was looking for Latina women who were not immigrants to whatever nation they lived in, and who were in positions that demand respect, and weren't "exotic" or otherwise fetishized.

Leticia, cool! Any that really stood out to you in any way??

Chessie, I pushed a bit because as I read RemPop, the plot was sort of dependent on her being overlooked (or feeling overlooked) because she was a woman, a colonist, old, and not very educated. But of course that's just my take!

I liked The Handmaid's Tale and The Mists of Avalon very much even if people don't like Marion Zimmer Bradley. Both books talk strongly from women's POV/worldviews and that is something I really enjoy in books. I also liked the Kate Daniels urban fantasy series by Ilona Andrews quite a lot, it has a very nice female MC. And the series starting with The Golden Compass (His Dark Materials, #1) was very interesting too.
From the list I didn't like Written in Red (The Others, #1)
by Anne Bishop, because the relationship between the MCs was weird. Rosemary and Rue (October Daye, #1) by Seanan McGuire was also not a great book, I started the series but didn't feel like going past the second book.

Ok, if I go one commenting all the books I read on this list this will be a very long post.

In cases like Ofelia's, I don't like applying the tests. They're too specific. I think the main thing that makes me happy about well-developed characters is that they are individual people, with their own dreams, fears, destinies, and challenges.... The more well-developed the character, the more likely zie is to pass the tests' actual intents.

Ofelia, in *my* take, would pass as educated, because they likelihood is that she feels especially unappreciated in part *because* she has an education and feels like her efforts to get it aren't appreciated. That's my take, because I've felt that way often irl.

The point though, imo, is that she's a complex person, real enough to generate these kinds of discussions, and therefore would not be someone the fans of those tests should object too.

After all, in the far future, will we still be divided into our current ethnic/ "color"/ culture groups? Many of these tests are simply Not Applicable in many SF stories.

The Psychology of Time Travel sets its gender default to 'female' in the way a lot of classic sci-fi set it to 'male'---which means it passes a lot of these tests. Definitely the Bechdel test, but also (hang on, I need to scroll up) sexy lamp, Mako-Mori, Vito-Russel, and possibly Waithe, depending on how you define 'in power'. Certainly if power is defined as agency, rather than control over other people, then it passes. It may also pass the Villalobos test, simply by virtue of having a lot of educated, intelligent women in it who are not at all sexualized, and one or more of them may have been Latina. There were just so many, I can't remember!

It's a very subtly but strongly feminist book, because it doesn't explicitly talk about gender inequality; it just does it without comment. I really, really enjoyed it.

Ergative wrote: "The Psychology of Time Travel sets its gender default to 'female' in the way a lot of classic sci-fi set it to 'male'---which means it passes a lot of these tests. Definitely the Bechdel test, but ..."

Absolutely! Wonderful book, indeed!

Btw, esp. in SF, I already apply a version of the vito russo to all characters. Does it matter what shape, color, age, gender, species, orientation..., is filling this role? If so, why? Is the story about them as representative or influenced by some characteristic or group affiliation? If not, then it shouldn't matter what language their parents spoke, which bathroom they use, whether they breathe oxygen or chlorine.

Imo, all the tests could be re-written to be the same test. They're basically just a checklist, and over-reliance on them will put the blinkers back on readers.

I hope I explained myself clearly. I've not had breakfast yet, though, so if I messed up how I said something please ask for clarification before telling me I'm wrong. :)

Ergative wrote: "The Psychology of Time Travel sets its gender default to 'female' in the way a lot of classic sci-fi set it to 'male'---which means it passes a lot of these tests. Definitely the Bechdel test, but ..."

Ooh, sounds interesting. Added to my tbr, thanks!

Cheryl, I don't fully follow your reasoning, or if I do, I don't think I agree with it. You seem to be suggesting that there's no purpose in including diverse characters in our stories unless the story is *about* their group affiliation. But why? Can't we have Indian lesbians, or middle-aged Philippino women, or disabled Maori characters fill the roles of those scientists and explorers, without needing to justify their identity?

If in fact you are suggesting exactly this---that we *should* be able to have a book populated entirely by middle-aged Philippino women, without worrying about failing both the Waithe and Villalobos tests---then I agree. My concern, though, is that if every writer adopted this point of view, they would (consciously or unconsciously) start to rely on default characters to populate their books, and those defaults are usually straight white dudes in their 20s-30s. Until that default is no longer so influential, these tests serve not as a checklist, but as a reminder: Does this politician need to be a man? Does this commanding officer need to be able-bodied? Does this scientist need to be white? Does this love interest need to be straight?

We will always have clumsy writing and representation in our books. I would rather that the clumsiness err on the side of diversity than erring on the side of homogeneity.

Cheryl, absolutely! Ofelia was a great character, and as I've said and will continue to maintain, these tests are just interesting thought experiments, not particularly illustrative of any "point."

I think one of the reasons I periodically think about the tests is that they tend to be made by people from within a group who are seeing trends I might not see myself. For example, when I saw Wonder Woman, I was so happy to see women of color among the Themiscyrans, and see them hold power etc. But then my black women friends pointed out that each of the three we see actually play into a trope I hadn't realized was something that they saw regularly and that grated on them. So, over-reliance would be bad, but doing a pulse check to see what is considered over done or harmful in ways my personal viewpoint wouldn't catch is something I find valuable :)

Ergative wrote: "Cheryl, I don't fully follow your reasoning, or if I do, I don't think I agree with it. You seem to be suggesting that there's no purpose in including diverse characters in our stories unless the s..."

A prime example of why I wish there was a 'like' function for comments. Very well said.

Ergative wrote: " we *should* be able to have a book populated entirely by middle-aged Philippino women, without worrying about failing both the Waithe and Villalobos tests..."

This is more of what I mean, yes. At the same time, I do see the point of being more inclusive, for sure. And for taking into account the perspective of the people who created each of the tests. Yes.

And yet. I think these tests apply more to near future SF and to popular fiction. Part of the reason that I, as a queer female, read a lot of far future SF is so that I can explore *other* ideas than race/creed/gender etc. And so that I can explore worlds in which those things truly don't matter.

I'm really all for 'judge by the content of their character not by the color of their skin.' Yes, I do get the point of César Chávez's call: "We need to help students and parent cherish and preserve the ethnic and cultural diversity that nourishes and strengthens this community--and this nation.”

But the thing is, at this point we're becoming more splintered, not more strengthened. Every time we turn around, it seems, there's a new 'group' of people not represented by the rules. Do ppl who identify as non-binary gendered really want to be lumped with that big long LGBTQIA+? Am I insulting those ppl by self-identifying as Queer, and using that term instead, for myself? And where's the test for Native Americans? Or for Aboriginal Australians, for that matter? How long can we keep up with all the rules?

For YA and children's books about Native ppl of North America, I get the newsletter from Debbie Reese. Her evaluations are very thoughtful, mostly centered on OwnVoices. And I've gotten pretty good at understanding what she's trying to teach those of us who are not Native, by reading some of her recommendations and comparing them to books that she does not recommend. This kind of thoughtfulness is much better than checklists.

No novel will ever pass every test, especially as we develop more tests so that no group feels left out. So what we need to do is develop our sense of empathy and our ability to listen and to *try* to understand each *individuals* point of view.

The other problem with these rules are written by people purporting to represent members of a certain 'group' of people. Again, the vocal people get the attention - but are they truly representing those ppl that they think they are?

For example. Maybe there are some Black people who want to see more color-blind books in which the ethnicity of the characters' parents is absolutely not relevant... but we who are not Black do not know if there are or not unless we actually *listen*to the *own voices* and try to understand *individual* real people in the real world.