Reading the 20th Century discussion

If you cannot speak truth at a beheading, when can you speak it?

England, May 1536. Anne Boleyn is dead, decapitated in the space of a heartbeat by a hired French executioner. As her remains are bundled into oblivion, Thomas Cromwell breakfasts with the victors. The blacksmith’s son from Putney emerges from the spring’s bloodbath to continue his climb to power and wealth, while his formidable master, Henry VIII, settles to short-lived happiness with his third queen. Cromwell is a man with only his wits to rely on; he has no great family to back him, no private army. Despite rebellion at home, traitors plotting abroad and the threat of invasion testing Henry’s regime to breaking point, Cromwell’s robust imagination sees a new country in the mirror of the future. But can a nation, or a person, shed the past like a skin? Do the dead continually unbury themselves? What will you do, the Spanish ambassador asks Cromwell, when the king turns on you, as sooner or later he turns on everyone close to him?

With The Mirror and the Light, Hilary Mantel brings to a triumphant close the trilogy she began with Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies. She traces the final years of Thomas Cromwell, the boy from nowhere, who climbs to the heights of power, offering a defining portrait of predator and prey, of a ferocious contest between present and past, between royal will and a common man’s vision: of a modern nation making itself through conflict, passion and courage.

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

So, I have opened a spoiler thread, so those of us who embark on this long novel, can happily discuss spoilers.

This starts with the execution of Anne Boleyn and Thomas Wyatt still in the Tower.

Only in the first chapter, but some delightful interchanges already. Brandon to Cromwell: "You read ME a lesson? Me, a Peer of the Realm and you... from where you come from?"

Yes, absolutely. Good to have 'Call Me,' back and already lots of intrigue.

Great quote Susan.


The credible dialogue is a part of what makes these books so powerful and enjoyable. Hilary M really nails the intrigue of court life and the barely concealed tensions just below the surface.

Sorry Susan just edited a typo and got our contributions out of order

No problem. Looking forward to discussing this with everyone.

And those glorious two opening lines: 'Once the queen's head is severed, he walks away. A sharp pang of appetite reminds him that it is time for a second breakfast' - blurgh!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you open a book


Thanks RC

I was worried about Gregory, but he did well.

I was also worried about Gregory and though he restrains his feelings on the outside, there's still that sense that there's no way he's thinking about breakfast.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Mantel conceives the Anne of Cleves situation.

Yes, Chapuys doesn't think Jane will last that long, does he? While there is no heir, there is, of course, also the jockeying for position and hope that Mary/Elizabeth/HenryFitzRoy could inherit the throne.

And Mantel doesn't seem to think much of her, either - I've been giggling at the scene in Hackney where Henry and Jane meet Mary... and Jane's too busy eating her trout pasty to listen to what's going on around her.

Yes and Henry disconsolately suggests the Ambassadors are reporting her as plain.

I have just got to the bit where Lady Rochford is recalled back to Court, which I am delighted about.

Ooh, I'm not there yet - something to look forward to!

I have just got to the part where Cromwell meets Wolsey's daughter, Dorothea, at a convent. Anyone read that yet?

Not yet, sounds fascinating. I'm just past the death of Richmond and the titles and land are being distributed. I loved the appearance of Kate Latimer aka Katherine Parr.

I've just got to Dorothea so must be about an hour behind you, Susan.

I must be ahead of you now then. I am past Jane's death, but still have 360 pages to go. I had very high expectations and so far there is no disappointment.

I am listening on Audible and don't get time for more than one, or two, chapters a day. I am not in a rush though, so I am happy to take my time.

I thought the scene with Dorothea was brilliantly done. Cromwell's realisation that his complete loyalty to Wolsey was not accepted will, I feel, change him.

I've just got to the Dorothea scene - very powerful


The whole book is so episodic it's quite hard to discuss however each episode is magnificent and, over the course of the three books, you pull away and it's a perfect tapestry - so rich in detail and inventiveness.

It really is brilliant, isn't it? I like Norfolk, champing on the sidelines!

It retains all the elements that made the first two parts so good. I love the way we retreat into Cromwell's memories at key moments.

Nigeyb wrote: "The whole book is so episodic it's quite hard to discuss however each episode is magnificent"

Yes, episodic is a good description. I'm finding it sagging a bit with the Pilgrimage of Grace, though there are some lovely scenes back at court to compensate.

We've mentioned that Cromwell is haunted by his dead; seems now that Henry is too.

Susan wrote: "It really is brilliant, isn't it? I like Norfolk, champing on the sidelines!"

Or Norferk, as Eustache Chapuys would say ;))

Yes, or 'Cremwell.' I think "Crum," is my fave. I loved the King using, 'Call Me,' and they were, "how did he know?!" Henry was quite sneaky - just dropping that in there...

Susan wrote: "I loved the King using, 'Call Me,' and they were, "how did he know?!"

Yes! It's precisely these tiny touches that have me grinning.

Finished! Looking forward to discussing details when you lovely people have finished.

Bravo RC


I'm into Part Five now.

I thought I'd finish this weekend but I now think it will be later in the week.

Just started part 6, will definitely finish later today.

Finished now, but it will take a while to decide how to review it. An extraordinary book even by the standards of the first two parts.

I look forward to your review Hugh. It certainly is extraordinary.

Well said, Hugh: I also slept before posting my review. Those last 100 or so pages are *magnificent*.

Hi all, was wondering if anyone can help me. Page 292 ‘Anthony walks through Austin friars ringing his new silver bells...’ - who is this Anthony, I can find no other reference and it is driving me crazy!

Tom wrote: "Hi all, was wondering if anyone can help me. Page 292 ‘Anthony walks through Austin friars ringing his new silver bells...’ - who is this Anthony, I can find no other reference and it is driving me..."
Sorry - I can't help with that one. A very minor character so probably not a real person.

I decided to keep my review relatively short and concentrate on personal impressions.

Wonderful review Hugh - although I've not yet finished, I am confident I will be able to just copy and paste your review and thereby save a bit of time

Tom wrote: "Hi all, was wondering if anyone can help me. Page 292 ‘Anthony walks through Austin friars ringing his new silver bells...’ - who is this Anthony, I can find no other reference and it is driving me..."

My approach is not to worry about who is who. The cast of characters is so dizzying that I found it impossible to remember them all. I don't think it really matters - but your comment suggests you like to track every single character no matter how fleeting or obscure. Do you keep a list?

Tom wrote: "Hi all, was wondering if anyone can help me. Page 292 ‘Anthony walks through Austin friars ringing his new silver bells...’ - who is this Anthony, I can find no other reference"

Anthony is his fool: "His jester Anthony comes to him: ‘Sir, when was it heard of, that a man was fool to the Lord Privy Seal, and was not hung with silver bells?’" (p.272)

Haha, he gets his bells!

Hugh wrote: "I decided to keep my review relatively short and concentrate on personal impressions."

I intended to keep mine short too then before I knew it had written loads! As an aside, I prefer personal impression reviews.

I'm into part six now - the end is nigh


#mixedemotions

Thank you all for you help, of course the fool! Finished this morning, sublime.

It was, wasn't it, Tom?

I have finally finished this - I ended up reading it in bursts between other books. I thought it was brilliant but must say I preferred the first two books, partly because the Anne Boleyn story was more compelling. I don't think Jane or Anna come alive as characters in the way that she does.

I also found it impossible to sympathise much with Cromwell by this time, after all the torture and deaths he has caused, although of course the wait for death and the hope that Henry may still relent are moving in themselves.

Good to hear you loved this too, Judy. I'm not sure that I'd say that I ever sympathised with Cromwell even in the earlier books, though I love his sardonic inner commentary on everything.

It's such a brilliantly rounded portrait, though, that his fictional character has taken on a life of its own, and it can be hard to remember that it *is* fiction which is a tremendous achievement

Roman Clodia wrote:


".....it can be hard to remember that it *is* fiction which is a tremendous achievement"

Absolutely. It's completey immersive and wholly credible

I would agree that the Anne Boleyn story was more compelling. However, making Cromwell sympathetic, shall we say, with both Jane Seymour and Mary, was inspired. It gave the whole storyline a personal, as well as a historical, resonance. Absolute brilliance - and, oh, the ending. As RC says, you are so invested by that point, it feels like a real bereavement...

Susan wrote: "I would agree that the Anne Boleyn story was more compelling. However, making Cromwell sympathetic, shall we say, with both Jane Seymour and Mary, was inspired. It gave the whole storyline a person..."

Definitely, and the accusations of him trying to have relationships with Mary and Margaret Douglas seemed a bit like poetic justice/tragic irony given the way he helped to cook up Anne Boleyn's supposed relationships.

I do agree that it's a brilliant portrait - some time in the future I will be interested to read a biography of Cromwell and see how much is known of his real life, but not just yet.

It's a small thing but it stumped me so I thought I'd ask: on p. 757 (4th Estate edition), in the middle of the chapter 'Magnificence', "the Duke of Suffolk is still seated at the council board. He rocks to and fro on his stool. 'Poor Harry, poor Harry,' he moans. Tears course down his cheeks." I love this book but this scene confuses me. Why is Suffolk so over the top upset here? Can someone enlighten me? Thanks.

The Duke of Suffolk is Henry's brother-in-law as well as a close friend, so he is not a career courtier (unlike the rest of the council). I haven't gone back to the book to check, but I think Mantel is highlighting the difference between Suffolk's personal closeness to Henry and those others. Calling him Harry, instead of Henry or the King, also indicates a close friendship. I think Suffolk is quite emotional on other occasions as well.

There's a good article about Anne Boleyn's death in the latest issue of BBC History Magazine - it's by Tracy Borman, who has been working on a forthcoming Channel 5 series, The Fall of Anne Boleyn - I will be interested to see it after reading Mantel's trilogy. I will also look up Borman's books. (I was able to read the article on PressReader which I can get access to via my library - the magazine may also be on Kindle Unlimited.)