Classics for Beginners discussion

This thread will discuss chapters 17-32.

Chapter 18 (view spoiler)[ Esther appears to have a strong connection to Lady Dedlock. Could she be remembering the "shadows of the past" and be recognizing her unknown mother?

And could Lady Dedlock's unseemly interest in the dead legal scribe (which was fired by her seeing his hand writing) be indicative that this individual may be Esther's father.

Dickens seems to be building the evidence that way, but it may one of his twists and turns. Pip was convinced that Miss Havisham was his benefactress in Great Expectations.

Esther loves John Jarndyce as a father and secretly hopes that he would be so. Yet John seems to have confirmed that he only knows what little Esther already knows about herself. Either John is not Esther's father or does not realize it. It would seem out of character for John to hide the fact from Esther.

Richard seems to be developing an almost Skimpolean approach to life. His expectation of a positive settlement to Jarndyce and Jarndyce will probably be a grand disappointment. The lad is becoming much of a source of east wind for John. (hide spoiler)]

I agree with everything you commented on. I am stuck on this chapter because Skimpole is talking...LOL.

Skimpole is a very smart idiot. I hope something nasty happens to him. I don't understand John's tolerance of him. Talk about east wind.

So do I. I hate people who take advantage of others, but act like they are doing everyone a favor because they are personable.

☯Emily wrote: "So do I. I hate people who take advantage of others, but act like they are doing everyone a favor because they are personable."

Excellent description!

Ah, those east winds! Your comment made me chuckle Henry.

I don't recall Skimpole playing a particularly large role, so once you get through this chapter Emily you likely won't see him again for ages and ages.

What are both your thoughts on Mr Guppy? I found him quite amusing.

Chapter 19. I love this description of Chadband the "Vessel" and his verbosity and gluttony:

The persecutors denied that there was any particular gift in Mr Chadband’s piling verbose flights of stairs, one upon another, after this fashion. But this can only be received as a proof of their determination to persecute, since it must be within everybody’s experience, that the Chadband style of oratory is widely received and much admired.

Mr Chadband, however, having concluded for the present, sits down at Mrs Snagsby’s table, and lays about him prodigiously. The conversion of nutriment of any sort into oil of the quality already mentioned, appears to be a process so inseparable from the constitution of this exemplary vessel, that in beginning to eat and drink, he may be described as always becoming a kind of considerable Oil Mills, or other large factory for the production of that article on a wholesale scale. On the present evening of the long vacation, in Cook’s Court, Cursitor Street, he does such a powerful stroke of business, that the warehouse appears to be quite full when the works cease.

Dickens, Charles (2003-03-27). Bleak House (Penguin Classics) (p. 233). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.


In all fairness I must consign the staircase model as applicable to Dickens' writing as it is to Chadband's oratory. Some of his descriptions can go up many floors.

I tried to listen to a couple of chapters while on a two hour drive yesterday. Too many characters thrown at you with all that flowery language, I quickly got lost (in the book not driving). Will have to read/listen to the section again.

I'm taking a little break and moving on to the Feb read. As with Little Dorrit (which I read last year) not sure I'm really enjoying this one.

Kim, I have completed chapter 18! It took me two weeks to read one page in chapter 18. Now I have forgotten why Mr. Snagsby gave Jo some money.

Chapter 19 was more interesting and revealed another link to Esther and her early life. Everyone tells me the book gets better as we go further along.

RitaSkeeter, I enjoy Mr. Guppy also. I'm wondering if his dream of marrying Esther will be realized. Somehow, I don't think so.

☯Emily wrote: "Kim, I have completed chapter 18! It took me two weeks to read one page in chapter 18. Now I have forgotten why Mr. Snagsby gave Jo some money.

Chapter 19 was more interesting and revealed another link to Esther and her early life. Everyone tells me the book gets better as we go further along."

I'll probably pick it up again in a few weeks. I've been listening to the audiobook as well, but even that isn't helping my progress much.

Chapter 20 and 21. (view spoiler)[ In these two chapters we get introduced to several new characters...good grief does the stream of characters ever end? We have Smallweed and Jobling/Weevel. I am fascinated with Jobling's copper plate impressions of the Divinities of Albion, Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty. An image search revealed no tangible results. A web search revealed many sites that discuss the section but revealed no location for such a gallery. I gathered that this was not an established collection in a museum but Dickens' satirical commentary on commercially available art perhaps a bit on the seedy side. A tame Victorian version of Vargas?

So who is Jobling and why is he hiding?

Then we have the entire Smallweed family and Mr. George. Who was Captain Hawdon, and who is the hidden money lending friend in the city or is he just a threat that the lame Smallweed uses to instill fear into his borrowers.

A lot of questions and few answers. This book could use an appendix listing the characters. (hide spoiler)]

I was aghast that there were even more characters in this long-winded story. I did like enjoy the portrayal of Smallwood's grandparents.

There are a lot of characters, as with other 19th century novels, but eventually you get to know them all. It is like being thrust into a new family/community/city/country - you meet so many new people but you don't expect yourself to remember all their names at first, but eventually you start to feel at home.

Theresa wrote: "There are a lot of characters, as with other 19th century novels, but eventually you get to know them all. It is like being thrust into a new family/community/city/country - you meet so many new p..."

I don't know every time I start getting a handle on the characters, Dickens dumps 6 more into the fray! Then he goes back 15 chapters and polishes the ones you haven't heard about for a while.

Chapter 24 Page 306 (view spoiler)[ I completely forgot about Mrs. Rachael, the housekeeper at Esther's godmother's home, way at the beginning of the book. I thought it odd that Mrs. Chadband knew Esther during the conversation with Mr. Guppy after Jo and the constable interrupted the dinner at Snagsby's. I overlooked the name when Mr. Chadband said "Rachael pay the eightpence" on page 232. Esther meeting her at the court on page 306 straightened that out for me. (hide spoiler)]

I am not sure of whether Dickens' invents words to meet his requirements or if the nineteenth century just had a rich assortment to choose from that have fallen into disuse. In chapter 25, on page 313 Mr. Snagsby is keeping a tender double tooth of a secret which Mrs. Snagsby wishes to twist out of his head thus giving her a dentistical presence."

Henry wrote: "Chapter 24 Page 306 [spoilers removed]

I am not sure of whether Dickens' invents words to meet his requirements or if the nineteenth century just had a rich assortment to choose from that have fal..."

I struggled with that phrase also!

Without the characters guide at the beginning of my copy I would be completely lost! I really like Esther's narratives, but I get so bored with the other characters!

Emily wrote: "Without the characters guide at the beginning of my copy I would be completely lost! I really like Esther's narratives, but I get so bored with the other characters!"

Hmmm. I should check my copy for such a guide. I usually find such things when I am done with a book.

Well I looked and found no such list. It is a Kindle version and does have some X-ray support but I have found doing searches worked best.

I think if I were starting afresh I would make my own list as a note in the front of the book.

I like Esther's narrative the best as well. She keeps an intelligible dialogue without the Dickens' penchant for over flowery description.

Wikipedia has a character listing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleak_House

Scroll down about 1/3 of the way through the article to Major Characters and Minor Characters. I can't promise there may not be spoilers in this list.

Chapter 27. I love Mr. George's seeking "Mr Bagnet's" advice regarding providing the hand writing sample.

I especially enjoyed their discussion of the "old girl."

‘George,’ says Mr Bagnet. ‘You know me. It’s my old girl that advises. She has the head. But I never own to it before her. Discipline must be maintained. Wait till the greens is off her mind. Then, we’ll consult. Whatever the old girl says, do – do it!’

‘I intend to, Mat,’ replies the other. ‘I would sooner take her opinion than that of a college.’

Dickens, Charles (2003-03-27). Bleak House (Penguin Classics) (pp. 341-342). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

‘She is a treasure!’ exclaims Mr George.

‘She’s more. But I never own to it before her. Discipline must be maintained. It was the old girl that brought out my musical abilities. I should have been in the artillery now, but for the old girl. Six years I hammered at the fiddle. Ten at the flute. The old girl said it wouldn’t do; intention good, but want of flexibility; try the bassoon. The old girl borrowed a bassoon from the bandmaster of the Rifle Regiment. I practised in the trenches. Got on, got another, get a living by it!’

George remarks that she looks as fresh as a rose, and as sound as an apple.

‘The old girl,’ says Mr Bagnet in reply, ‘is a thoroughly fine woman. Consequently, she is like a thoroughly fine day. Gets finer as she gets on. I never saw the old girl’s equal. But I never own to it before her. Discipline must be maintained!’

Dickens, Charles (2003-03-27). Bleak House (Penguin Classics) (p. 342). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

So dinner is made, consumed, and cleaned up and then the "old girl" finally sits in the parlor.

That old girl reappearing by and by, quite fresh, and sitting down to her needlework, then and only then – the greens being only then to be considered as entirely off her mind – Mr Bagnet requests the trooper to state his case.

This, Mr George does with great discretion; appearing to address himself to Mr Bagnet, but having an eye solely on the old girl all the time, as Bagnet has himself. She, equally discreet, busies herself with her needlework. The case fully stated, Mr Bagnet resorts to his standard artifice for the maintenance of discipline.

‘That’s the whole of it, is it, George?’ says he.

‘That’s the whole of it.’

‘You act according to my opinion?’

‘I shall be guided,’ replies George, ‘entirely by it.’

‘Old girl,’ says Mr Bagnet, ‘give him my opinion. You know it. Tell him what it is.’

It is, that he cannot have too little to do with people who are too deep for him, and cannot be too careful of interference with matters he does not understand; that the plain rule is, to do nothing in the dark, to be a party to nothing under-handed or mysterious, and never to put his foot where he cannot see the ground. This, in effect, is Mr Bagnet’s opinion as delivered through the old girl; and it so relieves Mr George’s mind, by confirming his own opinion and banishing his doubts, that he composes himself to smoke another pipe on that exceptional occasion, and to have a talk over old times with the whole Bagnet family, according to their various ranges of experience.

Dickens, Charles (2003-03-27). Bleak House (Penguin Classics) (p. 343). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

One of the great fortunes of my life is to have married an "old girl" of my own. I have benefitted much through her wisdom such as given here. Unlike Mr. Bagnet, I feel no need to maintain discipline...both of us know and acknowledge where the wisdom lies in our marriage, and the discipline is in good order.

Very nice! Did your "old girl" approve your posting?

☯Emily wrote: "Very nice! Did your "old girl" approve your posting?"

No. She often gives me enough rope to hang myself, then saves me from the gallows, and discipline is maintained.

Chapter 28 (view spoiler)[ Dickens hints strongly that Lady Dedlock may be Esther's mother. From that I wonder is Lady Dedlock's attachment to Rosa a transference of the love that she may feel missing from apparently giving up her child?

Also this skulking about over Nemo, could he be Esther's father? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 29 (view spoiler)[

‘O my child, my child! Not dead in the first hours of her life, as my cruel sister told me; but sternly nurtured by her, after she had renounced me and my name! O my child, O my child!’

Dickens, Charles (2003-03-27). Bleak House (Penguin Classics) (p. 364). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Lady Dedlock and Nemo aka Captain Hawdon are Esther's parents.

So Esther's godmother forcibly separated Lady Dedlock (before she was Lady Dedlock) and Esther at birth.

What can be Tulkinghorn's plans? Does he have something up his sleeve or is he simply looking out for Sir Leicester's best interests?

Mr Guppy's visit cleared up much mystery.

Earlier, Tulkinghorn's outburst at Mr. George over the hiding of Gridley seemed out of character. Surely Tulkinghorn did not think Gridley to be a genuine threat. Something is up with this guy.
(hide spoiler)]

Henry wrote: "Chapter 28"

That is what I am thinking also.

End of Chapter 32 (view spoiler)[ Krook dies of spontaneous combustion, the unexplained phenomena of human beings suddenly bursting into flames for no apparent reason. The process is well understood with oily rags and so forth, but lore has it that human beings can spontaneously combust as well and no one knows why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontane...

I knew as a child this would be my fate. My father subscribed to True Magazine and according to him all the stories were true. Well True had an article on human spontaneous combustion and by God if it was in True it had to be true. I figured I would never see the age of 20. Well I am pushing 66 and still as of yet have to go up in smoke, or know of anyone who has done so.

One of my great fears now as an adult with one foot in the doorway of the golden years is that I will lose my "old girl." So in the past while I feared spontaneous combustion now I look forward to it. On the old girl's 100th birthday, I'll be 104, we are going to have a roll in the hay and at the big moment, you know the one, that moment that is on 6 different articles on the cover of Cosmo every month, we are going to burst into flames and be reduced to a pair of melted together skeletons in a rather compromising position in a matter of seconds. What a way to go.

(hide spoiler)]

Lol. Loving your commentary Henry - I think it might be better than the book!

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Lol. Loving your commentary Henry - I think it might be better than the book!"

Well one thing I have in common with Dickens is that I am way too verbose. At least Dickens got paid by the word. Me? It is just being full of BS.

It's never too late to pursue a career in writing; then your plans above will really hit the front page!

I'm excited to start this part tomorrow so I can read everyone's comments.

RebeccaS wrote: "I'm excited to start this part tomorrow so I can read everyone's comments."

I have found these chapters in part 2 to be more interesting than the first part.

Up through chapter 20
(view spoiler)[
Hmm so Janrdyce doesn't know anything about Ester's parents? I find it pretty hard to believe that he took her in as ward without any other information. I have a feeling that Lady Dedlock is her mother and maybe had her with someone other than Lord Dedlock? I seems like that's what Dickins is really hinting at a lot.

I wonder why Janrdyce is so unhappy about Richard wanting to become a lawyer.

It's also interesting that Mr. Guppy wanted to learn more about Mr. Crook. I guess he thinks that Mr. Tulkinghorn was murdered. (hide spoiler)]

RebeccaS wrote: "Up through chapter 21"

(view spoiler)[Jarndyce's kindness to Esther seemed a bit far fetched to me as well. A stranger comes up and describes a situation and he does all this?

Jarndyce has pretty much been run through the wringer by lawyers with the Jarndyce and Jarndyce, watching them and the Chancellory consume a king's ransom of the estate in costs, so it is not surprising that he would have some reservations about Richard becoming one. That said however, I don't think he is so concerned about Richard becoming a lawyer as he is that Richard's lackadaisical attitude...none of this really matters because soon there will be a judgement...is misguided. One doesn't dabble in becoming a lawyer. Richard shows little backbone to settle down and become responsible. (hide spoiler)]

I agree that Jarndyce is concerned about Richard's attitude toward his career. Richard acts like a small child who one day pretends to be a doctor and the next day pretends to be a lawyer. Richard is more interested in treading water until the judgement in the lawsuit is decided. (view spoiler)[ I am not sure what Rebecca means when she says Mr. Tulkinghorn was murdered. Is that a typo? (hide spoiler)]

☯Emily wrote: "I agree that Jarndyce is concerned about Richard's attitude toward his career. Richard acts like a small child who one day pretends to be a doctor and the next day pretends to be a lawyer. Richard..."

(view spoiler)[I didn't follow the part about Tulkinghorn either, but it has been a while since I was back at Chapter 21 and I didn't want to inadvertently create a spoiler. (hide spoiler)]

Whoops you are right Emily! Ugh so many characters to remember. I actually was referring to the scribe that died in Mr. Krook's lodging house. It's been a little while since I read the first part and for some reason his name popped into my head while I was typing.

I should write down a list of all the different characters. Listening to the audiobook is making it harder.

RebeccaS wrote: "Whoops you are right Emily! Ugh so many characters to remember. I actually was referring to the scribe that died in Mr. Krook's lodging house. It's been a little while since I read the first part...

I should write down a list of all the different characters. Listening to the audiobook is making it harder.
"

Rebecca, you can get lists of the internet.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/bleakho...

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleak_House

Be careful though, I am not sure how many spoilers these may contain.

You are right, there are so many characters and they appear then disappear for hundreds of pages. Using an audiobook would be very difficult. I am using a synched Audible and Kindle version together (Amazon's "immersion reading") and it is still a rather large work, and with the flowery language I must constantly repeat a page. Between repeating pages and going back to prior chapters, I think I will have read this book 5 times by the time I am done with it.

Thanks Henry! I've been trying to avoid looking up a character list online because I didn't want to accidentally see anything spoilers. Instead I've tried typing questions into google, but that doesn't always work.

I definitely have had to go back many times with the audiobook because I zoned out a lot. I'm glad I have many months to read this.

Chapter 21

We get a whole scene with the Smallweed family, but I still have no idea who these people are! Obviously the grandfather is lending out money to people (George), but why? Is it important?

RebeccaS wrote: "Chapter 21

We get a whole scene with the Smallweed family, but I still have no idea who these people are! Obviously the grandfather is lending out money to people (George), but why? Is it import..."

Good questions! I'm further along in the book and I still don't know.

Chapter 21-23

(view spoiler)[

Poor Jenny is back. I think Dickins uses her character to show the contrast between how the poorer women and rich women treat their children. She and her sister love their children so much, but it seems like the society women hardly think about their children at all or just treat them as adults.

Richard is seeming to turn into another Skimpole! I think using the court case and uncertainty to postpone making actual career/life decisions.

So Charlie used to be in the household of the Smallweeds? And I think she was one of the children who Ester took care of before she joined Jarndyce. Maybe that's the connection, or am I confused? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 24-26

(view spoiler)[
It's strange that Jarndyce wants Richard and Ada to separate and not plan on getting married. I don't think this is going to bode well for the future.

It also liked how the Inspector didn't want his foe to die and was trying to get him all wound up instead of giving in and dying. (hide spoiler)]

RebeccaS wrote: "Chapter 21-23"

I agree with your thoughts on Jenny and Richard (view spoiler)[ although Richard is not exactly like Skimpole. Skimpole is just a leech who has learned to brilliantly manipulate people to take care of him. Richard is leveraging money he does not have from the mystical judgement which may never come if the Chancellery has its way. Skimpole is an extremely bad influence on Richard.

Charley was the eldest child of the follower that died (I think that would be a debt collector) that Skimpole called the Coavinces. His name was Neckett. Charley locked the younger two children in the apartment and went out and did laundry although nothing more than a child herself. This is back in Chapter 15, page 182-183 in my Kindle copy. (hide spoiler)]

Thanks Henry for explaining who Charley is!

RebeccaS wrote: "Chapter 24-26"

(view spoiler)[ Jarndyce is extremely concerned with Richard's lackadaisical approach to a career. Richard is sure that the judgement will make him rich and sees no reason to take a career or establishing himself seriously. Jarndyce does not want Ada to fall into the Jarndyce Vs Jarndyce trap of waiting to be handed riches that never seems to come. Richard has fully been captivated and poisoned by the suit.

Mr. Bucket is a neat character and his attempt to cheer Gridley back to normal is endearing. I like his re-phrasing of his desires to the other person "and what you want is to...." or "that is what you would do..." thus ingratiating himself and making the other person believe that he is a wonderful person.

I liked this passage when he shows up to arrest Gridley:

‘Now, George,’ said the other [Bucket], keeping close to him, ‘you’re a sensible man, and a well-conducted man; that’s what you are, beyond a doubt. And mind you, I don’t talk to you as a common character, because you have served your country, and you know that when duty calls we must obey. Consequently, you’re very far from wanting to give trouble. If I required assistance, you’d assist me; that’s what you’d do.

Dickens, Charles (2003-03-27). Bleak House (Penguin Classics) (pp. 308-309). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

(hide spoiler)]

RebeccaS wrote: "Chapter 21

We get a whole scene with the Smallweed family, but I still have no idea who these people are! Obviously the grandfather is lending out money to people (George), but why? Is it import..."

The Smallweeds have a bigger role later in the book, but I still don't know where they are going either.

RebeccaS wrote: "Chapter 24-26


It's strange that Jarndyce wants Richard

(view spoiler)[Oh, I forgot to mention above that I think a second goal of Jarndyce is to use Ada as a bit of benevolent blackmail to get Richard to get serious with his life. (hide spoiler)]