Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

This is a Buddy Read for The Mirror Empire by Kameron Hurley starting April 26, 2020.

Here

Same.

I'm in!

I'm 7 chapters in and so far, I like it. A lot of characters and a lot of worldbuilding, even more questions. The setup has hooked me.

Prologue
(view spoiler)[Confused the hell out of me, being thrown into action asap and not knowing anything. As a super visual reader I couldn't imagine anything since I don't know what this world/people/creatures are. Made me feel for Lilia, tho. (hide spoiler)]

Chapters 1-7 (Worldbuilding)
(view spoiler)[While there's a lot of characters, names, titles, places, etc and gets a bit confusing - the worldbuilding is my favourite part so far.

Love the Dhai pacifist ways, LOVED the consent regarding touching, and especially loved the diference in marriages and genders. Two wives and three husbands in a family? Why not! Bring it! :))

The satellite channeling I'm still confused about, not sure how the suns and moons work, along with them... this is the visual reader in me having problems picturing it.

Killer plants - cool concept, but again, I'm having such a hard time picturing it. How do they move? Do they have roots which move underground? Do they bite? I don't understand sentient plant life. I am stupid.

Dorinah seems dreadful so far. The easies way to make me hate a nation and its people - have them be slavers. Also, seems like women are in charge there while men are basically slaves too? Zezili's chapter (7) horrified me. I'm so interested in this world, it's fascinating so far! (hide spoiler)]

I started yesterday and am currently 14 chapters in.
A lot of interesting aspects here.

Some thoughts (no spoilers past chapter 7, so you should be able to open it, Anya)
(view spoiler)[The different worlds and stars are intersting but I don't really understand everything yet.

I'm having problems imagining things, too! Usually I don't like long descriptions but here I feel like almost nothing is really described. I still have no idea what the country really looks like. Also, the buildings. It's mentioned they're made from plant matter but some people seem to be actually living in tress. But does that mean it's like tree cities or more like regular buildings made out of plants?

The gender roles are interesting, too. Here again I would have liked to get some more information.
I found it a bit shocking how Zezili treated her husband. I think that's because we are not used to seing men depicted as that inferior and therefore it creates that immediate sense of "this is not right!" But of course nobody should be treated like that, regardless of their gender! I have a feeling Kameron Hurley did this on purpose to hold the mirror up to the reader (pun not intended ;) ). It is so sad that female inferiority in literature is sometimes still seen as 'normal'. How can it be that I as a female reader am more shocked because a woman is abusing a man and he behaves in a submissive way than the other way round? Because I read so many popular male authors that apply traditional gender roles I guess...I'm glad I started to pick up more female fantasy authors!
(hide spoiler)]

I’m 9 chapters in and am loving the world building.

I'm at chapter 12.

@Olivia - the worldbuilding is my favourite part, love it too!

@Bea
(view spoiler)[ Hard agree on the problem of imagining the world. It's said there are buildings and holds, but are actually a living thing... so is it made of plants and trees? It's mentioned the trees are manipulated by magic, but still, I have such a hard time trying to imagine what that would look like. And don't get me started on tree-made weapons! What?? Whenever it's mentioned someone holding a 'branch', I just imagine kids with playing with sticks. I LOVE that the world is different than the standard medieval inspired European fantasy, but give us a bit more context and info on how stuff works pleaseeee!

I too hope we get more information on gender, its different kinds and roles - male/female passive, male/female assertive. What does that mean exactly?? Also, what's up with Taigan? Are they both, male and female? Neither? Nonbinary? Shapeshifter of sorts? Or are they hiding behind male gender, while being female? Remember how Roh can see through wards? And he spotted that Taigen is a woman? Oh, so many questions!!

I think the author did the Zezili story on purpose too (great pun, tho!) - to show how we are still mostly blind to patriarchy/inequality, especially in fantasy genre. I'm not, I'm super tired of it and usually avoid books with such themes and actively search female fantasy authors to read. Oh, I'm sooo tired of it! Which is why I said I liked the system in this story - multiple spouses of any gender, women in all sorts of positions of power, gender not being binary, etc.

Zezili's story is horrifying. And I think that's the point, being like 'Hey, this is how 90% of male authors treat women in their 'realistic' fantasy stories. Take a look, not so normal now, is it?' How the turntables... Most of us are definitely desensitised to women being opressed and abused, and this is, like you said, a mirror being held up. Abuse and inequality is never okay and normal, no matter the gender.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11 Question - (view spoiler)[Regarding Ahkio story - who do you trust? The Oras or Yisaoh? Neither? I'm so intrigued by this storyline and how it all fits together! Yisaoh supposedly hates the Oras, but is working with that one who sneaks in the stairs... and she stabbed poor Roh for seeing her!! Why?? Ugh, love me some political intrigue! (hide spoiler)]

Spoilers until chapter 10

(view spoiler)[
Zezili? Oh, my, God! This is creepy, and abusive, and it's weird how it stands out like a sore thumb when it's done with the woman as the abuser even though she doesn't see herself as an abuser since it's normal in this society?

I made notes in a notebook before discovering the glossary. Now, I've bookmarked the glossary.

This is a very strange world and everything is new in terms of world building and vocabulary. Very imaginative! I love the thing with the satellites/stars ?

I love the genders with the assertive and passive.

Also: I have to read really slowly because there's a lot to take in! (hide spoiler)]

Just through chapter 3, but loving it so far! There are enough drop-in world building details that I almost feel like I need to reread it.

@Niki - I feel the same. I feel like this is one of those series one can appreciate more on reread. Once everything is clear and explained, going over again and catching all the details that made no sense on first read.

@Olivia - I still make notes even tho there's a glossary. I can't remember who's related to whom, who is from what clan, who practices which channelling... I almost made a detective like board with red strings :))

Up to chapter 25:

(view spoiler)[I'm sad about Lilia leaving Gian behind. I feel like these two could have formed a friendship. But then Gian's death is technically not confirmed, so maybe she survives??

Now we finally got more info on the worlds. The other Dhai invading does not bode well for anybody...

So Taigan's body changes its biological gender, that's interesting. Reminds me of the premise of The Left Hand of Darkness.
I'm still confused about the Dhai genders. Kihin uses the male passive form for an ataisa, so what exactly does male passive mean then?

Did anyone else find that Roh behaved a bit immaturely when they arrived in Saiduan? (hide spoiler)]

Interested but aghrrr... do I want to open yet another series???

Mayim wrote: "Interested but aghrrr... do I want to open yet another series???"

The world building is magnificent, but the prose is nothing special (I like it, but it's the one thing I've seen criticised quite a bit) if that helps?

Started the prologue and re-read the blurb... sounds similar to Riftwar? (blending sci-fi and fantasy)

Chapter 13: (view spoiler)[So the Mirror Empire has mirrored gender norms... just learning about these males raised for sexual gratification... (hide spoiler)]

Not sure what to say about the rest, yet... seems to be laying the foundation of characters for the trilogy, so far... I like the narration...

Niki Hawkes wrote: "Just through chapter 3, but loving it so far! There are enough drop-in world building details that I almost feel like I need to reread it."

I definitely did a lot of rewinding in the first couple chapters...

Timelord Iain wrote: "Niki Hawkes wrote: "Just through chapter 3, but loving it so far! There are enough drop-in world building details that I almost feel like I need to reread it."

I definitely did a lot of rewinding ..."

I had to re-read a few times.

Chapter 17: Oh wow... this is MUCH more interesting than I anticipated... (view spoiler)[this is more like Sliders, where each world as the same people, but they've lived/evolved differently, because of decision-based diverging timelines... (hide spoiler)]

This could go in so many interesting dimensions... time to rewind a bit, again... :D

Anya wrote: "I'm 7 chapters in and so far, I like it. A lot of characters and a lot of worldbuilding, even more questions. The setup has hooked me.

Prologue
[spoilers removed]

Chapters 1-7 (Worldbuilding)
W..."

I agree... Prologue was confusing, and the early chapters throw tons of characters and ideas at us... the audiobook narrator pronounces Zezili similar to Cecily... so much so, that I didn't realize they were the same character the first time I started clicking spoilers in here... but I should have, considering her actions...

Timelord Iain wrote: "Chapter 17: Oh wow... this is MUCH more interesting than I anticipated... [spoilers removed]

This could go in so many interesting dimensions... time to rewind a bit, again... :D"

It is super interesting, even tho I'm not the biggest fan of sci-fi elements, I find myself really invested in this storyline.

Chapter 17 - (view spoiler)[I like the fact that no one who has a double on this world can cross. Makes it a bit more easier to follow. It does mean the slaughter of hundreds of innocent people, which is heartbreaking. Zezili's chapters are horrific to read. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 19 - Lilia (view spoiler)[The lil' shit! I kinda get why she did it, but I couldn't believe when she let Gian fall into the trap. I hope she's not dead, I quite liked her. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 22 - Ahkio (view spoiler)[I'm starting to lean towards Yisaoh being trustworthy and that Nasaka is playing Ahkio. To which end, still no clue. It definitely feels Ahkio is way out of his depth, tho. Also, if what Yisaoh said to Ahkio, about not being at the temple when Roh was stabbed, does that mean Yisaoh's double can cross over even with the 'original' alive? (hide spoiler)]

Bea wrote: "Up to chapter 25

(view spoiler)[
I was so bummed about Gian too! I think she'll live and come back, remember the rule - if we don't see the death/body...

Taigan still confuses me, if the gender changes periodically, why did Roh see through Taigan's wards and as a woman? I really like the variety of genders, but I desperately need more info!

Roh - I did find him all over the place in the chapter when they arrive in Saiduan. I guess he was excited, and at dinner, drunk. Was it mentioned anywhere how old he is? I still see him as a kid, so his excitement and naivety didn't bother me.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 13 was horrifying.

Chapter 26: This book is definitely rife with small moments that would have more meaning on re-read (view spoiler)[like the implications when Kaisa asked Aikido "when he gave up... ever going back"... anybody could be a Mirror/Doppelganger... it's like watching Battlestar Galactica, before all the humanoid Cylons were revealed... (hide spoiler)]

You know... for all the things going on, this book is flying by... I feel like (view spoiler)[most people won't have really accepted what's going on, until the end of this book... at this point it largely feels like a shadow war (if you're not in the hot zones), killing and replacing key people (either key to the new world, or important old world leaders that need through)... (hide spoiler)]

I'm in chapter 29 now, and I guess I'm past the halfway point...

Missed this BR but it would be a reread for me so will join in for the next book.

Yeah it definitely calls for more concentration. It’s not as bad as Gardens of the Moon though lol. A few people have mentioned this is the least accessible of her works and that the Light Brigade one is amazing. I’ve been under the weather the last day or two and haven’t picked it up much, but I’m getting back into it today (only a few chapters in). Something about it is making me want to savor it. World building is the component I rate the highest in books, and so far this one is dazzling me. Even though it requires more concentration, I appreciate the approach of “showing” us everything instead of “telling” us.

I dunno about you guys, but I care more about this interesting world than the characters in it (view spoiler)[(who seem to be pretty horrible/flawed, for the most part) (hide spoiler)]...

I'm around chapter 45 now, and it wasn't until a little bit ago that I looked past the blurb on the book page, and noticed the low average rating... it seems a bunch of reviews agree with me, or are even harsher...

@Iain - I stopped looking at ratings long ago, they make no sense to me and usually don't align with my thoughts and feelings at all.

I actually find the characters (the most important aspect for me) really interesting and engaging. I find them all complex and flawed, some downright despicable, but I'm still interested and really care about some of them. Even tho we only know a fraction of their (back)stories, I feel like all of them have clear motivation, which makes their actions understandable.

For me it's characters -> worldbuilding -> plot, so this book is really working for me so far.

@Olivia - Yeah, chapter 13 is rife with trigger warnings... very difficult to read.

Anya wrote: "@Iain - I stopped looking at ratings long ago, they make no sense to me and usually don't align with my thoughts and feelings at all.

I actually find the characters (the most important aspect for..."

I finished the book 30-45 minutes ago, and spend that time on the Worldbreaker Saga wiki reading character summaries, seeing what I missed and all that (sucks that the wiki seems to mostly have info for the first book, so if/when I read the second I'm going to be on my own)... but I gotta say, I dunno if I'd have finished the book if I'd been reading it... listening, I was able to let a lot of the terms and names slide off me, since I didn't need to figure out how to pronounce them myself... reading the wiki, I was made much more aware of everything...

I see Aikido is really Ahkio, for example :D

Also, having finished the book, now, I think I could make more comparisons to Revanche Cycle or Moontide Quartet (moontide, heh)... (view spoiler)[it's like the MC confusion early on, not understanding worlds vs countries... swap out the mirror for a land bridge, and I can see a lot of similaries between the factions and machinations, etc etc etc)... (hide spoiler)]

All in all, I enjoyed it enough to continue, 3-4 stars for me... and I just kinda probably spoiled something big from book 2, trying to do a keyword search about Nasaka, to confirm something from the epilogue... so there's that... wouldn't be a BR if I didn't spoil something for myself and have to hold it in :D

And re: ratings... I try not to put too much stock in them, but when a bunch of people read something, and the average rating gets low, I notice... High Praise and High Controversy can easily take up the front page of reviews, so you'll see a lot of 4-5s or 1-2s, depending on the book... but I can't think of many books I've read with a rating below 3.7-3.9... this is 3.5 with several thousand ratings... probably because of the complexity of the world and the shock factor...

Gonna go do a bookshelf search... I've shelved 2309 books on my read shelf in the last 7 years, and:

15 books have a lower average (than 3.5)...
148 more have a 3.5 to 3.74 rating...

As generous as I am with my ratings, I have to say my ratings tend to agree with the average... I can generally count on my fingers, the number of 1-2 star ratings I give in a year, and I think I ran out looking through those 200 books...

In fact... in 2309 books, I've only given 12 one star ratings, and 97 two star ratings... and most of those 2s are old favorite series I refuse(d) to quit... Kurtherian Gambit, Argeneau Vampires, Dark Hunters, etc... in fact (in fact), most of those series have higher average ratings, because most people aren't as masochistic as me and quit if they don't like it (anymore)...

Mayim wrote: "Interested but aghrrr... do I want to open yet another series???"

I bet Mayim is salivating right now, if she sees me comparing the bare bones plot to Moontide Quartet (if you swap out the sci-fi elements of Worldbreaker Saga)

:D :D :D

I’m so far behind, but Ch 4 (view spoiler)[holy shit. I didn’t see that coming. (hide spoiler)] can’t wait to start opening spoiler tags lol.

@Iain - Aikido lol! I can't do audiobooks. I retain exactly zero information via audio. I need to read physically, and even then, I usually reread paragraphs multiple times as ADHD kicks in, making me zone out and not know what I just read. I have no problem with weird names, I just make up a pronunciation that works for me :))

@Niki - Ch 4 (view spoiler)[You just read the stabbing of Roh? Yeah, my reaction exactly. Which is why I said I really like the way characters are written - I knew the boy for only a couple of chapters and that scene really shocked and hit me :)) (hide spoiler)]

Anyone else have trouble picturing how characters look? That's my main problem atm - I feel like very few people are described physically, and those are all side characters. I have no idea how POV characters look...

Anya wrote: "@Iain - Aikido lol! I can't do audiobooks. I retain exactly zero information via audio. I need to read physically, and even then, I usually reread paragraphs multiple times as ADHD kicks in, making..."

Ah, so I'm not the only one who doesn't retain info via audio. My brain isn't wired in that way. It goes "bla bla bla" into my ear and I have no idea what just happened.

I do struggle to keep my attention focused sometimes with printed text as well, but when I keep myself from zoning out I tend to have a pretty decent memory.

The other issue I have is that I can't picture things, so I have no idea how the characters look either.

Olivia wrote: "Anya wrote: "@Iain - Aikido lol! I can't do audiobooks. I retain exactly zero information via audio. I need to read physically, and even then, I usually reread paragraphs multiple times as ADHD kic..."

I'd say Romances and Mysteries are the easiest to retain... just dialogue-heavy books and non-fantasy books in general, really...

My imagery is vague, in general, and tends to draw from buildings/places I've been before and the book covers...

After this book, I read Murder at Pirate's Cove, an M/M Cozy Mystery and had a lot of fun... it's hard to find good cozy mysteries... so many make the MC too stupid to live (at least in the first book, which tends to involve them being accused of murder... how else are they going to get into the habit of solving mysteries for fun)...

Basically proves my point about easy, comtemporary mysteries, too :)

@Olivia - I can and always picture things, I'm a visual reader, but the problem here is that there's no clear description of the characters. So far, all I gathered is that Saiduans are typically dark-skinned and that the Dhai are short. That's all. Wish there was more to go on, so I can see the faces of the people I am reading about...

@Iain - Maybe other genres would work for me on audio, but I'm just not that into them. I had a huge ten-year reading slump (high school mandatory reads killed my desire for reading), now I'm catching up on all the fantasy I missed :)) When I get sick of fantasy, I will def. pick up some contemporary thrillers and mysteries!

Anya wrote: "@Olivia - I can and always picture things, I'm a visual reader, but the problem here is that there's no clear description of the characters. So far, all I gathered is that Saiduans are typically da..."

I hear ya... I had a similar slump... video games in high school... some Wheel of Time in college... bought some books after college... got a Kindle in 2012 (at this point it had been about 10 years since starting high school and cutting back on reading)

THEN, I started really using my Kindle in 2013... switched to Audiobooks in 2015... started listening faster in late 2017... so I've read/listened to about 2200 books in the past 7 years... so I've had to diversify...

900+ Urban Fantasy / Paranormal Romance
600+ SF/Fantasy
300+ Romance
300+ Mystery/Thriller

Assorted other stuff...

Anya wrote: "@Iain - Aikido lol! I can't do audiobooks. I retain exactly zero information via audio. I need to read physically, and even then, I usually reread paragraphs multiple times as ADHD kicks in, making..."

I can't do audiobooks either, I just can't focus on them. I wish I could because it would be a good way to improve my english listening comprehension...

Yeah, this book isn't exactly rich in character descriptions, right? I personally don't even mind that much because I don't really picture characters while reading. I just kind of see a human shaped form with the characters name on top walking around 😅

@Bea - So you basically see Sims figures? :D That's amazing! I usually take the description of the characters' features and then associate them with someone similar - mostly actors, but sometimes even people i know in real life.

But here, I see no one. I too see faceless figures. Except, weirdly, I see Ahkio as King Harrow from The Dragon Prince... I have no idea why!! The image just popped into my mind and it won't leave me alone :))

Ch 28 - Left me SHOOK! (view spoiler)[Noooo, Gian!! We just got you back! And the little girl :(( This chapter was WILD! Lilia, what are you doing?? I like you, but girl, you need to stop and take a breather!! (hide spoiler)]

Ch 31 & 32 - (view spoiler)[LEAVE.ANAVHA.ALONE. So glad he killed that drunkard! (hide spoiler)]

Ch 33 - (view spoiler)[I knew Roh's ability to see through wards was gonna come back in a big way! You get that sanisi kiss, boy!! :)) (hide spoiler)]

Theory re: The Empress of Dorinah - (view spoiler)[She has been switched, hasn't she? That's why she didn't see Zezili when she came to see her, and doesn't seem to care that the country will collapse if they kill all the slaves. (hide spoiler)]

Anya wrote: "@Bea - So you basically see Sims figures? :D That's amazing! I usually take the description of the characters' features and then associate them with someone similar - mostly actors, but sometimes e..."

Olivia's description definitely reminds me of video games... especially MMORPGs...

My imagery kinda feels like watching a pirated copy of a movie shot on a video camera in a movie theater... dark and out of focus... the imagery can become more vivid, the more times I re-read...

Anya wrote: "Ch 28 - Left me SHOOK! [spoilers removed]

Ch 31 & 32 - [spoilers removed]

Ch 33 - [spoilers removed]

Theory re: The Empress of Dorinah - [spoilers removed]"

Empress: From the blurb, (view spoiler)[the Empress is an alien... not from the main R-world, OR the Tal Mora mirror world, that most duplicates are from... another world entirely... actually, the reason she acts the way she does (view spoiler)[is because she wants help from the Tal Mora to open a mirror to her own world, so more of her people can come through and take over (hide spoiler)]... I think (hide spoiler)]

@Iain - Oh, I haven't even read the blurb. I thought she was Dorinah, tho now that I think about it, there was some talk of the Empress being different in some way, divine, Rhea something-something.

God, I love this type of storytelling, multiple POVs, starting at different locations, seemingly unconnected... cause Ch 35 (view spoiler)[when Zezili pulled Lilia out of the lake, I squealed! Love it when worlds collide... no pun intended (hide spoiler)]

28 was wow... and I have a theory re Akhio’s sister. This looks like it might turn into a favourite series.

I'm done!

Overall, I really liked it. It's quite clearly a setup book, but I feel like even in this first one a lot of stuff got done and the characters went through a lot, grown with every chapter.

I have a few minor complaints, mostly with visualising things. I wish the description of people and places was more clear. But like I said, minor. I really liked the character work and worldbuilding. Even liked and was invested in the plot. Rarely I really like all three :))

Biggest complaint, Ch 48 - re: Lilia (view spoiler)[Did I miss something, or did she get awfully good awfully quickly with her powers?? I know Taigan taught her songs/litanies/whatever, but this is one of those where 'telling not showing' really bothered me. From not being able to do sh*t to summoning gates in seconds...

We've known from the start she has dormant powers, Taigan tried to bring them out, but nothing. When they did finally emerge, chaos ensued and it felt real - her going berserk and not knowing what she's doing. Almost killing herself in the process. But then the next moment, when she's with Zezili on the other world, she kinda just knows what to do. Full control, dismantling the mirror and opening a gate back. I dunno, felt kinda contrived. Such a pity, because the setup was there. (hide spoiler)]

I'm also done.

I feel like this will need a second read at some point and would benefit from a second read.

Since I struggle to visualise anyway, I didn't mind and didn't even notice the few visual cues.

I did get confused until the very last page, hence why I think I'll need to re-read at some point.

Are we doing the other books?

Also, I agree, Anya, it went awfully fast, though I took (chapter 48) (view spoiler)[her powers developing like a three year old who doesn't speak no matter how much you try and get them to finally speak and then suddenly the dam breaks and full sentences spill out and they basically skipped the babbling words stage. (hide spoiler)]

@Olivia - Wow, reading your analogy was kinda eerie cause (view spoiler)[I was going to compare Lilia's powers much the same way as you did, except it reminded me of a baby learning to walk. First, someone has to hold its hands, then later the baby grabs onto chairs and tables to pull itself up, stumbles and falls when trying to walk alone. Except this felt like the baby just stood up and started sprinting after dropping its parents' hands :)) No awkward, stumbling stage whatsoever! I wrote it all out, but then deleted it cause I didn't wanna ramble too much lol (hide spoiler)]

I started the second book, because I have exactly zero chill and need to know what happens. I never take breaks when I read series, either read it all or if it's bad, drop it completely. So, if someone wants to open a page for the second book, I'm in! :))

I have a few books I want to finish first, so I would probably start next week...but I'd totally be in to read the next one soon :)

and wow, that's amusing!