Victorians! discussion

This week’s segment brings interesting new developments.

Kate is invited to a party hosted by Ralph Nickleby. Kate was at first not easy in mind, but her mother’s too generous view on her uncle makes her think it would be a privilege. The party is an all gentleman party and Kate finds herself being subjected to the insolence of a lecherous Sir Mulberry Hawk. Kate is indignant at the shame her uncle puts her through. Ralph Nickleby’s reason for this invitation is to attract the attention of young Lord Verisopht towards her niece so as to gain monetary advantages for him. Sir Mulberry Hawk and Ralph Nickleby are in a joint conspiracy to ruin the wealthy young Lord.

What did you think of this chapter? Was your opinion on Ralph Nickleby in anyway altered? For my part his conduct gave me mixed feelings.

Nicholas meets Ralph. It was quite an exciting encounter. Ralph reads out the letter send by Miss Squeers which was full of false allegations and exaggerations. Kate flatly refuses to believe any of it while Mrs. Nickleby wavers. It seems Mrs. Nickleby has no confidence in the honest and just character of Nicholas. Nicholas appears in person to defend him to the great surprise and anger of Ralph. He then decides to renounce his support of Kate and Mrs. Nickleby if Nicholas stays around them. Kate is undisturbed but Mrs. Nickleby is quite alarmed at the prospect and makes her sentiments known. This makes Nicholas makes the decision to quit them to the greater distress of Kate.

What did you think of this little episode? I felt sorry for both Kate and Nicholas and angry at Mrs. Nickleby than at Ralph.

Mr. Matalini’s extravagance ruins Mrs. Mantlini and they become bankrupt. Mrs. Matalini’s business is taken by Miss. Knag, resulting in Kate’s dismissal. Kate finds new employment as a companion to one Mrs. Whititterly.

Nicholas true to his word leaves London with Smike. They plan to head to Portsmouth with the intention of finding a job on a ship. When they stop at an Inn on their way, they are met with the Manager of a theater company – Mr. Vincent Crummles. Mr. Crummles offers employment for both Nicholas and Smike and thus another adventure of Nicholas begins.

What did you think of this segment?

Oh, how awful parts of this segment were. Ralph's treatment of Kate as a lure was really unpleasant. However, am I right in thinking there was a glimmer of regret for his behaviour?

I really enjoyed the theatrical scenes and descriptions of the actors and their work. This all sounded like fun. I don't know if anyone has read Random Harvest, but there is a depiction of theatrical life in that which is also very warming. Incidentally, one of the characters calls himself Sir Mulberry Hawke!

What a contrast this company , environment and work will be to that in the school. I do hope that it lasts.

Robin wrote: "Oh, how awful parts of this segment were. Ralph's treatment of Kate as a lure was really unpleasant. However, am I right in thinking there was a glimmer of regret for his behaviour?..."

I thought so too. Although his monetary interests induced him to invite Kate to the party, he is not happy with the insolence of the "gentlemen" towards Kate. He seems to be fond of her in his own way, the wicked man though he is.

I really enjoyed this section! If I wasn’t excited in the last section at the turn of events and hope for better things, this segment really woke me up to all the new prospects.

I agree, the dinner party was horrible for poor Kate, but witnessing Ralph’s seeming turn at the end to some thoughts of decency and realizing what he’d done to Kate was certainly hopeful that Ralph may have some redeeming qualities buried deep down. I was touched at his seeing his brother in her, and perhaps Kate may be the thing that can remind Ralph of the person he was before the money?

Mrs. Nickelby is still doing nothing to make me like her, and it grows worse as the novel wears on. To be so wishy-washy about Nicholas. I did feel sorry for Kate and Nickolas, but like Nicholas hope that they can both grow and find their way apart and in time come together again. I also disliked Ralph in this instance as I’m sure he knew the characters of the Squeers and that Nicholas was in the right, but he had to deny that.

Mrs. Mantalini was taken in by a shyster and too bad for her she kept getting pulled under his spell. I hope Kate’s new job is fruitful, the new Mrs. certainly has a personality, and in a way almost opposite of the Mantalini’s – Mrs. Whititterly is quite grandiose, and Mr. Whititterly absolutely adores her and sees not one fault but boasts her acclaims to no end. I’m glad that Kate is at least out of the sweatshop and doesn’t have to deal with Miss Knag anymore. It will be interesting to see how the relationship with the Whititterly’s pans out. And the walk on the way home where her mother had the Mrs. dead and buried and Kate married to the Mr. was comical, especially Kate’s reaction to it.

What a good fortune that Nicholas happened upon Mr. Crummles. And how exciting it all panned out that his play was well received as well as his acting. This is a turn I absolutely had not expected, but I was cheering Nicholas’s good fortune and hope that this can give some security for him and Smike. They’ve really made a great bond with each other, out of necessity as they are all they have right now, but also I think in respect for each other and genuine fondness as well. Their relationships is one of my favorite parts of the book and I’m anxious to see how the two of them grow.

Brenda wrote: "I really enjoyed this section! If I wasn’t excited in the last section at the turn of events and hope for better things, this segment really woke me up to all the new prospects.

I agree, the dinn..."

I too was happy at the good fortune of Nicholas. It looks that this new adventure of his will be profitable for him. The success of him as an actor and script-writer shows that he has talent in that quarter.

I hope Kate too will have a better time at her new employment. She suffered enough at the Mantalini's.

Mrs. Nickleby cuts such a poor figure of a mother. Her want of confidence and faith in Nicholas is shocking! How could she condemn him and support Ralph in the face of such abominable allegations? And her silly ideas of a Mrs. dying and Mr. is marrying the companion is laughable. Is that how she plans the future for her daughter? She has no thought for her dignity.

Smike is too at the beginning of a new life. After many years of suffering at Dotheboys Hall, he now has a hope for a future. I hope he will turn out to be quite an interesting youth.

The attachment between Nicholas and Smike is quite touching. Nicholas's concern for him is that of a brother. His employment with the Crummles is also induced by his concern for Smike.

I thought the treatment of Kate was disgraceful - her uncle was dreadful to subject her to it. Mrs Nickleby seemed worse than ever, a complete fantasist who only cares about herself. Nicholas is determined to work & I admire his willingness to try new tasks to earn money. He is very caring & does his best for his family & for Smike.

Trisha wrote: "I thought the treatment of Kate was disgraceful - her uncle was dreadful to subject her to it.."

Yes, Trisha, it was. Although Ralph regretted the insolence to which Kate was subjected to, his conduct is dreadful and unpardonable.

Piyangie wrote: "Trisha wrote: "I thought the treatment of Kate was disgraceful - her uncle was dreadful to subject her to it.."

Yes, Trisha, it was. Although Ralph regretted the insolence to which Kate was subjec..."

Yes, in many ways it reflects the very behaviour the Me Too movement is talking about. There was no need for a 'casting couch' , nor any reward contemplated for Kate. She was an adornment to Ralph's dinner, and as such, likely to become the focus for the sort of behaviour to which she was subjected. I wonder why Ralph was surprised. Or if this glimmer of hope for his character will be built upon.

I wonder what Dickens is trying to say about Mrs Nickleby. She is portrayed as not only lacking any commonsense, but totally dedicated to her own comfort. That this is comfort of mind is no less appalling than if it was bodily comfort she sought at her children's expense (although there is some of that too). Mrs Hale's shortcomings really fade in the awfulness of Mrs Nickleby's behaviour. Oh dear, will we see even more awful middle-aged women/mothers as we read more Dickens?

In my view Ralph’s remorse came too late for him to be redeemed in any way. By the time she had been attacked she had already been completely humiliated after Ralph had ‘thrown her to the lions’ in the dinner party. The main thing that went wrong for Ralph was that the wrong man persisted in his attentions to her. What if Kate had humbly succumbed and not kicked up such a fuss, would Ralph still have felt pangs of guilt? It was Kate’s reaction to the unwanted attention that forced Ralph to act and his remorse came after the brave way she berated him for her lack of protection.
I will be very surprised if he does change but he eventually did show some disgust at what had happened and that could be a catalyst for improving his future behaviour, at least towards Kate.

Trev wrote: "In my view Ralph’s remorse came too late for him to be redeemed in any way. By the time she had been attacked she had already been completely humiliated after Ralph had ‘thrown her to the lions’ in..."

I think Ralph is used to handling people, especially those helpless, as objects to attain whatever monetary end he has in mind. So at first, Kate was a pawn to attract the young wealthy Lord to fall into whatever scheme he is concocting with Sir Hawk. It is Kate's strong reproach that made him see his shameful conduct, so the late remorse.

This was a great section-I loved Dickens introducing a theatre group into the tale-his love of theatricals certainly is on display here.

I still don't have a good sense of how old Smike is-I'm imagining him as late teens-is that everyone else's sense?

Nicholas has fared better than Kate in this section. I agree that the theatre group was a great addition to the drama. And Nicholas earned his street creds by figuring out right away how to respond in flattering ways to his new colleagues and patrons.

Smike seems late teens to me, too, and obviously younger than Nicholas. This was a lively and enjoyable section.

Trisha wrote: "I thought the treatment of Kate was disgraceful - her uncle was dreadful to subject her to it. Mrs Nickleby seemed worse than ever, a complete fantasist who only cares about herself. Nicholas is de..."

I agree--I was outraged with this! I can't stand Mrs. Nickleby. I do love the theatre group and the role it plays in this book, though.

Trev wrote: "In my view Ralph’s remorse came too late for him to be redeemed in any way. By the time she had been attacked she had already been completely humiliated after Ralph had ‘thrown her to the lions’ in..."

I like that you put in the proviso 'at least towards Kate'. It is important to recognise that individual acts of remorse are not necessarily the whole story.

Frances wrote: "This was a great section-I loved Dickens introducing a theatre group into the tale-his love of theatricals certainly is on display here.

I still don't have a good sense of how old Smike is-I'm ima..."

I think Dickens tells us about 18 if I remember correctly...(I read a little farther than the timeline used here).

Allie wrote: "Frances wrote: "This was a great section-I loved Dickens introducing a theatre group into the tale-his love of theatricals certainly is on display here.

I still don't have a good sense of how old ..."

I agree, Allie. I just looked back - it’s in Chapter 7, where Smike is described as “... not less than 18 or 19 years old”.

Trisha wrote: "I agree, Allie. I just looked back - it’s in Chapter 7, where Smike is described as “... not less than 18 or 19 years old”..."

Thank you, Trisha. I remember I read somewhere that Smike was about 18yrs. I couldn't remember where. :)

Like many of you have mentioned here, I too enjoyed the theater addition to the story. Dickens loved theatre and if I'm not mistaken he was an amateur actor himself.

Having just finished the section, I agree with the comments above. Kate's treatment was awful and she shows a lot of strength of character for a young girl, especially with a mother who offers no support. Ralph was using her as bait for the young lord, but he seems to have been dealing with Sir Mulberry for a long time, so he must have known what he's like.

I too enjoyed the scenes with Crummles and Nicholas, Dickens' love for the theatre shines through and he obviously enjoyed writing about it.

Ralph Nickleby's party: nowadays we would say that Kate was sexually harassed and "me too" would intervene... it is piteous to see how Kate is disarmed against Sir Hawk's approaches and also against her uncle's schemes. It seems that Ralph is ashamed, in the end, and perhaps one can feel a little sorry for him, he is so accustomed to plotting that he had not fully realized the consequences... But then there is the scene of the letter from Miss Squeers, and I changed idea! Mrs Nickleby reaction is disgraceful, I recently read with some of you The way we live now where a mother was always justifying her son but here we are at the opposite end!
I am not happy that Nicholas joins Mr Crummels company. It can only be another adventure, but I can foresee that this will give Dickens the way to make us acquainted with a new series of characters.

There is an excellent article, with illustrations in The Conversation, which I receive on line. Its not possible to cut and paste, as far as I can see. However, if people are interested they could perhaps search on line for The Conversation and find the article.

Daniela wrote: "Ralph Nickleby's party: nowadays we would say that Kate was sexually harassed and "me too" would intervene... it is piteous to see how Kate is disarmed against Sir Hawk's approaches and also agains..."

Yes, it certainly is sexual harassment. And, oh for Me Too to stop this in its tracks. Just imagine though - Mrs Nickleby would be one of those terrible mothers who does not believe her daughter. Its quite interesting to see this event in the light of modern day behaviour.

I think this may be the article in The Conversation?
Thank you for the information.

https://theconversation.com/charles-d...

Thank you Robin and Brenda for the article, it is really very interesting!

Now, this is a very interesting article. Thank you, Robin and Brenda, for sharing with us.

Brenda wrote: "I think this may be the article in The Conversation?
Thank you for the information.

https://theconversation.com/charles-d..."

Thank you for following up, Brenda. I should have done that, but didn't think of it.

No problem Robin, this is a group, thus group effort. :))

Brenda wrote: "No problem Robin, this is a group, thus group effort. :))"

Thank you, Brenda. Group support is what makes these discussions more informative and interesting.