Reading the Detectives discussion

Enjoy all the spoilers here at your own peril ;-)

Poirot wasn't so much to the fore as he is in other books of the series, but it was still a captivating read. Miss Lemon has made mistakes which is unheard of, and seems that her mind has been on troubles at her sister's workplace. Poirot, naturally decides to look into these troubles. Fed information, and the red herrings, taxes our ability at puzzle solving, and gives another enjoyable read as we are expecting.

The introduction of Miss Lemon was really good, as it placed Poirot in a work setting that was apart from his investigations. I've been reading some of the later Poirots where the need for a secretary (but certainly not a valet) is redundant. Miss Lemon sounds an ideal secretary for Poirot - usually no mistakes - and her deviation from the norm creates a different sort of beginning for the mystery. I wonder if Christie ever thought of giving the valet that role - he leaves a spot of grease on Poirot's suit for example? Alas, we shall never know. Oh dear, possibly Sophie Hannah will adopt this idea in one of her awful so called Christie novels.

Lots of twists, so much so, that the murderer was actually the first I accused.

I only realised on completing the book that Mrs Hubbard is yet another nursery rhyme reference.

Tracey wrote: "Lots of twists, so much so, that the murderer was actually the first I accused.

I only realised on completing the book that Mrs Hubbard is yet another nursery rhyme reference."

I was interested in how, although the murderer constantly pushed himself to the fore, I didn't immediately spot him. I didn't like him, and felt sorry for the woman who defended him, but saw him as an unpleasant person, nothing more.

I didn't enjoy this one as much as others, to my shame, I think it may be because it didn't have the 'glamour' of others. I did feel sorry for him, the idea of not being able to trust you;re own family felt harsh. I did fall for that.

One of the most unsatisfying Poirots. Too many victims and too many murderers without good clues.

Is there a clue which indicates that Mrs. Nicoletie is Valerie's mother?

Robin wrote: "Tracey wrote: "Lots of twists, so much so, that the murderer was actually the first I accused.

I only realised on completing the book that Mrs Hubbard is yet another nursery rhyme reference."

I ..."

Same, here - seemed like a typical later Poirot, lots of help from police, etc., but Poirot seemed to pull a lot out at the last minute that we readers had no legitimate clues to - like the Valerie/Mrs. Nicoletis connection- what was the point of that? And the killer seemed just run of the mill unpleasant, not combination master criminal drug importer/serial killer! That seemed a bit too much, kind of felt all over the place - and the weird, tacked-on scene with the American Sally, and Len and Akibombo at the end - love’s young dream over the carnage of three dead people (four, if you count the killer’s mother)? Strange, like throwing all of her previous successful “wrapping up loose plot elements” endings in, stirring, and voila!

Oh, well, can’t all be great, and most any Christie mystery is better than most out there, so I’ll take it! But as Bicky so succinctly put it, unsatisfying!

I think that more (or less) should have been made of the extra, non-Anglophone characters. They were wheeled in, said nothing much, and left, as if to provide support for 'this is an international hostel' without actually bothering with fleshing out the extra characters. I don't suppose that Christie was aiming for a proper diversity quota, but it did come across as that, with added racism in the treatment of Akibombo.

Bicky wrote: "One of the most unsatisfying Poirots. Too many victims and too many murderers without good clues.

Is there a clue which indicates that Mrs. Nicoletie is Valerie's mother?"

Perhaps the length of time that Valerie has been living in the house? They could certainly be seen as having an enduring relationship because of that. However, the mother/daughter link was really tenuous. Like so much in this novel , I thought that unnecessary events and relationships were dragged in - a short story masquerading as a novel? Very unsatisfying in my view.

Rosina wrote: "I think that more (or less) should have been made of the extra, non-Anglophone characters. They were wheeled in, said nothing much, and left, as if to provide support for 'this is an international ..."

How I agree with this observation. I have written a short review in which I note that I felt more uncomfortable with the treatment of the overseas students on my reread than when I read the novel many years ago. Shame on me then, I hasten to say, and thank goodness there is more awareness now. Possibly the only comfort is that the perpetrator was a well born (!) Englishman.

I'm reading another Agatha Christie at the moment ,and it throws into high relief one of the problems with Hickory, Dickory , Dock. There is so much detail with clues in the first chapter. The characterisations are begun, with such solid foundations, there is humour and such smart social commentary. Alas, these are not features of Hickory, Dickory, Dock. But, how the latter serves to show us how wonderful Christie can be in contrast. I know that she became fed up with Poirot, and perhaps this is an example of the malaise Christie felt upon having to write yet another novel with him central to the action.

Agreed-this wasn't a favourite-plot was fuzzy, not a lot of Poirot and the raft of "foreign" students who weren't seriously part of the plot and the unfortunate terminology used for them was uncomfortable. Hope to see more of Miss Lemon though!

Frances wrote: "Agreed-this wasn't a favourite-plot was fuzzy, not a lot of Poirot and the raft of "foreign" students who weren't seriously part of the plot and the unfortunate terminology used for them was uncomf..."

Yes, Miss lemon was a character worth reprising in future novels. I'm trying to think about whether she was. Perhaps others know?

We get plenty of the valet, but the reason for this would be that a valet is needed (only by some, of course) into old age. Miss Lemon is part of Poirot's milieu as an employer of a secretary in his business.

I honestly could not keep track of all of the characters--she easily could have eliminated half of them and it would have been a better story. But I do love Miss Lemon! According to the All About Agatha podcast (which I would highly recommend), Christie initially considered having a retired Miss Lemon as the character working in the hostel, but I think it works better this way.

Tara wrote: "I honestly could not keep track of all of the characters--she easily could have eliminated half of them and it would have been a better story. But I do love Miss Lemon! According to the All About A..."

I agree. Miss Lemon is the best part of the book and the plot does work better this way.

Tara wrote: "I honestly could not keep track of all of the characters--she easily could have eliminated half of them and it would have been a better story. But I do love Miss Lemon! According to the All About A..."

Thank you for this insight into Christie's speculation about how to use Miss Lemon. I agree that it is worth having something about Poirot's working life before his retirement. And Miss lemon is a good character in this context. She is so meticulous she could almost be a mirror image of some of Poirot's behaviour.

Tara wrote: "I honestly could not keep track of all of the characters--she easily could have eliminated half of them and it would have been a better story. But I do love Miss Lemon! According to the All About A..."

Thank you for the podcast recommendation. You've reminded me that I wanted to check this one out.

All thought I really enjoyed this book, I do understand where all the comments stated above come form. There were indeed a lot of characters and weird plot twists, and I also didn't pick up on the family relation between Valerie and Ms Nicoletie (and also am not quite sure why it mattered?).

But besides that I really enjoyed the story. I absolutely loved the first chapters, they made the book for me. So comical and very different in tone from the preceeding book.

I kept fearing that Ms Lemon's sister would die! Even stopped reading a some point so sure was I that the next chapter would find her dead... Luckily she was spared!

That’s what I wondered, did it matter if Valerie was Mrs. N’s daughter? Did I miss clues about this?

Tara wrote: "I honestly could not keep track of all of the characters--she easily could have eliminated half of them and it would have been a better story. But I do love Miss Lemon! According to the All About A..."

Thanks for the podcast recommendation, Tara!

Susan in NC wrote: "That’s what I wondered, did it matter if Valerie was Mrs. N’s daughter? Did I miss clues about this?"

The only clue I can remember was at some point Valerie was saying nice things about Mrs. Nicoletis, and someone (maybe Poirot?) commented that she was fond of her. Valerie played it off as though it was because she had lived there a long time, and that Mrs. N was nicer before she started drinking (which probably had a grain of truth.) You would think she should would have felt more guilty about turning her mother into a nervous alcoholic and a murder victim, but she seemed rather unfazed for the most part. The only reason behind it that I can see would be 1. it explains why Mrs. N would have been her accomplice, and 2. its a reason why Valerie wouldn't have killed her.

Tara wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "That’s what I wondered, did it matter if Valerie was Mrs. N’s daughter? Did I miss clues about this?"

The only clue I can remember was at some point Valerie was saying nice thi..."

Thanks, I remember Valerie’s comment, but just took it at the time as proof she’d been there awhile. You’re right, looking back, knowing she was her mother, Val was pretty unfazed by the whole thing - cold!

Susan in NC wrote: "Tara wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "That’s what I wondered, did it matter if Valerie was Mrs. N’s daughter? Did I miss clues about this?"

The only clue I can remember was at some point Valerie was sa..."

I agree its a tenuous clue for sure, but its the only one I could think of that pointed in that direction. Another reasoning for including that element might also have been a motive for Valerie to turn on Nigel. Clearly she didn't feel too badly about him knocking off Celia, as she was totally okay with manipulating her into turning into a thief.

Tara wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Tara wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "That’s what I wondered, did it matter if Valerie was Mrs. N’s daughter? Did I miss clues about this?"

The only clue I can remember was at some ..."

Good point - just reinforces my feeling that Valerie was one cold, manipulative young lady!

I think that this was a fairly clued whodunnit, albeit that the solid clues only come later when Nigel attempts to cover his tracks, crucially his murder of Patricia. I don’t think that a clue was required wrt Mrs. Nick being Valerie’s Mum, because that just provided Valerie with a motive to spill the beans about Nigel (I agree with Tara there), rather than being crucial to solving whodunnit.