You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

One of the group reads for July is The Architect's Apprentice by Elif Shafak. Please discuss the book in this thread.

Katrisa will be leading the discussion.

In order to receive a badge you must:
1. have read the book before or during July 2020.
2. discussed it in this thread. Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc. You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread. Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.
3. Report that you have read AND discussed the book in the reporting thread (include a brief summary of what you thought of the book).

A note on discussion: Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc.

In addition to this, the group reads are meant to be a "read along" so it is preferable that you discuss the book as you read rather than wait until you've finished the book.

And finally, discussion is not about just listing your thoughts. Please interact with the other group members, comment on their thoughts, and if they comment on yours, respond to them. This is what makes a good book discussion!

You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread.

Please refer to our group spoiler policy for further information.

General Rules:
1. Please mark your spoilers with the spoiler tags along with mentioning what stage of the book you are at so other's don't get a nasty shock. Chapter numbers/titles are generally best as they are the same across all formats and editions. See our spoiler policy
2. The book may be combined with the Year Long Challenge, Topplers, and Monthly Challenges.

Happy reading!

I started today. Only on chapter 3 but I'm loving the writing and the exotic feel to the story. It really feels like fantasy, I have to keep reminding it's a real-world setting.

I agree Margo! I am only on Ch 2 right now. This has been on my TBR for a long time. The only other Elif Shafak book I have read was 10 Minutes 38 Seconds in This Strange World which I enjoyed, but I think I am going to like this one better as - like you said - it almost feels like fantasy with the exotic, long ago setting and I love fantasy!

Oh wow! I just looked up the Selimiye and Suleymaniye mosques that they build in this book - amazing architecture! When I lived in Ireland back when I was a young adult, many of my friends used to visit Turkey on their holidays. I always wished to go.

I'm in CH 4 right now (view spoiler)[ I really love how atmospheric her writing is. I just feel like I am there! I love how sweet Jahan is with Chota! I love elephants and it was so cute how he nursed Chota and how she won't answer to any name but that. I just finished the part where he is trying to defend Chots to the Sultan's lady - I forget her title right now. She wants Chota to do tricks and Jahan in his head is like - "What do you mean what does the elephant do? The elephant is awesome! They mourn their dead." But out loud has to say that Chota was a warrior elephant because he's afraid they won't pay for the keep if the elephant is just an elephant. Also - I don't remember if Chota is a girl or a boy. I just made Chota a girl - but I don't remember from the book what the gender is. I'll have to go back and check - though I am not sure that's overly important to the story thus far at least. It's crazy that they threw Jahan and Chota overboard and they had to get rescued from an island! (hide spoiler)]

I guess I should have finished Ch 4 before posting! (view spoiler)[ They are sending them to war! How sad for them. It made me sad to see how they had to train Chota :( (hide spoiler)]

As soon as I get my library book, I will be joining you on this one. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for this weekend.

Cherie, I hope you get it soon.

Katrisa, I didn't know you had lived in Ireland, what part? I'm in Offaly.

Anyway, I have the audiobook book of this and the ebook. The ebook. The ebook doesn't have chapters, it is split into 4 sections so I'll give % in any spoilers I do. I'm following the ebook as the names are so unfamiliar. You have inspired me to want to see the place so I'll get busy googling later.

I'm 17% into the story but I'm just answering Katrisas chapter 4 spoiler.

Re your spoiler (view spoiler)[ Chote is a boy, I remember from his birth scene. This is the first time I've read about elephants and I've fallen in love with them too. I love the concerned the whole community showed about Chotes mum during her pregnancy and the trust and communicate between Jahan and the elephants is lovely. I hate that they're being trained for war.

I read another book by Elif Shafak called Honour and it was similar in style but sat in present day london so far less rich and atmospheric. She used the same technique of mini stories within the story which read almost like fables - I really like that.

Jahans story of their leaving the ship was very dramatic. I had to wonder if his tale of the captain and the reference to the wisdom of Soloman was entirely true or an embellished to impress the royal lady - I forget her name too. I wonder if she will be a romantic interest?

I hope Jahan doesn't get caught stealing!

(hide spoiler)]

I've advanced to "the master", chapter 45 of the audiobook, 35% into the book *sigh - why does audible make it so hard to discuss books?*

I am still in love with Elifs writing (view spoiler)[ i even enjoy the way she keepp making lists e.g. all the categories of people affected by the plague. I've never read a description of the plague that was not set in england. As with every civilization they looked for who to blame and religious strife broke out. I was so sad to see that as I loved the thought of all the people of the book living in harmony.

Chota leart his killing lessons a bit too well. It is scary how easy intelligent beings can be thought to kill. War brings a loss of innocence for both animal and carer. And I wonder if the sea captain will ever stop haunting Jahan? I'm guessing jahan will have to become an adult to find the courage to stand up to him. I'm very hazy about how much time has passed

(hide spoiler)]

Cherie wrote: "As soon as I get my library book, I will be joining you on this one. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for this weekend."

Same as Cherie. Mine is in transit so probably some time next week. Then I have to make an appointment to pick it up - hopefully not too long.

Margo wrote: "I've advanced to "the master", chapter 45 of the audiobook, 35% into the book *sigh - why does audible make it so hard to discuss books?*

I am still in love with Elifs writing i even enjoy the wa..."

Margo - I lived in Dublin - in Dun Laoghaire and in Dublin 4. My mom lived there for around 12 years and I spent a couple years with her in my early adulthood. I loved it there!

It's funny that your Audible gives you a % and not chapters - mine is the opposite! But judging from the progress bar I think we are in about the same spot.
(view spoiler)[ I agree that it is interesting to hear about the Pague from a non-British perspective. I have also been interested to read about plagues/pandemics in literature since we are in the middle of our own (obviously ours isn't the Black Death, but still interesting to see some of the same fears and scapegoating).

I was also sad to see Chota learn his killing lessons so well. :( (hide spoiler)]

I am at the beginning of Ch 10 (view spoiler)[ I loved the part where Jahan goes to the bookseller and he asks him if he is a learner and Jahan answers that he is in school and the bookseller answers "I didn't ask if you were a student! I asked if you were a learner." I thought it was super cool that Jahan got to visit Italy. I really wish we knew what Michelangelo wrote to Sinan though! It's really crazy to think how long ago those amazing buildings like the mosques and St. Peter's were built without computer-aided building programs and such. (hide spoiler)]

I am in Ch 11 (view spoiler)[ I loved the part where he talks about how he is designing the mosque with elements of his garden times with Mihrimah - quite the love letter there. It is sad to see how kind-hearted Jahan keeps getting screwed over by so many people though - the other apprentices, the robbers in Italy and now the Grand Vizier. I am glad that he got to see the princess again after being released from the dungeons. It was sweet that Mihrimah's son knows the stories Jahan told. !and Margo - I agree that I am not really sure about the passage of time in this book. I have no idea how old Jahan is supposed to be right now. (hide spoiler)]

I logged into my work email to check on the status of a notice that I am tracking over the weekend, although I am officially off work today and I had two notices from my library about books that were available.

I have my ebook copy downloaded and enjoyed reading the letter from Agra, India, 1632 - at the start of the book. (view spoiler)[ I wonder if we are going to find out what the secret is that is buried? (hide spoiler)]

My ebook is divided into four sections.
Before the Master begins as Book Index 11 (5.8%) and goes thru 19
The Master begins as Book Index 20 (19.3%) and goes thru 39
The Dome begins as Book Index 40 (41.3%) and goes thru 75
After The Master begins as Book Index 76 (76.5%) and goes thru 94

Before the Before the Master section is the letter from Agra (Book Index 8) and a section with the heading: Istanbul, 22 December 1574 (Book Index 9). <-- this is where I am.

I had to pause this book because I was really feeling another book I am reading right now - Wolves of the Calla. I'm rereading The Dark Tower series and I found my mind wandering toward that today. I'm about 1/2 way done with Architect's Apprentice and I'll dive back in tomorrow.

Katrisa, my audible book gives chapters, I can get % by using the share button. The ebook that I'm following (with audio) is divided into the same sections as Cherie has outlined.

I'm now 66% through, in The Dome, chapter 95 of my audio - phew!!! (view spoiler)[ I also loved the visit to Italy. I do enjoy when the author brings real historical figures into a fictional story. I suppose she felt that it would be better to have the letter stolen rather than put words into Michelangelos mouth but the theft didn’t quite ring true to me.

I am enjoying Jahans growing relationship with the gypsies. I love the way they stayed on in the dungeon after their release to look after him. His devotion to Chota must have impressed them. He was willing to humiliate himself for the elephants wellbeing.

It was a sad moment when someone (I can't remember the name) told him he had learded to use the ways of the court to survive. I was a bit horrified that he would inflict suffering on that other elephant in order to get rid of a rival keeper. He is not the innocent he was when he first arrived to the court but I understand that we all do what we need to in order to survive - like destroying the homes of the poor in order to save a temple. Form over function.
(hide spoiler)]

Katrisa, I went to college in Dublin so I lived there for 6 years. I was a northsider though! It was a great place to live but I don't regret moving to the country - the pace of life her suits me better now.

Margo wrote: "Katrisa, I went to college in Dublin so I lived there for 6 years. I was a northsider though! It was a great place to live but I don't regret moving to the country - the pace of life her suits me b..."

My mom moved out to the country after I lived with her - she lived in Donegal and Leitrim (which is where her family came from originally).

Ch 16 - (view spoiler)[ I was pretty disappointed in Jahan for poisoning that other elephant!

I find it interesting the ways Shafak compares bodies and architecture. There is one place earlier where they specifically correlate parts of the body with parts of a building and today when I was listening it was the part where they are having to clear out the structures people were illegally building and it says that cities are like people and are made of more than just their stones and wood they are flesh and bone as well and that you should pity a wounded city as you would a wounded person.

I was surprised that Yousef was a woman! (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 119, 80% (view spoiler)[ As Katrisa said, Yousef is a woman! That was pretty major in those times but n9w she has returned to life as a concubine, sonme change 😡

Now the princess is dead, the master is dead and Chota is dying. Poor Jahan will be all alone. I wonder if he will be cheif architect? Will we at last find out who caused allthe accidents? I had to stop listening mid chapter - very annoying!
(hide spoiler)]

Finished. I need to mull it over for a bit before I comment.

Margo wrote: "Chapter 119, 80% ."

I am just past this point in the book - Ch 17 (view spoiler)[ I am kinda wondering where she is going to go from here. The story really feels like it's winding down and everyone's either dead or dying except for Jahan and I just found out he is not going to be the chief architect and there are 3 hours left in the book... (hide spoiler)]

Ch 18 (view spoiler)[ Wow, I just found out that the other apprentice (I'm not sure how to spell his name because I am listening) was the thief! I am also wondering what the plan was supposed to have been with Jahan's seduction by the mistress who looked like Mihrimah since I don't think Jahan killing her was part of the plan. Jahan really needs to stop trusting people! I mean, the dude already didn't give Jahan the books that Sinan left him or the mantle for Chota. (hide spoiler)]

Book finished (view spoiler)[ Well, the end of the book actually picked up the pace a bit, so my worry from ch 17 turned out to be unfounded. I did think the story suffered from some pacing issues at times. I really like the atmosphere that Shafak creates. I kinda suspected that Jahan was really supposed to be the Chief architect after Sinan died especially with how weird the guy was when Jahan came asking if he was left anything. And they did end up explaining what the eunuch's plan was - to buy him off with drugs and women - which seems like a dud of a plan for someonne who has known Jahan for so long. I was glad to find out that he didn't actually kill the woman. I did not suspect that the nursemaid was so involved with treachery over the years, but the other apprentice didn't surprise me. I am not sure how I feel about the magic bit at the end where the nurse's curse of long life turns out to be real. It made me happy that Chota had a son! I am also glad that Jahan got to be a father, though I am not convinced that his young wife was as happy having an old man as a husband as the books says - though, Jahan is kind, so there are probably worse fates for a widow in the 1600s. (hide spoiler)]

Hmm, still not sure how I feel about the end but I agree what you are saying Katrisa (view spoiler)[ I can't help but feel a little let down with the end. It was very realistic, the good guys rarely win in real life but in fiction we have greater expectations! Maybe it is normal in Turkish stories that the hero doesn't get what strive for but rather they get what will make them happy.

It is very fitting that Jahan has another surrogate child who is intelligent and inquisitive. That he ends up involved in the building of the Taj Mahal is awesome and very unexpected.

I hate that the cheif eunuch and the other apprentice got away with it! In the stories I usually read evil never wins which is why I think that one is more real but so much less satisfying.

(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

I read the section at the begging tonight titled
Istanbul, 22 December 1574
(view spoiler)[ Tough being a Sultan’s younger brothers or the sons of the “late” one, during a change of rulership. I like Javan and Sinan. (hide spoiler)]

Very easy to read and understand.

Agreed Cherie. It's one way of dealing with potential competition!

I loved the writing style and the way the story was told. I wonder if that is typical of the way tales are spun in that part of the world or if it is just this author - I'll have to do more research LOL

Margo, ya I'm not sure. Shafak is the only Turkish author I have read

I’ve started the hardcover book - it doesn’t have chapters, just sections like Cherie described for her ebook. The first section, entitled Istanbul, 22 December 1574 (view spoiler)[was a great opener! So intriguing- I was catching my breath as Jahan crept into the chapter and discovered the first arm. That worked out well for him that it was the chief architect that showed up to meet with Sultan Murad III. (hide spoiler)]

I’m now in the first 10 pages of the section, Before the Master where(view spoiler)[Jahan has disembarked in Istanbul. That captain Gareth is a piece of work. Wondering what’s going to happen with Jahan having to steal jewelry and gems from the palace for him. I wonder what happened to the mahout - did they say or did I miss it? Maybe I’ll find out in the next few pages. It’s cute that the elephant’s name is Chota because the word means “small” in Hindi and clearly the elephant is anything but! (hide spoiler)]

Aha, now I know why the elephant was named Chota!(view spoiler)[He was half the size of an average calf when he was born. (hide spoiler)]

The fate of the mahout is explained at some point. I'm glad you're enjoying the story Lilia - it was indeed a great start and it gets better!

Thanks Margo, I got to that part yesterday evening. Jahan definitely deserves to be the mahout. I’m enjoying the read and seeing Istanbul in The 1500s. Istanbul is one of my fav cities - it has such a unique European-Asian feel with the city straddling both continents. There’s a Netflix series - Rise of Empires: Ottoman. It’s set about a century or so before this book though, but it’s a great series. By the way, I love the cover of the book!

I got through to page 116 of the Master section last evening. I’m surprised that Jahan (view spoiler)[has been able to survive this far, given he has no mahout skills and he’s learning on the fly. He’s had some lucky breaks so far, maybe because he’s had a lousy childhood and the gods are now giving him a break?! Sinan is rising In prominence with his bridge building expertise and his strategic thinking to destroy the bridge behind them. He’s becoming for Jahan the mentor that he never had with his horrible stepfather. (hide spoiler)]

Apart from the Jahan storyline, I’m liking the social, cultural, and political backdrop. Istanbul was a city that people flocked to as a thriving center - people from all over Europe and Asia.

Lilisa, thanks for the show rec. I think the setting of this book was my favorite part.

I've added that to my watch list Lilisa.

The palace ...“gates closed like lips guarding secrets”.

I like the descriptive writing.

I just got to the section titled The Master. Unfortunately my Nook tablet needs to be charged and I need to go to bed and charge myself.

Before the Master (view spoiler)[ I enjoyed the stories Jahan told the Princess and getting to know him. He seems to be pretty quick on his feet. Is this going to get him in trouble? (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ I loved Jahans stories but I took them with a pinch of salt. I want to believe the tale about Chotas birth though! (hide spoiler)]

I like the writing too. Re: Jahan, (view spoiler)[Jahan is a pretty resourceful guy - you wonder how he’s figured out how to survive. A combination of innate abilities and learned behavior, I imagine. Yeah, I wonder how much is truth and how much is fiction - I’m guessing a bit of both. (hide spoiler)]

I updated my reading status for the book and decided to finally came bac to see what spoilers I could read - up to where I am.
I am in the Master section, in Book Index 33. the little dome symbol is at the start of this section. There is only one page left in this section and then it goes to Book Index 34.

As far as I can tell, Katrisa's spoiler from her Chapter 10, in message 11 on July 03. Is at this same place. (view spoiler)[ Jahan has just come back from the book seller with La Divina Commedia. I liked Sinan's comment about learning a language. I keep thinking that it must have been easier to learn languages back then. It seems like nothing for the Master to expect Jahan to learn Italian. It is hard to tell how much time has passed but Jahan must be 19 or 20 now. He has been to war and was wounded and they have been working on the Mosque for seven years. (Google indicates that the construction began before 1550 and was completed in 1557). (hide spoiler)]

Still in The Master section. Book Index 36. (view spoiler)[ Chota is not a virgin any more. Funny what the Gypsies made Jahan do to get their help. I feel bad about the Princess Mihrimah but a trip to Rome to heal a broken heart cannot be all bad. (hide spoiler)]

Cherie wrote: "I updated my reading status ."

Ya, I found it hard to determine how much time was passing in this book, but it kinda added to the fantastic-ish atmosphere, so I didn't mind too much

Cherie wrote: "Still in the Master section. Book Index 36. [spoilers removed]"

I love the Gyspies!

I finished The Master section. (view spoiler)[ Rome - How fantastic that Jahan and Davud got to meet Michelangelo. How awful that they got robbed and lost all of their sketches and tools and money and the letter. I wonder who the guy was? The same one that was following them? Hopefully, Captain Gareth will leave Jahan alone in the future. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, that was cool! I love when historical figures come into fiction books. I found it a bit disconcerting not knowing how much time was passing, it was really the only fault I found with the story.

Yesterday morning I had a post ready to go and lost the entire thing. Didn’t have time for a re-do. Second try here...I’m in the Dome section. One gripe about this book is the lack of numbered chapters. Re: the Master section, it was cool that (view spoiler)[Jahan got to meet Michelangelo. It’s an historical fact that an apprentice of Sinan’s did meet Michelangelo. Wouldn’t it have been great if Sinan had met M - two great contemporaries having a creative conversation about their designs, dreams, etc. (hide spoiler)]

In the Dome section,(view spoiler)[Jahan’s impetuousness gets him in trouble. How easily he got thrown in prison getting on the wrong side of the Grand Vizier, but he gets to meet Balaban again. I’m liking this Gypsy guy! Okay so he got out of prison with the help of Mihrimah - how did she make that happen when it was her husband that had Jahan thrown in prison. There wasn’t a reason given - I don’t think I missed it? (hide spoiler)]

I’ve been watching The Protector series on Netflix set in Istanbul and they mention Sinan - it’s in Season 1, in one of the early episodes. There’s a scene where the Protector and one of his most Loyal Ones are in Sinan’s mausoleum searching for a gem!

I had a terrible migraine on Friday and have not read anything for the last two days. I listened to a couple of audiobooks when I wasn’t sleeping.

I’m in the early Dome section (view spoiler)[ Jahan is going to the observatory to try to get some books for Sinan. I spent some time Thursday looking up the observatory and reading about Takiyuddin. I wanted to know more about the comment, if it had a name. (Not that I could find, but it was seen and reported all over Europe.) (hide spoiler)]

It seemed like The Dome section was nothing but a series of unfortunate occurrences. (view spoiler)[ I wonder if we will find out who was causing all of the accidents on the work sites?
I was surprised when Yusuf was exposed as a woman but it was terrible that she had to be banished after she saved Sinan’s life. It was so unfair for Jahan to blame Sinan. Jahan was lucky not to have caught the plague after visiting Nicklaus. Imagine living to 99 1/2 and working practically right up until his death. I was sad for Jahan when Sinan died. So many have passed out of his life. (hide spoiler)]

I am in the After the Master section. (view spoiler)[Jahan is questioning Sinan’s will, if he had been left anything, after visiting Davud’s house. I wonder what is going on? (hide spoiler)]

After the Master, Book Index 88
(view spoiler)[ Oh, poor Chota. Oh, poor Jahan! It was Davud behind everything. How terrible. I’m just at the part where he has been rescued by the Gypsies. (hide spoiler)]. Is it just me or is this story just l-o-n-g?

LOL It is undoubtedly long Cherie but I just loved that atmosphere. I could have stayed there longer 😉

Lilisa wrote: "Yesterday morning I had a post ready to go and lost the entire thing. Didn’t have time for a re-do. Second try here...I’m in the Dome section. One gripe about this book is the lack of numbered chap..."

Lilia, I often lose my posts - why is it always the long ones? 🤣