The Old Curiosity Club discussion

We have already started discussing the novel as a whole in the last thread, the one on the final chapters, but nevertheless, I am opening this thread here in which we can continue our discussion on the entire novel.

Here you can share your thoughts about e.g. your favourite quotations, about the characters you liked or disliked most, and also about the question of whether you think that Dombey got his deserts or that he got away too cheaply.

Dombey and Son marks the beginning of Dickens's more mature works in that it is - maybe with the exception of Barnaby Rudge - the first novel Dickens planned more carefully, whereas the plots of his previous novels evolved in the course of writing. In what ways does this new kind of planning a novel show? Are there any symbols and images that accompany us as we go along? Is the web of characters woven more carefully? Does DS seem more of a piece than the preceding novels? - Please share your thoughts.

I hope everyone enjoyed this novel. To me, it is Dickens’s most under appreciated novel. Because of our discussions I have added much marginalia to my already well-trodden Penguin orange-spined copy. Thanks everyone.

In some ways I think Dickens let Mr Dombey off too lightly. While Florence did forgive him, and while Dombey had reformed and come to see the error of his ways, I confess I wanted him to pay a higher price. Perhaps a permanent physical ailment or condition, maybe more shame from society, I’m not sure what.

Edith Dombey was a truly fascinating female character. I can think of no other previous female character with as much psychological depth or as much striking and powerful presence. With the addition of Alice, Dickens gave his readers a close look at how one’s fate often hangs on a thread of either nature or nurture or both.

The railway as presented in this novel was a wonderful symbol of progress, power, and destruction. All elements of personal and social life was uprooted with its coming. I often wonder why Dickens never again gave the railway as much presence in his later novels. The later novels take us back to earlier times in England.

And then, of course, there is Florence. She is as good and pure and innocent as any previous young heroine created by Dickens. He infused her with more interest, more nuance, and more spunk than previous young females. Never once do we have to say “poor Florence.” She is a survivor.

This novel was more organized and mature than the previous ones, and I really enjoyed that. I also enjoyed that I couldn't predict what would happen next. At first, I didn't like that Paul died so quickly, but now I accept it, because the story was more about father and daughter anyway.

I think Dombey got a good dose of punishment, considering that his son died, his wife left him, his employee betrayed him, and his business failed. Still, he wasn't punished specifically for shunning Florence her entire childhood, his most grievous error, in my opinion. I'm glad he and Florence are now happy together, but I do like Peter's idea of Dombey having a permanent condition, just to assure the reader that he is finally humbled.

This was my first time reading D&S. And while I often have to let Dickens' books sink in and read a second time before I feel I truly have read them, this was not the case with D&S (or BR, which was a first-timer for me too). Discussing the books really helps :-)

I too love Peter's idea of Dombey having a permanent condition of sorts. While in the end I love him being reconsiled with Florence and the gang, and having a better emotional condition than he had, it would have had some kind of balance if the better condition on that point had been paid by a worse condition on another point.

Still, I like the picture that is painted in the end. They end up happy, but it was at a cost. They all had to give something up at some point; Walter had to go to sea and give up his safety, Sol his nephew, Captain Cuttle had to give up his friend for a while, Florence and Dombey had to give up Paul (and Florence the relative safety of her meekness, and Dombey a huge chunk of his pride) etc. to get to this point.

I too loved Florence, and how she was shown as a strong person who overcame abuse and became spunky.

I agree that Florence is a more bearable heroine than, let's say, Little Nell even though she also does a lot of crying, and pining and suffering - but I liked her all the same for taking the initiative with Walter and for doing so much for Paul, e.g. studying what he had to learn in order to help him understand his lessons better. On the whole, Florence is a more believable character than Nell.

I liked the reconciliation between Dombey and his daughter and don't really think that he should have been inflicted with a lasting physical condition because he has already lost a lot and has been made to eat humble-pie. The severe illness he went through at the time when Cousin Feenix paid his visit to Florence can be seen as some kind of inner moral cleansing, perhaps, and to see him a loving and caring grandfather warms my heart. In a way, this ending reminds me of the ending of A Christmas Carol in that Scrooge is completely reformed in the end - although he was in some ways probably even a tougher customer to deal with than Dombey. They probably had the same aversion to being close to other people and to showing their emotions - and in the end. they had to learn the hard way but were given the opportunity to make use of the lesson they learnt.

One of my favourite characters, I must admit, was Major Bagstock: I would not like to meet him in person, or at least not to have anything to do with him on a regular basis, but he was very grotesque and provided a lot of entertainment to me. It is quite tempting to imitate his way of speaking, by the way :-)

On the whole, the novel impressed me with Dickens's skill at keeping all those characters, plots and subplots in such a good balance. You really feel like diving into a microcosm full of life when reading DS. I might have said it already, but I liked the concluding chapters because here Dickens had lots of the earlier characters reappear in order to bring their stories to a close: This shows that he is a writer who respects the characters he creates - something that I find very likeable.

I never thought of this ending being similar to A Christmas Carol, maybe that's why I like it so much. In the first chapter I said poor Dombey, and I still think so. He must have been raised by parents who taught him that what was important was the firm and money, instead of ever showing him love. Then he had to grow up with that sister of his, his first wife died, his son died, his second wife left him, and left him with his most trusted employee, he's thrown from a horse and injured, his more important than anything business fails, he sees someone run over by a train, and he only realizes what Florence means to him when he has lost her forever. Poor Dombey.

Kim wrote: "I never thought of this ending being similar to A Christmas Carol, maybe that's why I like it so much. In the first chapter I said poor Dombey, and I still think so. He must have been raised by par..."

Kim and Alissa present much evidence that Mr Dombey’s life and world was far from one without pain and suffering. And yes, Dombey’s father must have imprinted much on him in regards to the value of the firm Dombey and Son. If Dombey’s own father was like our Mr Dombey in the novel then I say Poor Paul. Remember how Dombey senior would go in secret to little Paul’s school and stand outside but never announce his presence? Perhaps this is an example of the crack in Dombey’s character, a crack that proved Dombey’s humanity struggling to get out from under his own father’s weight upon him.

The Canadian singer Leonard Cohen has a line in a song “celebrate the cracks that’s how the light gets in.” Perhaps I should amend my thought that Dombey should have some permanent physical affliction at the end of the novel and acknowledge the fact that psychological pain and suffering is equally horrid and disabling.

And so, as I celebrate the strength and character of Florence I say Poor Dombey.

I really enjoyed the book, although I found it a lot heavier going in parts than the other Dickens that I have read. I even took a break for a couple of weeks in the middle to read Oliver Twist for some relief.
I did find Dombey a fascinating character, even though I was left with little sympathy for him in the end.
It would have been interesting so see where Carker ended up eventually if the train hadn't done for him. Would he and his siblings ever been reconciled ?
I found the book to be much more satisfying than Pickwick for example, because it was much darker in tone, with a lot more depth to the characters, although to be honest I found some chapters hard going, such as the scene between Dombey and Edith where she drops the feathers. Very interesting from a psychological point of view, but slow going for a thriller-reader like myself.
I'll definitely read it again though, and I expect I'll find it even more satisfying a second time round.

Very enjoyable interesting characters
I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Probably someone already mentioned the D&S on youtube
It is very well done

Tristram wrote: "I liked the reconciliation between Dombey and his daughter and don't really think that he should have been inflicted with a lasting physical condition because he has already lost a lot and has been made to eat humble-pie."


I agree. I would have found a lasting physical condition unnecessarily melodramatic. He lost Dombey and Son! It was what he cared about most in the world! That's punishment enough.

I found it interesting that he couldn't see Florence as what he valued most in the world until he'd lost his business and with it his pride. He was entirely blinded by pride.

I would say Dombey got off too easily because Florence is supernaturally devoted to him, but we know from the end of the novel that even though she forgives him his faults and neglect of her, he is haunted by it for the rest of his life. That seems to me significant punishment for him. In a more merciful world, we would all be so forgiven for our mistakes.

I am jumping on the bandwagon with all those who appreciate Florence. While I too liked her initiative in proposing to Walter, I was even more impressed by the moment when (I would say) she grows up, and sees her father for what he really is, which is not the father she has wanted to love all these years, and leaves him for people who really will love her. I don't think many people as helpless as society made Florence and as isolated as her father made her would have had that much clarity and courage.

Special mention for characterization to Cleopatra, Feenix, and the last bottle of Madiera.

Oh, and Tox! Special mention to Tox and her dingy little tenement. I do not believe for a moment that her interest in Dombey at the end of the book is platonic, but whatever. She is adaptable and Victorian divorce is hard to come by.

Yes it is, and I think Tox is doing better this way than if she had married Dombey. She too has learned some valuable lessons, and made some real friends in the Toodles, found a bit of herself back, while if she had married Dombey, she would have been consumed by her adoration.

Jantine wrote: "Yes it is, and I think Tox is doing better this way than if she had married Dombey. She too has learned some valuable lessons, and made some real friends in the Toodles, found a bit of herself back, while if she had married Dombey, she would have been consumed by her adoration."

That is true, and also it would have been really bad for Dombey.

Like David, I found some scenes very hard reading, namely the ones where Florence and her friends reunited in Sol Gills's shop: That was a little bit too long to my taste, but what would Dickens be without his sentimentality?

I can't imagine that Carker would ever have made it up with his brother and his sister because this man was too much of a schemer and a social climber, and the thought of having family in such a modest condition and with such a social blemish on them would have been to hard to bear to him. Besides, there is too little genuine feeling in him, although Dickens adds the detail of the untouched garden, which used to be Harriet's, and which shows that even Carker did not find it in himself to rid himself of that memory of happier times. All in all, the characters are much more ambivalent and refined than Dickens's cast in Nicholas Nickleby, for instance.

As to Dombey's punishment, apart from losing Dombey and Son, there is also something else which will continually haunt him, namely the awareness that he cannot make up for the time he lost: All those years when he could have been a better father to Florence and lived in her love will never return, and he has to live with the thought that he wasted a great part of his life.

I just finished this a few days ago and really loved it. I'm reading Dickens in chronological order too bu only started this year.
I particularly loved the tension between Edit, Carker and Dombey.
I would have liked to know more of Edith's motivations for going off with Carker.
In all preceding scenes it's obvious that she despises him so I found it a bit strange when they're supposed to have run off together. Also it seems unlikely that Carker actually believed they could be together - he seemed fully aware of her loathing of him beforehand.
I wasn't sure whether Old Mrs Brown and Alice brought anything to the plot - although there's a connection to Edit it didn't really have any impact on anything.
Captain Cuttle was a favourite for me- his fondness for Walter and friendship with Sol was heat warming and he was an amusing fellow.