THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The December 2020 theme read is on any book or books of your choice, which can include a novel, that covers either Operation Downfall and/or the Atomic Bombs in 1945.

I really enjoyed American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer by Kai Bird. A very interesting story about the man involved in the Manhattan Project.

Several weeks ago, I received the following book, which deals with one of the most momentous years in recorded history: 1945 ---

'Countdown 1945: The Extraordinary Story of the 116 Days that Changed the World' - Chris Wallace

KOMET wrote: "Several weeks ago, I received the following book, which deals with one of the most momentous years in recorded history: 1945 ---

'[book:Countdown 1945: The Extraordinary Story of the 116 Days that..."

Perfect book for the the theme read!

The two best Operation Downfall novels I know--

David Westheimer, "Downfall" (orig. title, "Lighter Than a Feather"

Alfred Coppell, "The Burning Mountain".

DoctorM wrote: "The two best Operation Downfall novels I know--

David Westheimer, "Downfall" (orig. title, "Lighter Than a Feather"

Alfred Coppell, "The Burning Mountain"."

Thanks for those two recommendations :)

I am reading:

by Ronald Takaki

Nice selection for the theme read Bryan.

I'm thinking of starting this book by Paul Ham for the theme month, its been sitting in my library since it was published in 2011:

Hiroshima Nagasaki by Paul Ham

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm thinking of starting this book by Paul Ham for the theme month, its been sitting in my library since it was published in 2011:

[book:Hiroshima Nagasaki|1..."

Excellent one Rick, hopefully you'll find it as interesting as I did.

I really liked your review Jonny so I am sure I will enjoy the book.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I really liked your review Jonny so I am sure I will enjoy the book."

Too kind Rick, fingers crossed it lives up to expectations.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm thinking of starting this book by Paul Ham for the theme month, its been sitting in my library since it was published in 2011..."

Ham seems to echo the same arguments that Takaki makes. It was not necessary to drop those bombs. It wasn't all about saving lives.

Another thing that I now appreciate from the book is the scale of the Manhattan project: millions of dollars and over 120,000 employees. It was a huge bureaucratic machine that would be very difficult to pivot if Truman decided not to drop the bombs, plus the vast investment.

I am keen to see how Ham prosecutes his argument that dropping the bombs was unnecessary.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I am keen to see how Ham prosecutes his argument that dropping the bombs was unnecessary."

Me too, AR. Another part of the argument against using the bomb to save lives is that the use was a deterrent for Soviet expansion. The Americans wanted to end the war faster by using the bombs as the Soviets entered the war against Japan.

I am enjoying Paul Ham's book so far, I never knew that Puccini's Madame Butterfly was set in Nagasaki. However I was disappointed to read in the chapter concerning the bombing of Germany and in particular the section covering the raid against Dresden in 1945, the author's use of discredited casualty figures, stating; "At least 100,000 civilians lost their lives in Dresden in a single night (upper estimates put the number of dead at 135,000)." The book was published in 2011 so the author should have been aware of recent research (2008) concerning the death toll at Dresden:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/200...

https://www.spiegel.de/international/...

https://www.smh.com.au/world/death-to...

He also mentions the discredited story of USAAF Mustangs strafing civilian refugees from the city:

"Then, lest any sign of life dare show itself, scores of low flying Mustang fighters strafed the smouldering ruin and mowed down dishevelled crowds on the river banks and in the gardens where a remnant of the Kreuzkirche children's choir and some British prisoners of war had sought refuge."

For the full story of this issue:
https://www.luftkrieg-ueber-europa.de...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I am enjoying Paul Ham's book so far, I never knew that Puccini's Madame Butterfly was set in Nagasaki. However I was disappointed to read in the chapter concerning the bombing of Germany and in pa..."

The main downside in the book Rick; Fred Taylor had managed to scotch those myths back in 2004 in Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945. Anything to make your point... Stick with it, it does improve.

Interesting, AR. Takaki uses the correct figures.

He mentions Dresden (and Tokyo) as a set up that these air bombings "began to undermine the ethical view that civilians should not be targeted."

I'll stick with he book Jonny as I have enjoyed a lot of the author's other books so I am prepared to give him some leeway.

Good to hear that your book is using the correct figures Bryan.

I started To Hell and Back: The Last Train from Hiroshima today for the December Group Read. The Preface reads:

"Charles Pellegrino's riveting book chronicles the atomic bombing through the voices and lives of its survivors as it has never been told before. To Hell and Back captures the terror of the bombing from the prospective of the hibakusha, their torment suffered down to the present, and their continuing roles as emissaries for peace and reconciliation. Pellegrino combines cinematic eloquence and clarity with scientific rigor to reveal why some, even those close to the hypocenter, survived while others died instantly.

The author does not address the geostrategic issues of great power conflict and presidential decision-making that have been the staple of long-running debate among historians and remain contested today: the decision to unleash the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the bombing of civilians; the number of lives lost (or saved); the roll of the bombs in ending the Second World War; the legacy of that moment in subsequent Soviet-American and global conflict and contemporary threats of nuclear proliferation. Pellegrino never strays from his singular mission of chronicling the lives of ordinary and extraordinary people before and after the bomb, and the fates of that sometimes intertwined their lives. His work invites comparison with the writings of Japanese poets, novelists and ordinary citizens who recorded the bombing and whose words continue to inspire..."

Enough! It was stated that there would be no politicization of the bombing, just the facts of what happened. Well, I feel the author is letting some of his political leanings show. I'll continue reading, but for those interested in this title be forewarned that the descriptions of the bombing, wounds and deaths of the people in Hiroshima are graphic!

Sounds like a very interesting book Gregg and I will be keen to hear your final thoughts once you have finished reading it. The book that I'm reading on the subject covers the geostrategic issues along with numerous first-hand accounts of those involved, including many of the Japanese survivors.

Hiroshima Nagasaki by Paul Ham

Thanks, Gregg. It seems like a different viewpoint from my book and Rick's.

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - In the book Paul Ham mentioned the Radium Girls:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/authorkatemo...

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article...

From To Hell and Back: The Last Train from Hiroshima, the end of the chapter 2 titled "Gojira's Egg."

**Warning** The following is a graphic description from a Hiroshima survivor and something I had never heard of before and pray I never see. The author tells of the same thing happening to people.

"The bomb had created more abstract injuries than radiation sickness and the pierced boys. "De-gloving" would become a polite, antiseptic term used by physicians to describe what happened when skin, whether or not it had been burned, was exposed to the ring of compressed supersonic air that radiated out from the central shock-cone zone of the Geibi Bank through the zone of glass nails. The skin was often pulled off by the wind-pulled off as if it had been bound to the body with all the adhesive quality of a leather glove, and could be stripped away just as easily.

Private Shigeru Shimoyama, having survived the peculiar horror of being nailed to a wooden beam by the bomb, now found a pinkish-white horse standing alone in his path. All of its skin and fur were gone. The sight fascinated more than horrified him, and it horrified him a lot. The animal did not appear to be in pain at all, and in fact it tried to follow the solider as he moved on.

Every time the solider looked back, the horse-its flesh de-gloved all the way down to layers of pink musculature-stared at him pleadingly and made faltering steps in his direction. Like Sumiko Kirihara and the Ito boy, Shigeru began to wonder if the end of the world might look something like this.

Shigeru had been studying to become a Christian, and when he dreamed of the pink horse-as during many a night for the rest of his life he would-he recalled a passage from the Revelation of John:

And I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, "Come and see."
And I looked.
And I beheld a pale horse.
And his name that sat upon him was Death.
And hell followed him."

Shocking description Gregg, the stuff of nightmares!

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Hiroshima Nagasaki" - In the book Paul Ham mentioned the Radium Girls:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/authorkatemo...

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article......"

Good grief. I had never heard of this.

Gregg wrote: "From To Hell and Back: The Last Train from Hiroshima, the end of the chapter 2 titled "Gojira's Egg."

**Warning** The following is a graphic description from a Hiroshima survivor ..."

Wow, a true hell on earth. I suspect the Manhattan Project scientists were focused on radiation, but not the myriad of other horrors this blast did to people.

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - In the book Paul Ham provided some details on the dire straits of the Japanese home defence against air raids:

"In sum, the full weight of the cities' defence against air raids fell upon elderly men, the women and children. One statistic sums up the hopelessness of the situation: by June, 3,400,000 Japanese schoolchildren had been mobilised to work in demolition teams or factories. The majority - like 12-year-old Yoko and 15-year-old Tsuruji - were put to work at the start of the American incendiary campaign. In doing so, the old men in Tokyo knowingly exposed the nation's youth to death by firestorm."

Hiroshima Nagasaki by Paul Ham

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - A summary of the American air effort against Japan:

"In the second half of 1945, LeMay's crews drew on 100,000 tons (90,000 tonnes) of ordnance per month as they systematically burned Japan to a cinder. So thorough were the firebombing raids on Japan's six largest cities - Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Yokohama, Kobe and Kawasaki - that by 15 June 1945 most of their inhabitants were dead, wounded or forced into the country: 126,762 killed, 315,922 wounded and 1,439,115 homes destroyed. Nationwide, firebombing had wiped out 66 cities, killed 300,000 civilians, wounded about a million, destroyed more than 3.5 million homes and driven some eight million people into the rural areas. The national figures are rough but the scale and proportions are accurate."

The Firebombing of Japan:
https://www.tampabay.com/news/militar...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rai...

Frightening figures Rick, and with so little military significance.

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - Some figures in regards to some medical requirements for the projected invasion of Kyushu:

"Meanwhile, the Olympic Medical Plan (published 31 July) estimated 30,700 American casualties within 15 days of the invasion of Kyushu (requiring 11,670 pints/5520 litres of blood); 71,000 casualties after 30 days (27,000 pints/12,770 litres); and 395,000 casualties after 160 days (150,000 pints/71,000 litres). In each case about a third of the projected casualties were listed as battlefield dead and wounded; the rest would be general illness and non-battle injuries."

Operation Olympic:
https://www.rusinsw.org.au/Papers/201...

https://www.navyhistory.org.au/operat...

Hiroshima Nagasaki by Paul Ham

A few more statistics and figures from; "Hiroshima Nagasaki":

"By June-July 1945, American air raids had firebombed 66 cities, destroyed 2,510,000 Japanese homes and rendered 30 per cent of the urban population homeless. Estimates of the number killed and wounded vary: General LeMay, Commander of America's Pacific air offensive, was apt to boast of more than a million dead; others have placed the figure at several hundred thousand. 'In its climatic five months of jellied air attacks' the US Amy Air Force official history states, LeMay's bombers 'killed outright 310,000 Japanese, injured 412,000, and rendered 9,200,000 homeless ... Never in the history of war has such colossal devastation been visited on an enemy at so slight a cost to the conqueror.'"

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Never in the history of war has such colossal devastation been visited on an enemy at so slight a cost to the conqueror.'"

I would argue that conquest of the new world with it's 90% death toll goes right there on the top with little losses to the European nations.

But yeah, the bombing of Japan is one of the lesser known evils of the world, something not really taught in history lessons at least in here. Max Hastings had some vivid stories about the experiences on ground in his Nemesis/Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944-45.

Good point Perato.

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - The effects of the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima:

"The weapon exploded directly above Shima Hospital, in the centre of Hiroshima, instantly killing all patients, doctors and nurses. The heatwave charred every living thing within a 500-metre radius, and scorched uncovered skin at 2 kilometres. Those who saw the flash within this circle did not live to experience their blindness. The ground temperature ranged briefly from 3000 to 4000 degrees Celsius; iron melts at 1535 degrees Celsius. Water in tanks and ponds boiled. Leaves in distant parks turned crinkly brown, then to ash; tree trunks exploded. Tiles melted within 1100 metres - kilns achieve that effect at 1650 degrees Celsius.

Shock and blast waves rippled over the city, punched the innards out of buildings and homes, and bore the detritus on the nuclear wind. Brick buildings two storeys and higher were completely destroyed within a 1.6-kilometre radius, and concrete buildings severely damaged; all wooden structures collapsed within 2.3 kilometres of the detonation point. Within the immediately vicinity, the blast pressure was 32 tonnes per square metre; and the wind speed 440 kilometres per second; 3 kilometres away, these fell to 1.2 tonnes and 30 metres per second.

Tens of thousands of people within a 2-kilomtre radius were burned, decapitated, disembowelled, crushed and irradiated. The sudden drop in air pressure blew their eyes from their sockets and ruptured their eardrums; the shock wave cleared their bodies apart. They were the lucky ones."

Hiroshima Nagasaki by Paul Ham

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - Paul Ham mentions Tsutomu Yamaguchi, one of apparently 165 Japanese people who experienced both Atomic bombs in 1945:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/japans-d...

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - Paul Ham also offers some details on the hibakusha - 'bomb-affected people' and the discrimination they suffered in Japan after the war:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakus....

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/202...

"Hiroshima Nagasaki" - Paul Ham also provides details on the Japanese Catholic population of Nagasaki and how the bomb affected them in 1945 and after:

https://artsandculture.google.com/exh...

Thank God for the Atom Bomb & Other Essays
Paul Fussell was a army officer commanding a combat company in Europe and slated for the possible invasion of Japan. He estimated that in the PTO 22,000 people were dying every day. I am assuming that he was not including conventional firebombing of Japan. Fire bombs immolated many 10's of thousands in a night.

Footnote, it has been a while since I read this essay , he may have only counted allied losses.

IOW a few weeks of more war, and not counting the possible dead in a landing on the Japanese mainland, would have killed as many as were to die in either atomic bomb attach. His conclusion, goes with the title of his essay.

Speaking for myself, A lot of allied strategic bombing fails the stink test- in Europe or Asia.Several of its chief prosecutors and designers were aware that absent a US victory they would be
facing war crimes charges.

The Fog of War: Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara MacNamara is pretty graphic in admitting this POV

While not specifically on Operation Downfall or the Bombs, I just finished Ian Toll third volume of his Pacific War Trilogy



It covers the time for the Strategic Conference between MacA, Nimitiz, and FDR in Hawaii during the Summer of '44 through to the occupation of Japan following the surrendor. About the last 200 pages or so talk about the Atomic bombs, the planning for the invasion and the occupation.

Very, very good, I rated it 5 stars

Another reminder to get started on this trilogy, thanks happy :)

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Another reminder to get started on this trilogy, thanks happy :)"

I think you'll like the trilogy, AR. You probably won't learn a lot of new information (considering the number of books you have read), but they are comprehensive and concise volumes that encapsulate much of the U.S. side of the Pacific War.

I will try and set aside some time this year Paul to get started on the series.

In 2017 I read The Tibbett's Story, the biography of Colonel (later General) Paul Tibbetts who flew the Enola Gay on 6 August 1945. I am sure you guys know that he had named the B-29 after his mother.
I have not yet read the book about the tragedy of the ship that had carried the bomb to the Pacific and was sunk on the way home (can't remember what it was called). It was sunk but owing to its secret mission it took a long time before anyone came to the rescue, the result being hundreds of men in the water were either drowned or eaten by sharks. I'm sure one of you will tell me the title. :-D

Hi Gary, the most recent book on the USS Indianapolis is this title:

Indianapolis: The True Story of the Worst Sea Disaster in U.S. Naval History and the Fifty-Year Fight to Exonerate an Innocent Man by Lynn Vincent

Afternoon all. On the Apple podcast store the historian Kevin Ruane has a good episode on History Hit WW2. It is a very brief overview of the Bomb and the end of World War Two. If your knowledge is not very good then it is worth a listen. If your knowledge is good though you won’t gain much from it.

Thanks for that Matt.

My brother in law who despairs of finding me a book I have not read on WW2 bought me “Fallout” by Lesley Blume for Xmas. Blume highlights how after Hiroshima and Nagasaki the US began a secret propaganda campaign to hide the devastation and painful deaths caused by the two bombs. They claimed the bombs were the ultimate peacekeepers and General Groves of Operation Manhattan commented “Deaths from the atomic bomb were very pleasant way to die”. John Hersey from the New Yorker was able to get into Hiroshima and in August 1946 The New Yorker published only the one article in its edition – Hersey looked at the impact of the bomb through five surviving civilians.

The article was a world wide sensation and re printed as book. It re-opened a number of the arguments well described in “The making of the Atomic Bomb” (Rhodes) on the ethics of using the bomb with even leading military figures such as Admiral Bull Halsey seeing the bombing as mistake.

It is an interesting and well written book. I fall into that category of people born well after 1945 who presume that there was immediate knowledge of the impact of the bombs on Japanese civilians. As such the book is useful in highlighting how the US military and Dept of State tried to hide the impacts of the bomb and it was not until Hersey’s article that there was knowledge and a wide ranging debate around the impact of the bomb. Articles by the Australia journalist Burchett who entered Hiroshima shortly after the bombing did not attract as much attention.

John Hersey is also famous for being the author of an excellent and lengthy article on JF Kennedy’s experiences after his patrol boat was sunk. The article was crucial in raising awareness of Kennedy and contributed to his election to Congress (His father printed off thousands of copies for distribution)

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Gary, the most recent book on the USS Indianapolis is this title:

[bookcover:Indianapolis: The True Story of the Worst Sea Disaster in U.S. Naval History and the Fifty-Year Fight to Exonerate a..."

Thanks, Rick. I now realise this is already on my TBR list – I must try to catch up :-D

Hi Alex and thanks for that excellent summary on the book; "Fallout". It does sound pretty interesting. Paul Ham also mentioned the attempts by the Allies to cover up the devastating injuries inflicted on civilians and the ongoing medical issues suffered by residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Fallout: The Hiroshima Cover-up and the Reporter Who Revealed It to the World by Lesley M.M. Blume