Classics and the Western Canon discussion

We begin to approach the conclusion of another great book and thanks to our guest moderator, Roger, and all of you who are participating in it, another great discussion. It is time now to give some thought to our next read.

In no particular order, here are our nominees. You have a week to convince us why we should read your favorite before we post the poll next week.

Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen

Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion by David Hume

Decline and Fall by Evelyn Waugh

Praise of Folly by Erasmus

Wise Blood by Flannery O'Connor

The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde

Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë

Upcoming Schedule

Mar 3 - Mar 9	Demons Week 10	Next read member discussion
Mar 10 - Mar 16	Demons Week 11	Next read Poll
Mar 17 - Mar 23	Demons Week 12
Mar 24 - Mar 30	Interim Read 1
Mar 31 - Apr 6	Interim Read 2
Apr 7 - Apr 13	Begin Second Read of 2021 Discussion

There's some time since I read Wuthering Heights. So much time that I don't remember its story, so I would love to read it.

I LOVED _Wuthering Heights_.

I would love to do a reread of it. I'm making my way through the Bronte sister novels I haven't read.

I think I would take a pass on Austen or Bronte. Austen because I’ve read it/seen it enough, Bronte just because my tastes don’t run toward romance. Erasmus and Hume are both in my current Enlightenment theme and I’ve yet to read Waugh, so I’d be fine with any of those.

I’ve never read prose by Wilde, but I know he’s an excellent writer, so I’d be happy examining him a bit. My first choice would be O’Connor, though, since it’s long been on my tbr and I enjoy her Southern Gothic style.

After wrestling with Dostoevsky's Demons we might need something like "Decline and Fall" to cheer us up. I haven't read anything from Evelyn Waugh yet, but some people are comparing him to Wodehouse.

My second choice would be Wuthering Heights.

I read 'The Portrait' when I was around 14 and I was really impressed. It would be interesting to read it again after 20 years and see how I will perceive it now.

I might change my mind though, most nominees are terrific - the only thing I'm sure of is that I don't want to try again to read Pride and Prejudice.

I've never read Waugh. Reread Dorian Grey last year and so enjoyed Oscar WIlde's wit. That might be a nice contrast to Demons. And I've been doing a deep dive into O'Connor. And again, I've been wanting to reread Wuthering Heights which I haven't read for 30 years.

None of these seem very interesting to me right now. I have copies of O'Connor and Waugh, so I'd probably join in if those won.

Of course, I've got to catch up on Demon first--I'm about six weeks behind. I don't think I do very well on these long schedules--I read the week's reading the day the discussion is supposed to start, and then I don't pick the book back up until the next week. I have a hard time making myself split it up into a daily reading for some reason. I do plan on finishing Demons, but it'll probably be all at one go.

I think the only ones I haven't read are Wise Blood and Decline and Fall. Even though the end of the pandemic is in sight, where I live we're still in near-complete lockdown and we have a 9pm curfew. So since Waugh has a better sense of humour than O'Conner, he gets my vote.

Like Nabokov, but for different reasons, I am no great fan of Jane Austen. Nevertheless, I am going to lobby over the next several days with some clips from others as to why classics readers, like those in this community, ought to have her novels on their read and read again lists at least as much as they do Homer's Iliad or other favorites (or Dostoevsky? Name yours!).

"Fear not, for here is a partial list of famous men (and very manly men, I might say) who are Austen lovers and not ashamed of being so:

"Authors T.C. Boyle (Talk Talk, and a hilarious short story called I Dated Jane Austen), Michael Chabon (The Yiddish Policemen's Union), Paul Auster (The New York Trilogy), Ken Follet (Eye of the Needle) Kazuo Ishiguro (The Remains of the Day), and Irvine Welsh (Trainspotting); director Danny Boyle (Trainspotting); and Dwyane Wade of the Miami Heat.

"Here's what Dwyane Wade had to say about Pride and Prejudice:

“It's one of my favorite books, which usually surprises people. I guess they wonder how a love story from Regency England could be relevant to a 21st century basketball player from the Southside of Chicago. Class struggle, overcoming stereotypes and humble beginnings, getting out of your own way and letting love take over: these are things I can relate to, definitely.”

Dwade

"And here's what Phil Hilton, ex-editor of UK men's magazine Nuts, said about Austen to BBC News:

"[Austen] is fun, dry, ironic - as funny as any male writer out there," he says.

"She is about more than romance, that's just the engine that drives the plot along. Unfortunately when adapted for film and TV the good stuff often ends up on the cutting room floor in favour of a handsome actor walking out of a lake."

https://blog.janeaustenaddict.com/200...

Nothing on the list is tempting, and everything is good. I am not sure about rereading Wilde and Ostin, though I admire both novels.

Since I am late in getting started on my self chosen decision to campaign for choosing Austen this time around by this group, I'll add a second post of "clippings" from a couple of sources this morning:

"... It is also interesting to read the contemporary and other early reviews of Austen, mostly by men (Scott’s anonymous review of Emma is a fine example), who focus more on her literary talents rather than the social times they were all living in, which tend to draw the 21st century reader in .....

"My husband was force-fed P&P years ago in high school, but asked me last year to suggest an Austen read for him – I chose Persuasion, due to it length, more serious storyline, and the Navy bits. He read it willingly, but with a fair amount of groaning, and ended with saying that Austen could have told the tale in a QUARTER of the words! – alas! therein lies the problem with Austen – if you “get into” the language and Austen’s glorious world of words and wit, she works, otherwise one is lost.

Janeite Deb at https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.co... (Emphasis mine. I perceive it is her use of language in observing humans that makes J.A. interesting and among the greats.)

Some might be interested in noting Cornel West's comparison of her thought to the great Russian writers here, along with the comments of Colin Toibin and Siri Hustvedt, and other authors enthusiastic about the values of reading Austen -- some viewing her manuscripts, probably at a display in Morgan Library: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0ZJ0...

We all have our own tastes, but Jane Austen has all the wit and slicing social commentary of Oscar Wilde. And is great fun to read. I'm currently reading Mansfield Park, the only one of her novels I had not yet read. It has a bit of a different feel, a little darker. One small thread in it is England's involvement in the slave trade. Having not read Jane Austen in decades, I'm involved in a Goodreads group reading all of her books in chronological order of when they were written. It's been great fun.

Lily wrote: "Like Nabokov, but for different reasons, I am no great fan of Jane Austen. Nevertheless, I am going to lobby over the next several days with some clips from others as to why classics readers, like ..."

I never let anyone but myself decide what I read/watch and female writers are among my favorites. I agree that Austen is worth reading and while I've only read the novel twice, I've enjoyed and teared up at the Kiera Knightley movie version of Pride & Prejudice at least 10 times.

Incidentally, I don't disagree with the arguments in favor of the literary and cultural value of reading Austen. I just can't do it myself these days. The aesthetic style resulting from the standards of femininity that female writers of the period (at least ones not using male pseudonyms) used just feels false and I'm seeing enough of that in real life.

If the group wants to go with a lighter selection following the very serious and dark Demons, I would favor Decline and Fall.

Aiden wrote: "The aesthetic style resulting from the standards of femininity that female writers of the period (at least ones not using male pseudonyms) used just feels false and I'm seeing enough of that in real life...."

Love to hear you elaborate on what you mean, Aiden. (Part of what I have observed on this board is suspicion some of that "falseness" your students could benefit from exploring under your intense guidance!? Possibly in contrast to the "realness" of Dostoevsky." Also, if curious, note the comments of a male reader at the link below. ) Personally, I laughed at Phil Hinton's line about the movies: "the good stuff often ends up on the cutting room floor in favour of a handsome actor walking out of a lake." I perceive D & A both are "real" and "serious," albeit in very different ways. But Tennyson and Hustvedt and Tóibín and West make those arguments far better than I ever could on the little video. And equally applicable is probably this tidbit from Mark Twain lore:

"Mark Twain was quite vocal in disliking her work, even though he was drawn to read her books over and over. His famous quote,”Every time I read ‘Pride and Prejudice’ I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone,” hangs in the Mark Twain House." https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.co...

PS. "I never let anyone but myself decide what I read/watch..." But, Aiden, you are pretty good at convincing others to read alongside you, imho! As usual, D's been a powerful choice for WC. In fact, the choice of Dostoevsky here and Bigollo's comments convinced me to order Notes from the Underground , which awaits daily rotation in the same stack as the demands of two not-Goodreads groups. Now will I chose the first store--other than a pharmacy--that I enter after a year's quarantine to be the Labyrinth in Princeton to indulge in Frank's Lectures on Dostoevsky or will I be "practical" and order The Code Breaker: and figure out how to indulge in what Isaacson calls the next major moral debate awaiting human use of technology.

Lily wrote: Since I am late in getting started on my self chosen decision to campaign for choosing Austen this time around by this group...

If Jane Austen had been just another producer of penny dreadfuls few today would know of her or care. Austen writes within the artistic era of Romanticism, which was a reaction to the rationalism of the Enlightenment. Looking at the romance aspect of her work may open the door, but to remain there is to miss the point. She was a keen observer of people and their environment. With her wit she not only draws out the absurdities, she skewers the overt emotionalism of her time.

”Every time I read ‘Pride and Prejudice’ I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shin-bone,” hangs in the Mark Twain House."

LOL!!!
Mark Twain was another keen observer of people with the gift of wit and humor.

I think Jane Austen has no chance, only because most members of THIS group probably feel they have "done" Austen.

She is one of the greatest writers of all time, and oddly enough, one of the most popular at the present time (maybe because of Colin Firth diving in a lake), but that combination spells doom here, doesn't it?

I would guess Hume's Dialogues is the dark horse. The only one
I haven't read is Wise Blood.

Praise of Folly is certifiably boring. #sorrynotsorry

Lily wrote: "But, Aiden, you are pretty good at convincing others to read alongside you, imho!"

It seems your pretty convincing yourself. I should note that I don't have students or any claim to literary authority, unless one considers my opinionated musings on here as educational. I've tended to favor realism over Romanticism in fiction as an adult after enjoying writers like Poe, Dumas and Austen in high school.

It still wouldn't be my first choice, but the idea of critically examining why I reject the aesthetics of Romanticism and whether it's fair criticism has sufficiently piqued my interests. I'll join in discussion if Austen or Bronte are chosen by the group.

(My own postscript: I'm planning to read Frank's award-winning biography of Dostoevsky in tandem with re-reading FMD's works in the next year or two. Those lectures sound interesting!)

Aiden wrote: "It seems your pretty convincing yourself. ...."

[g] I'll accept the compliment! Whether or not P&P gets the nod. (And I hope it does.) Now, if Christopher, whom I wonder if he might even be convinced to moderate an Austen himself someday, reconsiders.....

(Aiden -- please do post your reviews of Frank's FMD biography. I'd even love a heads up when you do. I haven't checked if there is a single volume edition. What a way to spend much of one's career! (But I like R. F. Christian on Tolstoy, for whom much of the best analysis is apparently still in Russian.) )

I did participate in a year long read of Jane Austen. It started on Amazon and migrated here.

Unfortunately, my participation, if it were a critical condition chart, I would be "brain dead," but there's always hope.

My personal preference is for Dorian Gray.

Christopher wrote: "Unfortunately, my participation, if it were a critical condition chart, I would be "brain dead."

I think the post reproduced below says otherwise, or at least it would indicate any modesty in ones musings on Jane Austen would be more than adequately compensated for by enthusiasm.

Mansfield Park is the greatest novel of the greatest novelist. And JA's only mention of America.

The poll for our second read of 2021 has been posted.
Voting starts on: Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 12:00AM PST

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

Voting will end on march 17, 2021 11:59 PM PDT*

*Remember we are going to lose an hour of voting time because most places in the US are going to spring forward into Daylight Savings Time this Sunday, March 14th at 2:00 AM

Voting is something
we do every day.
It's a way we can choose
That gives us our own say.
One Vote, Two Votes, I Vote, You Vote by Katherine Ross

Remember to have your own say.
The pole is close and ends on this day: Mar 17, 2021 11:59PM PDT

Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen will be our next read. The book discussion is scheduled to begin on April 7th. after Demons and two weeks of Interim reads.

Please stay tuned for a special announcement.

Here are the raw and weighted results:

R	W	W%	
6	14	32%	Pride and Prejudice
5	10	23%	Wise Blood
5	10	23%	Decline and Fall
4	7	16%	Wuthering Heights
2	2	5%	Praise of Folly
1	1	2%	Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion

If you would like to see some of the runners up included in the poll, let us know here so the moderators may gauge the amount of interest in them.

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

I am delighted that a woman-authored novel has won the poll. The choice is particularly serendipitous since this is Women’s History Month. I am even more delighted to welcome Kerstin as our guest moderator for Pride and Prejudice.

Kerstin has been an active member of this group since 2016 and has consistently contributed to discussions with her comments and observations. As you may have noticed from some of her posts, she is a big fan of Jane Austen. Her enthusiasm is sure to be contagious, and I have no doubt she will do a wonderful job moderating the discussion. I hope all of you will consider participating even if you didn’t vote for the novel.

Our sincere thanks go to Kerstin. We wish her every success and look forward to the discussion.

Please join me in welcoming Kerstin as our guest moderator.

Thank you Kerstin! I'm doing a chronological read of all of Austen's work with another group. Just finished Mansfield. Look forward to reading P &P a third time here, and maybe diving into some secondary materials.

Cphe wrote: "Read all of Jane Austen several years ago on the old amazon book forum (prior to the great migration)..... Austen was a wonderful reading experience.

Have read P&P a few times in my reading life s..."

Do consider dropping in on the conversation and sharing an insight or two of yours with Kersten and the rest of us, Cphe? Otherwise, enjoy your sabbatical from Western Canon ....

Hmmm, it's tempting to join you all for this and see if Austen opens up a bit for me. I first read Pride and Prejudice in my early 20s, entirely on the NYC subway riding back and forth to graduate school at NYU (after having finished Moby Dick the same way). I really enjoyed it then, but as others have mentioned, Austen has been so overtaken by popular culture that I'm no longer sure of what I read and what I saw in movies! I will sneak in if I can (as I am wont to do once a year or so), but I am currently 600 pages in to a shared read of Infinite Jest with my husband and 2 friends, and damn, we have got to finish that book! (If curious, we're vlogging as we go at my YouTube channel) Hope to see you all in April!

Kathy wrote: "Hmmm, it's tempting to join you all for this and see if Austen opens up a bit for me. I first read Pride and Prejudice in my early 20s, entirely on the NYC subway riding back and forth to graduate ..."

Hope you can join us, Kathy.
Like you, it's been years since I last read Pride and Prejudice. I'm excited to see how a re-reading and discussion opens up the novel for me.

Looking forward to join in the (re) reading of Pride and Prejudice

How long we take for it 1 month or 2? What is meant with interim readings?

Wim wrote: "Looking forward to join in the (re) reading of Pride and Prejudice

How long we take for it 1 month or 2? What is meant with interim readings?"

I'll post the detailed schedule in a couple of days, but we're looking at six weeks. It reads pretty fast.

The interim reads serve as a transition between major reads. It is a 2-week window to finish up a book and also to get the next book. The moderators choose a shorter work to be read. I really like this feature. It gives everyone a chance to read lesser known pieces normally not part of regular group reads.

Tamara wrote: "Hope you can join us, Kathy.
Like you, it's been years since I last read Pride and Prejudice. I'm excited to see how a re-reading and discussion opens up the novel for me."

I'll join Tamara and hope you can participate, Kathy!

Prepping for the read, I must say there are so many details I wasn't fully aware of. No movie or TV production can capture all the intertwining details that round out a well-crafted story.

Wim wrote: "Looking forward to join in the (re) reading of Pride and Prejudice

How long we take for it 1 month or 2? What is meant with interim readings?"

Kerstin has graciously agreed to be our guest moderator for Pride and Prejudice. We'll begin the discussion on April 7. I'm glad you can join us.

I am looking forward to the discussion. As this was the february read for another group though, I won't read it again.