The Sword and Laser discussion

I didn't pick it but I feel the need to defend it if we are going to discuss it properly! Too many people are counting themselves out because they don't like YA, which this book is not.

If you will allow me.

Kirkus reviews the book as General Contemporary Fantasy. That's an adult category and they are the People Who Know. In my head, its whimsical cover fits in with Douglas Adams - Terry Pratchett -Gail Carriger - some Neil Gaiman - contemporary fantasy that is not all dark but is about adults, often the only line between YA and adult.

The American Library Association gave it an Alex Award in 2021. "The Alex Awards are given to ten books written for adults that have special appeal to young adults, ages 12 through 18." So it might also appeal to teens. But it is not YA.

I think it's the percieved style rather than it's literally YA as in featuring young adults as protagonists. It certainly has that feel from the description, at least to me. And, well, the Alex Award kind of supports that.

I'm on the fence (it's not available at the library for months and it's not on sale) so I did what I usually do when on the fence about a book and read some 2 star reviews (1 stars are often overly simplistic, 2 stars often give more reasons for not liking a book and I can see if those reasons are things that bother me).

This review (https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...) definitely made it sound, if not YA, at least YA adjacent in style:

While there was a bundle of good messages at its core (don't be ashamed of who you are, don't judge others by outward appearance, change can happen) the story itself struck me as aggressively shallow. What I mean by this was that for all the neat or quirky ideas in the book there was little to no exploration of them.

Trying to remember here (it's been a few months), but isn't the POV adult?

I feel judged by the main character’s next door neighbor 😂

I assume the main character at the beginning continues to be the main POV I’m only 40ish pages in.

terpkristin wrote: "I feel judged by the main character’s next door neighbor 😂."

Well, that neighbor is a piece of work.

Yeah, the protag is an adult, but he learns lessons from the kids. That’s not a YA thing, that’s a life thing.

“Out of the mouths of babes” and all that.

Rick wrote: "I think it's the percieved style rather than it's literally YA as in featuring young adults as protagonists. It certainly has that feel from the description, at least to me. And, well, the Alex Awa..."

I think YA adjacent is an accurate depiction. I can see both arguments either way, but for my own personal log, I marked it as YA

YA adjacent could work, I think, but really it's more about an adult who has to interact with kids. But yes, a bit whimsical. Unfortunately the cover screams YA

It felt a bit like a YA novel to me even though the main character was an adult. I found myself wondering what the lower end of the age scale this would be appropriate for. That's not to say I didn't appreciate it as a 50+ year old just that it seemed to be appropriate for a wide age group.

Is it a case of people just judging happiness to be an emotion with less depth than despair? Or a book that seems to point to a happy ending as less valid than one that is dark or ambiguous? There's plenty of YA that is soaked in violence, sex, social struggle, oppression and all that stuff that this is no longer a reasonable measuring-stick for figuring out what is YA and what isn't. A book that is dark isn't obviously for adults and the opposite isn't true either. I think even a teen would resist the idea that this book is suitable for them just because it's positive and no one gets beheaded.

To be honest, having just finished, this one strikes me as more adult than many an adult book starring a twenty-something protagonists. It's about how easy it is to lose a decade to things being good-enough or safe-enough. Or giving your effort to an organization that is bigger than yourself only to be subsumed in it, and then to realize it isn't what you thought it was. Or how accepting responsibility also means wearing the ties that come with it, and how tough it can be to willingly choose to wear new bindings even when you know it's the right thing to do.

Some YA books touch on insecurities like this because all teenagers worry about using up their lives being boring, but most of those YA books end up making my eyes roll because those kids are worried about inertia that has lasted a month or two and then think they've reached the end of their journey at 22.

Seth wrote: "Is it a case of people just judging happiness to be an emotion with less depth than despair?'..."

Not for me (though I'm judging it via the reviews, so....). The review I linked above asserts "While there was a bundle of good messages at its core (don't be ashamed of who you are, don't judge others by outward appearance, change can happen)...." and those messages sound YA-ish to me.

That is, they sound like basic life lessons that people (should) learn as they leave childhood and become adults. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them of course. Not one thing. But they do seem... simplistic? Probably the wrong word. They seem like coming of age messages though.

I'd be interested in knowing if the people who've read it think the review above has valid points or not.

Rick wrote: "Seth wrote: "Is it a case of people just judging happiness to be an emotion with less depth than despair?'..."

Not for me (though I'm judging it via the reviews, so....). The review I linked above..."

Some people don’t learn the lesson in a timely manner, or don’t realize they’re stuck in a holding pattern. How many millions of people quit smoking or go on a diet, only to relapse and start over? I always say “everything is simple but nothing is easy”, and breaking out of one’s established patterns of behavior is exactly that. Quit smoking. Eat healthy. Simple. But still millions struggle with it.

The review you linked above misses the point of the book. It’s not about the world, it’s about this one guy’s life. He accepts the things he’s told without questioning them. That’s the pattern he’s trapped in. Just like millions of people are trapped in their patterns of behavior.

I’m reminded of the movie Night Shift where Henry Winkler’s milquetoast character thanks Michael Keaton’s character for helping him break out of his shell, to break his pattern of being a pushover. Winkler stands up to the neighbor’s dog who is terrorizing him and demands that his sandwich be made correctly. “Without you I wouldn’t have been able to do all this.” Keaton is puzzled: “Done all what?” For the average person, these accomplishments are insignificant, but for him they’re huge. Same with the character in this book.

I’m honestly baffled that you’re wasting so much time and energy deriding a book you clearly have no desire to read. If you’d spent half of that effort on reading the book you could’ve been done by now and come to your own conclusions about it. Why are you bothering to argue about this? I don’t understand such pointless behavior.

I know the point of this thread is not to discuss what makes a book YA, but I don't think the conversation can be had without bringing that issue up. I personally feel that YA is practically meaningless beyond being a marketing tool. What makes a book YA? A young protagonist? Well, that doesn't work as our protagonist is in his 40s. Simplistic writing? Well then why is something like Deeplight considered YA? Light topics? May I point you to The Hunger Games?

Even taking into account my personal feelings on YA being a relatively useless moniker, I don't see this particular book as being YA, or even YA adjacent for a few reasons. The protagonist is in his 40s and the themes, while lighter, are still very much about what it's like to be an adult.

What annoys me though is that instead of making valid critiques of the book, a shorthand of "this book is too YA for me" is being used. It's a lazy critique. What do you mean by 'too YA'? What makes it YA? Do you not enjoy the writing style? That should be your critique. Do you find the issues in the book too easily resolved or too light for your enjoyment? That's your critique. etc, etc. Saying that a book is "YA" and therefore not for you, really does mean nothing.

Would this book be enjoyed by teens? Yes, absolutely. But so are any number of 'Adult' books. And I return to the argument that despite being a very light book, the main theme is finding yourself when you are older and set in your ways. The book wouldn't work quite the same way if Linus were in his teens or early 20s. The fact that he's a 40 year old man, who is stuck in a rut, resonated deeply with me.

Trike wrote: "I’m honestly baffled that you’re wasting so much time and energy deriding a book you clearly have no desire to read. If you’d spent half of that effort on reading the book you could’ve been done by now and come to your own conclusions about it. Why are you bothering to argue about this? I don’t understand such pointless behavior.
..."

This bit says more about you than me.

Thinking that this sounds like YA is 'deriding'? Interesting. I asked people if they thought the review was valid. That's deriding?

I 'don't intend to read it'? I said I'm on the fence since I'd have to buy it and it's full price. So I thought I'd ask. These ARE discussion forums, you know. BTW, this hasn't taken much effort or time at all. I'm not sure why talking about things bothers you.

Anyway, I'm done with you. Welcome to the block list.

@Melani - Good points. I can only speak for me but YA to me mostly revolves around the kind of story told. Often of personal discovery, coming of age, etc. Sometimes (most of the time?) the protags are young (teens or just out of that age bracket).

Nothing I said, at least, equates YA with bad. I've read some that's quite good simply because the world is interesting, the characters have depth and the plot is well done. But I'm also not terribly interested in yet another coming of age or voyage of self-discovery story unless it has something else. Keep in mind that I've read books for 50 years, so I've read a LOT of that.

Frankly, those of you 'defending' the book as not YA mystify me. Saying "yeah this feels kind of like YA" is an observation, not a damnation. Such defense feels, well, unnecessarily defensive about YA.

Wow, this thread got heated.
Fwiw, I agree with Seth and Melani above - this is a book about being middle-aged and stuck in a rut, and so while the tone is light, the underlying themes are serious and definitely adult-oriented. There are several young characters but they are seen from the perspective of the caregivers.
Overall this strikes me as a book which can be read and enjoyed by teenagers and young adults, but will be much more resonant for those of us entering (or already in) middle age, looking at our careers and our relationships and wondering if it’s too late to make big changes.

I feel like this is a book for adults that really love children's literature. People of all ages could appreciate it if they enjoy that children's fantasy style with somewhat more adult jokes and themes woven in. If that appeals to you, you can enjoy this regardless of whether it gets shelved in YA or not.

The writing style and depth of the story is firmly, for me, YA. I've brushed off some of the things that would annoy me if this book was marketed as Adult Fiction by putting the book in my YA bucket.

I'm also absolutely enjoying it for what it is.

Read it or don't. I dismiss plenty of picks out of hand because it's not a style I enjoy.

I don't mean for this to be all "but back in my day..." in a negative way, but I hope when I said it, it puts it into context, but...

Back in my day, the library was divided into two halves: Children's and Adults. At age *12*, I was allowed to check out any (ANY) book on the adult side, no questions asked, no judgments. As a voracious reader who had already read the books that interested me on the children's side 3-4 times minimum, this was epic. This does not mean I necessarily understood everything I picked from the adult side, but it was still a whole new, exciting world.

I'm not very far into THitCS, and it was not what I wanted to be picked for April, but I'm enjoying it. A lot. It's an older adult (40s) POV whose structured, focused, and naive work ethic is exploited. I think this can be intimated from the book blurb, so it's not spoilery. It's also not YA, but it is a story that might be interesting to, say, a 12-year-old voracious reader. What it is, so far, is *wholesome*, which is refreshingly delightful.

I can also say that it gets me right in the feels every time when I think that "a gnome, a sprite, a wyvern, an unidentifiable green blob, a were-Pomeranian, and the Antichrist" (from the book blurb) are described as children, and by that extension, *people*. I'll talk more about them in other threads since that discovery of the children is more spoilery, but I like that this book is telling us out of the gate that *people* come in all shapes, sizes, appearances, experiences; and it's critical to take care before deciding that someone who doesn't look/act/speak/move/behave like us isn't a... *people.*

I find that thought as I discover this strange world that listens to really old music across the generations (clearly a fantasy) fascinating and keeps me on the edge emotionally nearly every reading moment.

Adding this as a separate reply, more to make fun of myself, but what I thought was most fantastical (thus far) was the reference to the musical eras (like, my parents' era, and I'm grandparent age), being enjoyed by 2-3 different generations.

Leesa wrote: "Adding this as a separate reply, more to make fun of myself, but what I thought was most fantastical (thus far) was the reference to the musical eras (like, my parents' era, and I'm grandparent age..."

I’ll buy into kids liking older music, but it’s tough for me to believe it going the other way as often.

Leesa wrote: "Back in my day, the library was divided into two halves: Children's and Adults. At age *12*, I was allowed to check out any (ANY) book on the adult side, no questions asked, no judgments. As a voracious reader who had already read the books that interested me on the children's side 3-4 times minimum, this was epic."

My library was the same (Only children's and adult's). I was well into adulthood before YA was a thing.

I never asked permission. I just started picking from the adult section while I was still in Primary school. I was smart enough to know which ones I would be allowed to have. 😉 I was mainly after the SciFi (Verne, Wells, Asimov etc)

Tassie Dave wrote: "I was mainly after the SciFi (Verne, Wells, Asimov etc)"

I can just picture the excitement on your face when you heard Mssr. Verne had just published a new book!




😂

Trike wrote: "I can just picture the excitement on your face when you heard Mssr. Verne had just published a new book!"

He has been a bit tardy since the last one. But that's the french for you. 😉

I started listening to the audiobook yesterday and I can see why some folks would think it is a young adult book based on how it is read. I read YA books pretty often so I don't mind if one of our picks is classified YA or not. Some of them are really well-written.

So far I'm really enjoying this month's pick. I can identify somewhat with Linus. I too am round and like to be at home. :D

A series of books that this sort of reminds me of are by Gervase Phinn. He is a school inspector in the Yorkshire Dales. No fantastical elements, but charming too.
Plenty of children in it and the odd things they say. Not much mention of spiders though. You'd also need to know some Yorkshire dialect there too.

Like this book it is an easy read. So while not necessarily aimed at children, could be read by younger (teenage) readers.

I think it gives me "YA feels" because child-child and many child-adult relationships are so easy. I find it hard to accept the idea of a a foster home with no internal conflict (although the bureaucracy felt spot-on.)

Nevertheless, I enjoyed both the touching message and the "golden romance" between Arthur and Linus. And I cried at the final button exchange (hopefully not a spoiler for those still reading).

Jessica wrote: "I think it gives me "YA feels" because child-child and many child-adult relationships are so easy. "

Hm...that description gives me "ideal database" feels. If only the many-many relationships could be that easy!

It's YA because the protagonists are 40 and 45 and they are a couple of kids to me, as I'm 50. They are raising young kids (well, except the gnome) I'm almost done with the kid raising thing. Now, get off my lawn, whipper snappers.

Richard wrote: "They are raising young kids (well, except the gnome)"

Talia is still a young kid. She's only 263 years old. She won't be an adult until she is 500.

This is true, TD. She still counts as a children.

Kinda like Grogu, who is 50.

Would people have given Gods of Jade and Shadowthe "it's YA" treatment if it had won? Sorry to be stuck on it, but it gives off way more YA vibes than HitCS for me, though it too is an adult book.

At least I could see the argument more clearly: it's a bildungsroman with a young protagonist, there's a powerful (and powerfully alluring) guy she's in danger of being infatuated with, there's the Cinderella and running away from home angles...

Still, it seems like it was viewed as the more serious choice - or maybe I'm not judging the atmosphere here correctly.

Seth wrote: "Would people have given Gods of Jade and Shadowthe "it's YA" treatment if it had won? Sorry to be stuck on it, but it gives off way more YA vibes than HitCS for me, though it too is..."

That absolutely would have happened, and I've heard the same lobbed at her other works like Mexican Gothic. Plus the covers! Are so vibrant!

I have to say, from my perspective as a parent, this does not feel like a YA novel to me at all. It's about raising kids and giving them a healthy and loving environment. And while it's true that some people become parents before they are adults, parenthood - biological and other - is an essentially an adult activity. This book is appropriate for kids, and it features kids, but it's a story about being a guardian, not about being a kid.

I loved the kids so much. I will miss them!