Reading the Classics discussion

If there's a Classic you would like to read (50+ years since publication) this summer, let's hear it! Asking for suggestions for the July read.

Is there a master list of books the group has read before Brian? Just curious so I don’t nominate something already read.

“Riddle of the Sands”
Erskine Childers

Changed history, not bad for a romantic novel about sailing around with a little espionage thrown in.

Or

“The Blazing World and Other Writings”
by Margaret Cavendish

First science fiction

Or

Robinson Crusoe Daniel Defoe

first modern novel?

Or

The Way We Live Now Anthony Trollope
A majestic assault on the corruption of late Victorian England.

Or

Nostromo Joseph Conrad
Conrad's masterpiece: a tale of money, love and revolutionary politics.

Or

Lanark Alasdair Gray

A list to consider, would hate for you and Jenn to have a short list!

Brandon wrote: "Is there a master list of books the group has read before Brian? Just curious so I don’t nominate something already read."

Not that I know of, Brandon. The group is more than a decade old, I believe, and there was a 4-5 year hiatus where it was entirely inactive, so I think we can ditch the pre-2020 history and go our own way, hopefully without repeating the readings over the past 10 months or so.

Feel free to nominate any qualifying book.

The Woman in White

I am participating in Jane Austen July. So I nominate Northanger Abbey, which satirizes Gothic novels and I will be reading.

Other summertime suggestions:

Adventures by Jules Verne, Robert Louis Stevenson, or H.G. Wells
Swashbucklers such as The Scarlet Pimpernel by Baronness Orczy
Sensation novels such as Lady Audley's Secret by M.E. Braddon
Comedy plays by Wycherley, Wilde, or Gilbert and Sullivan

Or L_Gail's suggestion of Riddle of the Sands by Erskine Childers

I agree that some of Robert Louis Stevenson’s books might be interesting. “The Bottle Imp” sounds like fun.

Some suggestions look too short (The Bottle Imp, for example), and others too long (The Woman in White, tho it's an excellent novel). Riddle of the Sands looks interesting given the historical context, buuuuuuut...

How about a summer adventure? Let's show people we can get outside the USA and see a bit of the rest of the world.

I'm leaning toward Robinson Crusoe. I've never read it, and it seems to have a reasonable word count. With Don Quixote running through the end of August, I think we should keep the main read manageable.

Any major objections?

I started Robinson Crusoe about a week ago.

I almost posted a comment a day or so ago that “Crusoe” makes a nice companion read to Don Quixote. It was written in 1719, in English of course,and is a more modern read than (i.e. easier read) than Don Quixote .

None the less, the story is set in about 1630, and Defoe, is telling of history and customs and manners of the 1600’s. There are themes that parallel those in Don Quixote.

I am about 1/2 way through it, enjoying it, and finding it interesting.

You mentioned Crusoe might be the first novel. It's not, but there's a caveat: it's in the running as first ENGLISH novel. The novel I see most often cited as the first modern novel? Quixote :)

Quixote is also written and set in the early 17th century, and Crusoe just a couple decades thereafter. They are both adventures

So let's do it. Crusoe it is, so long as there are no major credible objections :)

Ok, first “English” novel.

There are a lot of “first” modern English novels, I think.

Robinson Crusoe
Pamela
Tristam Shandy
A Tale of the Tub
Moll Flanders
Pilgrim’s Progress

And I guess others.

It's an ongoing debate. Here's some info on the other candidates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

I would love to read Crusoe for what it’s worth! :)

Brandon wrote: "I would love to read Crusoe for what it’s worth! :)"

Just the kind of reinforcement I was hoping for :)

That one stood out to me when Gail mentioned it in her original post!

L_Gail wrote: "Ok, first “English” novel.

There are a lot of “first” modern English novels, I think.

Robinson Crusoe
Pamela
Tristam Shandy
A Tale of the Tub
Moll Flanders
Pilgrim’s Progress

And I guess others."

Hey, can you share with me the ToC from the edition you're reading? It's come to my attention there is more than one edition of this thing and the ToCs are wildly different.

I was thinking about getting Penguin Edition. Will that be a problem?

I am listening to a free read at cloudLibrary.

My public library has membership in cloudLibrary as do many other libraries around the USA.

It is a Blackstone Audio unabridged recording.

https://www.blackstonewholesale.com/r...

However, even the Blackstone website does not state the published book from which they are reading. Perhaps as the book is in the public domain they don’t feel compelled to cite the published version. I’ve seen this before and find it annoying.

That said, for the group read I plan to read the text version. I find it easier to listen first as my eyes are getting older. That is how I am reading Don Quixote.

So, pick whichever version you like. Though there should be digital versions for not much $$$, which is probably a good idea. Most libraries will have it, but in who knows how many variations.

L_Gail wrote: "I am listening to a free read at cloudLibrary.

My public library has membership in cloudLibrary as do many other libraries around the USA.

It is a Blackstone Audio unabridged recording.

https://..."

Thank you!

Here's a free Project Gutenberg edition:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/521

... and yes, the book is available in free or cheap versions everywhere. Getting excited to finally read this one.

Brandon wrote: "I was thinking about getting Penguin Edition. Will that be a problem?"

Nope, that'll be good. I came across a modified edition which bizarrely had 30 chapters. The original has ~20. So check your ToC :)

I think the 20/chapters is the original book. I think the next 10 chapters are “the further adventures ….”

Some editions list the first 20 chapters as Volume I

I will check further. There are many options for reading this book.

Yes, I think that is correct. The last chapter (20) should be “Fight between Friday and a Bear.”

Nostromo by Conrad sounds good.

Brian wrote: "It's an ongoing debate. Here's some info on the other candidates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..."

Thanks for the link. I’ve read Aphra Behn’s 1688 Oroonoko, Daniel Defoe’s 1719 Robinson Crusoe, and Samuel Richardson’s 1740 Pamela. Although it is novella-length, Oroonoko is amazing for its antiracism and female authorship. On the other hand, Robinson Crusoe is colonialist, patriarchal, classist, and racist. I did not care much for it and will not be rereading it. Pamela is patriarchal, sexist, and classist while trying to teach women proper morals and feminine behavior under outrageous circumstances. Pamela was designated, by my professor, as the first novel in English because, beginning with this novel and continuing with his subsequent novels, Richardson created the genre of the novel. So, timing and popularity played a part.

Interesting summary Lori, I will have to read Oroonoko.

I read Pamala many years ago and agree with your synopsis. I would not volunteer to read it again.

I hear your characterization of Robinson Crusoe but my reactions are different.

This period from about 1500 to 1700 was the turning of western civilizations from feudalism, serfdom to the forces that led to wholesale conquest, ruthless fortune seeking and vast colonialism, particularly of the new world.

Reading both histories and popular works such as Crusoe or Don Quixote bring insight into the mindset that created that world. In deed,those forces are still at work in this world.

I found much to reflect on in reading Robinson Crusoe today that would have meant nothing to me 40 years ago.

Why do we read the Classics, if not to see into the minds of those who proceed us?

While I abhor the colonialism, I do read works both history and fiction that give insight into the past.

That said, we all have our tolerance level. As I mentioned. I would not read Pamela again. Once was more than enough. While I was once able to read Hemingway for his superb writing style, something about his books always bothered me. Today we know more of the man, and I will pass on Hemingway.

Of course we all decide what we find worthy and what we do not.

L_Gail wrote: "Interesting summary Lori, I will have to read Oroonoko.

I read Pamala many years ago and agree with your synopsis. I would not volunteer to read it again.

I hear your characterization of Robinson..."

I also would not choose to read Pamela again and hope I never have to read Clarissa. That being said, I am glad I read Pamela. One reason is that it showed me just how ridiculously high and scrupulously enforced were the oppressive standards of virtue and femininity in that era. Many of the Gothic or Horrid novels I am currently reading reflect Richardson's influence and tout these same standards and the erroneous concept that unquestioning obedience is a Godly duty. I hate the no-win scenario that women must sweetly submit to tyranny as to God while the tyrants are not held accountable for their dictates.

My main issue with Robinson Crusoe is that Crusoe's Enlightenment values are hypocritical and thus undermine the text's themes. Just like the Enlightenment values and texts of the American Founding Fathers underscore their hypocrisy, so does Defoe. I am glad I read the text, but I do not want to reread it.

Hemingway is a Modernist, and I rarely enjoy their writing style, disillusionment with life and the future, and anger with and rejection of God. Hemingway's selfish disregard towards others and objectification of women is hard to take. Yet, I plan to read The Old Man and the Sea, his Pulitzer-winning short story.

I read widely and research many difficult subjects. I love primary sources and I value perspective-taking. I have read many first-hand accounts of brutality, warfare, and even torture while studying history. My problem is not reading or understanding texts with worldviews and values different than mine; my problem is the pain and suffering I often feel when reading and thinking about them.

Thanks for your your thoughts Lorrie. I can understand your decision not to read Crusoe. I hope you will join the discussion!

I have not read Robinson Crusoe, and would be willing to. By the comments already I think it will be a provoking read.

I do find myself wanting to know more of the historical background for many of the books I read lately. Not too long ago I read 'The Song of Roland' and Washington Irving's 'Tales of the Alhambra'. I know very little about Spanish history, so ended up getting a book on Moorish Spain just to get some historical context to the stories. I'm glad I did and am enjoying the historical text more than I expected to.

When my kids were little we used to ask each other what kind of superpower we would eat want. I always responded that I would want to be able to read any book in it's original language with full understanding of historical context. It would be the closest way to getting into an author's head and understand what prompted his choice of words and topics.

Hypocritical Enlightenment values indeed! -- I remember that I had read Crusoe in an abridged version (without knowing it was abridged) long ago, and I couldn't agree more on the appalling hypocrisy of Enlightenment thinkers in general. Rousseau was right; slavery, colonialism and rights don't go hand in hand. The rich man's house is built on the graves of the poor; his freedom is means the subjugation of thousands others -- but that, conversely, makes me all the more curious to read such books. Re-reading, though is a different matter entirely.

I think Moll Flanders or Robinson Crusoe would be great !

While detailed thoughts on Crusoe I will hold for the appropriate chapters. I have to ask the question - - Were the activities of the Spanish conquistadors hypocritical ??

The conquistadors certainly prayed. While their actions were horrendous, self-serving to the Inth (spelling??) degree, vicious, on and on - - - can they really be said to have been hypocritical?

Doesn’t that require some self awareness? Or some insight into the mindset of the age?

We are all at the mercy of the selective histories that we are told and regional values to some degree.

Darshana wrote: "Hypocritical Enlightenment values indeed! -- I remember that I had read Crusoe in an abridged version (without knowing it was abridged) long ago, and I couldn't agree more on the appalling hypocris..."

Slavery, colonialism and trampled rights... the packaging has certainly changed, but I'm not sure much else has ;)

Tina wrote: "I have not read Robinson Crusoe, and would be willing to. By the comments already I think it will be a provoking read.

I do find myself wanting to know more of the historical background for many ..."

For me, part of the reason for studying history and reading books which reflect it is to know where we came from and to internalize the lessons of the past so as to better understand where we are now, and where we might be going. I wouldn't criticize anyone else's decision about what to read, not to read or why... but I don't feel like reading about something I disagree with is an endorsement of it. In many ways I prefer to read about people and places and practices I dislike and disagree with. I am by definition unfamiliar, and by allowing myself to become familiar, I feel like I better understand myself, the world and my place in it.

Enough introspection. For Tina: my superpower, if I could choose anything, would be the ability to ENTER a book and live it as any character I choose. I feel like that's what our imagination is attempting to do anyway, to immerse ourselves in stories, and I would love the ability to take that immersion to the ultimate level.

Superpowers !

I must admit I really loved Tina’s chosen super power.

I hope I can choose it too ; ). Alas, I think superpowers are one of a kind, only one super hero can get any one power. ( we are super readers - - now isn’t that super heroes !)

If I can’t be able to read all books in their original language, I think I might like “Super Memory” so I can always remember exactly where I read something including the edition and page number !!!

Linda

L_Gail wrote: "While detailed thoughts on Crusoe I will hold for the appropriate chapters. I have to ask the question - - Were the activities of the Spanish conquistadors hypocritical ??

The conquistadors certai..."

No, I suppose not. They must have genuinely believed that every religion except Christianity is beastly, or uncivilised, or wrong. And of course, colonies were seen as resources exclusively laid for them. Not every tyrant is a hypocrite (especially religious ones -- faith can make people genuinely believe in all sorts of nonsense) but there's something seriously wrong with people who preach for reason and liberty while enslaving others. It's almost funny.

Superpowers? I'm strangely blank at this one. Sure, it does sound good to have complete historical context but every writer has a bias, I doubt if objective truth even exists. Nay, for me, it's too much fun to read different versions of the "truth". Super memory sounds interesting, it certainly is pretty useful! As for living in a book as a character, that is fun and would be useful too -- I'd have gathered a lot of wisdom indeed if I experienced everything other characters experienced. But I'm too fond of my own tiny guarded sphere, book characters are too conflicted! To be able to read and comprehend books is what comes to my mind; so many books, so little time! But that would make me dull and unoriginal. Reading itself is a huge enough power; knowledge is the sharpest knife and rational thought is freedom from all forms of bondage. That, in my opinion, is a true power -- it is human but it rises above, "the soul is given wings" -- but I digress, so I'll stop.

Darshana wrote:
>rational thought is freedom from all forms of bondage. That, in my opinion, is a true power -- it is human but it rises above, "the soul is given wings"

Agreed, and I wish it were more prevalent!

I like Brian's superpower of actually becoming a character in a book. That would be really interesting! Which character would you likely become first?

Super memory would be cool, to be able to remember where I read something. Especially as I get older!

And Darshana, you are right that every author has a bias - that's why being able to read the original text (without the unintended biases of the translators by the choice of words they use) and understanding the state of the world at the time would really help better understand the author's POV. Even in Don Quixote there are phrases uttered, typically by Sancho or about Sancho, that I imagine are a lot funnier in the original text, but we just don't have the exact same phrase in English (my edition is 30-40 years old). I keep wondering what Cervantes actually said, though the translations are colorful enough they seem slightly off or too modern to be what was originally intended!

Back to the topic on hand (next book read idea), maybe next we try something not typically considered classic (which was usually European when I studied Lit in school) - maybe text from the Middle East, or Asia, or something along those lines, to really broaden the horizons?

That’s an interesting idea. The one recent book that impressed me most was

The Convert by Stefan Hertmans

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

An amazing book. I thought it should have one all the current book awards.

But I am not sure if breaking out of the group genre is the best idea.

Actually, there is a topic, “what are you reading”. Maybe it could be used to discuss a “non-classic”

I was thinking if keeping it classical (older works) but non-European. Along the lines of Journey to the West, written in the 16th century by Wu Cheng’en. Never heard of it before, but am doing a quick search on classic Chinese and classic Middle eastern/Arabic lit and it sounds interesting.

I vote for Daniel Defoe

Not sure where to put this, but I thought some members of this group might be interested. Tomorrow I plan to start reading The Female Quixote or, the Adventures of Arabella in Two Volumes 1752 by Charlotte Lennox (Scottish). This is a parody of Don Quixote and Jane Austen’s inspiration for Northanger Abbey.

Lorri wrote: "Not sure where to put this, but I thought some members of this group might be interested. Tomorrow I plan to start reading [book:The Female Quixote or, the Adventures of Arabella in Two Volumes|33

Quixote is a parody itself, so a parody of a parody is interesting!

Yes, parody on parody. Is "Northanger Abbey" a parody?? I thought it was an early novel Austin left unpublished. I've read it but I did not think it might be a parody. It did seem more than a bit over the top in terms of unlikely romance. I thought she did well not to publish it.

I think when we leave Don Quixote I will be ready for fresh air, and not the Knight's Errant kind.

I have all kind of thoughts about Don Quixote, and despite being in awe of some of it, I am afraid my imagination is now casting the stories as a series of Saturday morning "Looney Tunes". ( perhaps Saturday morning cartoons are a thing of the past )

(ASIDE _ HAD TO LOOK) -
Last Minute Book Report https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnmR8...
DOn Quixote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHgR0...
(END OF ASIDE)


Someone suggested we read more widely, ie, worldly class novels. Could have been you Lorri. My only hesitation is that that would again cast us into reading translations with all the short-comings of translations. Although I am not set against it.

Maybe it is time for a more modern Classic for the August or September read.

>Maybe it is time for a more modern Classic for the August or September read.

I'm going to leave this thread visible and active, because there are good ideas here. But I will also start a new thread for our September read. We are finishing with both Don Quixote and Robinson Crusoe at the end of August, so it's time to start thinking about a new monthly and doorstopper read.

I agree something more modern is probably a good idea, and also that we could stand to drift toward more worldly selections.

Linda_G wrote: "Yes, parody on parody. Is "Northanger Abbey" a parody?? I thought it was an early novel Austin left unpublished. I've read it but I did not think it might be a parody. It did seem more than a bit o..."

Northanger Abbey is not a parody but a work that includes satirization of the heroic, romantic, etc., and the ability to discern between the fiction in textual and conversational discourses and reality.

No, I did not suggest we read more world literature because this group seems to enjoy canonical texts, and world or cultural literature is problematic. As Linda pointed out, there are issues in reading translations and in the choice of translations. Also, cultural diversity in publishing is quite recent and creates issues about a text's designation as a *classic.* One exception is America's Harlem Renaissance of the 1920-30s.

Well, for the doorstopper, here is a book to consider. The books seems to defy classification, although I don't see anyone calling it a novel. But it is different from most recent reads. The author is British, so I am sure her ideas are molded by Western thought.

by
Rebecca West - aka Cicely Isabel Fairfield, known by her pen name Rebecca West, or Dame Rebecca West, DBE was an English author, journalist, literary critic, and travel writer. A prolific, protean author who wrote in many genres, West was committed to feminist and liberal principles and was one of the foremost public intellectuals of the twentieth century. She reviewed books for The Times, the New York Herald Tribune, the Sunday Telegraph, and the New Republic, and she was a correspondent for The Bookman. Her major works include Black Lamb and Grey Falcon (1941), on the history and culture of Yugoslavia; A Train of Powder (1955), her coverage of the Nuremberg trials, published originally in The New Yorker; The Meaning of Treason, later The New Meaning of Treason, a study of World War II and Communist traitors; The Return of the Soldier, a modernist World War I novel; and the "Aubrey trilogy" of autobiographical novels, The Fountain Overflows, This Real Night, and Cousin Rosamund. Time called her "indisputably the world's number one woman writer" in 1947. She was made CBE in 1949, and DBE in 1959, in recognition of her outstanding contributions to British letters. (less)

Paperback, 1181 pages
first published 1941