Psycho Proustians discussion

Well, here's to my first post in whatever we are going to call our Proust group. I'd like to make a few observations regarding our general aims as well as translations that we're going to use.

Translation first:
I hope you agree, Stephen, that any translation is welcome. I have the original translation by Scott Moncrieff, but I also have the original French version as well as a translation by Lydia Davis. Well, I must be honest, but I by far prefer the Davis version, and for a few reasons.

My French is not really good enough to read the original text without crutches. But I started off the French version (just the first page so far) with the help of a digital translator, and found the text, from something that had been stilted and slow in the Moncrieff version, magically come alive as a lyrical flow of poetry, imagery and bits of philosophizing.

I then had a go at the Davis version, and found it to be as similar to the French as one could possibly have translated it without destroying the English language.

So I will definitely be reading a combination of the French and the Davis translation. No looking back. :)

Another thing we spoke about, is what we'll be looking for in this novel. In this regard, I think each person should bring their own impressions and viewpoints.
Agreed in that we'll be doing a close reading as opposed to a historical reading. We won't be doing background on when and where Proust was born, and so on, but since the book is semi-autobiographical, I feel we shouldn't try and exclude extra-textual observations in a forced manner.

I personally like to look at the text as a whole - not only the characters, but also the actual writing, how it feels and what it does. It would be nice to have a sounding-board in this regard. In other words, it would be nice to bounce ideas and impressions off the other person/people.

By all means, go with the Davis. It might even be interesting to read different translators, especially in the case of wishing to highlight a particular passage: we might even find missing subtleties between the two English versions.

For my part, I have a taste for classical, mandarin, knotty old English prose, and like reading Proust that way for the added bonus. But you're making me feel guilty for mentioning the original French, because I swore the next time I read Proust it would be in the French. But it looks like that day is long in coming, because learning Japanese has knocked the stuffing out of me. Someday, though, someday - I would like to feel that lyricism intimately in the same way that I can now feel it with Tanizaki's prose in the original.

I tried Davis's some years back and found hers dull and aggravating - a similar feeling to when I read Pevear and Volokhonsky versions of the Russian writers. That's strictly personal taste considerations though, since I'm not comparing the translations to the originals - just what the English feels like to me cumulatively over time.

By the way, if you find a passage in French extraordinarily beautiful or insightful that you wish to share, by all means, share it: it would be good practice for me to experience the French while we read together.

Stephen wrote: "because learning Japanese has knocked the stuffing out of me..."

Ha, I know what you mean. The only reason I haven't sent French packing, is that I don't want to have wasted the time I already spent on it, and I've always wanted to learn it.

My father's father's family is half-German and half Dutch, so I have a bit of an advantage with those languages, having been in contact with those two languages from an early age. I find German the easiest to pronounce. But I don't like German and Germans as much (Germans can be rather dour people), so I don't work at it. French has always sounded so beautiful to me, but heaven knows, I struggle to make it out when they speak fast, and I'm completely tongue-tied in it.

I understand Japanophilia. I guess I can't speak for you personally, but... I've been fascinated with everything Chinese and Japanese since I was a small child. My father had, among other things, brought back from China some oriental scenes cut out in cork, as well as a screen in black with colored and mother-of-pearl insets to make out scenes from Chinese life. Magical!

Plus, Japanese fiction! Plus, Chinese poetry! The plethora of oriental shows on Netflix (Chinese, Korean and Japanese), have only served to increase my fascination, and I'm a complete Korean TV-show (though not so much K-pop as in the music) nut.

But, pictographic writing as in Chinese- hard! I've played around a bit with Japanese hiragana and found them fun, but I didn't learn all of them. It does seem like a lot of work to learn katakana as well as hiragana.
....and those accents that give different meanings to words make my woes with French pale in comparison!

So, RESPECT!

Anyway, back to Proust... I suggest we make a folder for each volume, and then maybe make a new thread every week. We can play it by ear. I'm used to groups that have many members, so those threads became quite voluminous.

I'm glad we each stated our reasons for liking a specific translation. It's nice when there's variety to a discussion and two people can enrich one another's views instead of just being cookie cutter copies or yes-men/women.

Nice, Psycho Proustians it is! I really like what you've done with the group page, the way you've set it up. The folder for each volume, that sounds good to me.

When you have the time over the next few days, let me know your opinion about invites. I already feel this is going to be a hugely rewarding reading experience.

"French has always sounded so beautiful to me." And to me, too. As much as I love Japanese for its reflection of the Japanese people, French remains the most beautiful language to me. It's not just cultural aspiration but undoubtedly a large reflection of my background. My mother, while raised in Egypt, spoke French, English, and Arabic. While she raised us, she spoke to us in French, sang French lullabies, and the like. One day she noticed my brother and I playing on the street, and, incapable of distinguishing one language from the next, were speaking French incomprehensibly to the neighbors. Who said, "Huh!? What are you saying!?" When she saw this happening to her two global-less little boys, she stopped the French instruction immediately. It's funny, but I only learned this in my late thirties. "Aha," I thought, "no wonder I have such a strong connection to the language and culture."

Because of this background, I almost feel like my connection to French culture is intuitive. And, lame excuse, I know, because of this I don't feel the pressing need to learn the language like I do Japanese. Maybe that formative experience put the culture in my blood?

Hey, I'm thrilled to hear you are a Korean drama fan! Maybe this is not the place for it, but I would love to hear your recommendations. I'm a fanatic about Japanese drama, and have even contemplated starting a blog on it as a place to bring learners of Japanese together into a community. I feel my neglect of Korean and Chinese television drama is a HUGE blind spot in my reading. We should *definitely* talk about Korean drama sometime in the future!

Your father sounds very interesting...

Hey Disha! Very nice to see you here! Welcome! It's crazy, I know... but what better time than the present to just jump in?

EDIT: Welcome, everyone else as well! I see we have more brave hearts here on GR than I'd expected! :D

This looks good. Thanks for the invite. I've been meaning to read this for many years, but always seem to get lost in other things.

Stephen wrote: "By all means, go with the Davis. It might even be interesting to read different translators, especially in the case of wishing to highlight a particular passage: we might even find missing subtleti..."

Stephen, I had the same experience of Pevear and Volokhonsky versions of Tolstoy. They are better with Dostoyevsky, I think. As you said, personal taste. And I love the Scott Moncrieff Proust translation. Like Traveller, my French would not stand up to reading the original.

Traveller wrote: "Stephen wrote: "because learning Japanese has knocked the stuffing out of me..."

Ha, I know what you mean. The only reason I haven't sent French packing, is that I don't want to have wasted the ti..."

Traveller, have you watched Hotel Del Luna on Netflix? :)

Cordelia wrote: "This looks good. Thanks for the invite. I've been meaning to read this for many years, but always seem to get lost in other things."

Hi Cordelia, then it's very good that you joined! I was a bit nervous that nobody would join at such short notice, but, if you think about it, one can get the Moncrieff translation free on the internet, (like on Gutenburg for example) and many people in my friend group already have copies of Proust including background reading, in any case.

Like you, I've been meaning to do it for years, and have had several false starts, but now is the time...

T.D. wrote: "Traveller, have you watched Hotel Del Luna on Netflix? :) ..."

Hi, T.D. yes, I have watched quite a few episodes - it's an intriguing concept, isn't it?

But my main K-food has been historical dramas - among those, Empress Ki is a favorite, as well as Mr Sunshine, which was rather unique in that it dealt with a very recent period of Korean history, namely the late 1800's to the early 1900's, and deals with the looming threat of invasion by Japan, and the Korean freedom fighters who formed a Resistance against it.

Unfortunately, the annexation of Korea by Japan still took place, and Japan tried pretty hard to snuff out Korean culture (even strong-arming them into adopting Japanese names). Japan apologists argued that the annexation improved Korea regarding technology and the economy, which is probably quite true. Still, it was not a pleasant experience for most Koreans, who hold their unique identity dear.

In any case, I also watched a great many K-dramas dealing with the Joseon era, (Six Flying Dragons was a fave, since it sketches some of the political background quite well) as well as one or two set in the modern era. And now I'd better stop before I get too carried away re K-dramas on a Proust group. :P

Traveller, I will look up the Korean shows you mentioned. After reading Pachinko a couple of years ago, I became interested in their people and culture and stumbled upon some of the series on Netflix.

Sorry, I will try to stay on topic!

T.D. wrote: "Sorry, I will try to stay on topic!"

Nah, all groups have a "general chat" thread. I'll amend the name of this thread to make it our general chat thread. So we can talk about anything here, including K-dramas!

Not sure I can find a copy in time but I would love to lurk :)

Saski wrote: "Not sure I can find a copy in time but I would love to lurk :)"

So good to see you in one of our groups again, Saski!

For easy reference, I will put some links of copies that are in the common domain, in the "background materials" thread.

Thanks for the invite, Traveller & Stephen. I may read again now to learn from you all. I read only the first two books, several years ago, loved them. Also read the first two graphic novelization versions a year or so ago, kind of a cool project, a neat intro to the real thing.

I found this: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7178/...
Not the translation you recommended but still, it's free :D

Reid wrote: "Thanks for the invite, Traveller & Stephen. I may read again now to learn from you all. I read only the first two books, several years ago, loved them. Also read the first two graphic novelization ..."

It sounds like we can learn from you too, Reid, so please give us your input as we go along, and thanks for joining. :)

@Saski: Thanks for the link, Saski, yes that looks like the Moncrieff t/lation that I linked to in the "materials" thread.

Since not all might be inclined to look there, I'll copy and paste the links here as well:

Ok, here is a link to an online version (Moncrieff t/lation) of Swann's Way : https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7178/...

Here is a link to a free download of the Moncrieff in a file format of your choice:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7178

Here is a link to a free download of the original French version:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2650

Here is a link to an online version of the French:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2650/...

Okay, I've hit GOLD: I found this - it's the Kilmartin reworking of the Moncrieff version. I read it a bit and I see why Stephen likes it: It's a MUCH nicer version than the original Moncrieff, and at least as good if not better than the Davis.

So please, if you can, download this version while it's still available:
https://uberty.org/wp-content/uploads...

Welcome Cordelia, Saski & Reid. I look forward to your contributions!

Wow, a Proust group! Thanks for the invite. And what good timing you have! I just bought the first four volumes of the new translation and they've been sitting by my couch for a month or so now. Nothing like a group to motivate :-)

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Wow, a Proust group! Thanks for the invite. And what good timing you have! I just bought the first four volumes of the new translation and they've been sitting by my couch for a month or so now. No..."

It's fate, Other Amy, it's fate! You were meant to be reading with us, that's for sure. Great to see you and looking forward to your participation. I'm so glad you're armed with new translations!

And yes, the whole motivation thing is why I let a certain Mr Stephen totally twist my arm into committing to such a scary thing! Besides that he's also good reading company. ;)

thanks for the invite. the book translation I've already read was in the portuguese language.. a wonderful edition in hardcover, in seven volumes. Here's the beginner's series: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Translation by Pedro Tamen

Hi Luis, thanks for the link and the recommendation!

Also, welcome to all who speak different languages, you are all welcome to post recommendations of translations of Proust into your own language.

Ok, people, time to start thinking of setting some kind of schedule. Those of you who have done groups with me before, know the drill.

We divide our reading matter into sections, and we make a thread per section, so that latecomers or people who need more time, can still participate without getting to see spoilers.

Our reading/discussion officially starts on Thursday, and Stephen wants to go quite fast, but I already have so many notes regarding just the first few pages!

So in order to get to know one another, and to find our feet, I feel we should make the first thread only for part one of Combray, up to the paragraph that reads:
"...so in that moment all the flowers in our garden and in M. Swann’s park, and the water-lilies on the Vivonne and the good folk of the village and their little dwellings and the parish church and the whole of Combray and its surroundings, taking shape and solidity, sprang into being, town and gardens alike, from my cup of tea."

As usual, I will make a few threads ahead of time, so that those who want to go faster, can jump ahead. But if you want to go slower than that, even a lot slower - do not worry! Because we are separating the sections, it doesn't really matter when you post your comments, someone will see and respond. In fact, there's still activity on a group read we had in 2013! (Not much, but you get my point...)

I'll repeat this message on the actual discussion thread.

After sitting on this series for so long, an invite into this group was probably just the push I needed to knock this one off. Thanks! While I like the Vintage covers better, I would be going for the Davis translation. Have a good day everyone!

I got the Viking edition of the Davis translation (and the subsquent three volumes they put out) because I liked the cover. I did have to scrounge about some used bookstores for it though, and I don't know if they'll ever release the rest of the volumes now.



Now I'm looking at those Vintage covers and holy moly they are great. If I ever get the urge to read the Moncrieff translation I will be sorely tempted. (I'm probably never reading the Moncrieff translation, unless I fall completely head over heels for this project!)



(Update: Hmmm. These appear to be the same translation (Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright) as the Modern Library edition Traveller linked above. That is the translation I would want to read if I read the Moncrieff. I... may become the proud owner of another set of Proust tonight! LOL.)

Thank you for the Invite, Trav. I am currently in Paris, so I will post properly when I am back. Incidentally I visited yesterday the newly redone Musée Carnavalet where they have recreated Proust’s room. Today I am going to the Park Monceau area to visit the Nissim Camondo museum and walk around Proust’s area.

Dipankar wrote: "After sitting on this series for so long, an invite into this group was probably just the push I needed to knock this one off. Thanks! While I like the Vintage covers better, I would be going for t..."

You can't go far wrong with the Davis translation, Dipankar! I know exactly how you feel about sitting on this series for so long. It's probably at least 10 years for me, if not longer. It's time!

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "I got the Viking edition of the Davis translation (and the subsquent three volumes they put out) because I liked the cover. I did have to scrounge about some used bookstores for it though, and I do..."

Hi Amy, I myself am hard put to decide between the Davis and the Kilmartin/Enright. I probably know the first two pages of SW off by heart by now, from comparing all the translations.

I have finally, just yesterday, managed to get hold of the set that you show, the (Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright) . Here comes the scary part: I don't know if you've read the part: "A note on the translation", but while I was reading it, I got the kind of squirmy feeling you get when you read the package insert of medication that was prescribed to you, and it tells you of the many side-effects the medication has. The reason for this feeling, is because he goes into detail of what a sloppy writer Proust was - how he made sloppy notes and revisions and additions, even being sloppy with his punctuation. He claims the Moncrieff & co just arbitrarily plonked the additions in where they thought best, "corrected" the punctuation as they thought it should be, and so forth.

Apparently the original French manuscript was reworked in 1954 for this very reason, because .. wait let me quote directly:

"In 1954 a revised three-volume edition of À la recherche was published in Gallimard’s Bibliothèque de la Pléiade. The editors, M. Pierre Clarac and M. André Ferré, had been charged by Proust’s heirs with the task of “establishing a text of his novel as faithful as possible to his intentions.”

With infinite care and patience they examined all the relevant material—manuscripts, notebooks, typescripts, proofs, as well as the original edition—and produced what is generally agreed to be a virtually impeccable transcription of Proust’s text.

They scrupulously avoided the arbitrary emendations, the touchings-up, the wholesale reshufflings of paragraphs in which the original editors indulged, confining themselves to clarifying the text wherever necessary, correcting errors due to haste or inadvertence, eliminating careless repetitions and rationalising the punctuation (an area where Proust was notoriously casual).

They justify and explain their editorial decisions in detailed critical notes, occupying some 200 pages over the three volumes, and print all the significant variants as well as a number of passages that Proust did not have time to work into his book.

The Pléiade text differs from that of the original edition, mostly in minor though none the less significant ways, throughout the novel. In the last three sections (the third Pléiade volume) the differences are sometimes considerable. In particular, MM. Clarac and Ferré have included a number of passages, sometimes of a paragraph or two, sometimes of several pages, which the original editors omitted for no good reason.
The present translation is a reworking, on the basis of the Pléiade edition, of Scott Moncrieff’s version of the first six sections of À la recherche—or the first eleven volumes of the twelve-volume English edition."

So... I think I'm going to be reading this one. It will be interesting to see, with all of your members reading different translations, if the differences are significant enough to be noticeable.

...but now I'm thinking I'd like to get my hands on the Pléiade French edition as well....

Kalliope wrote: "Thank you for the Invite, Trav. I am currently in Paris, so I will post properly when I am back. Incidentally I visited yesterday the newly redone Musée Carnavalet where they have recreated Proust’..."

Oh, you lucky fish, Kalliope, what excellent timing! Way to make the novel and the writer feel more 'real'.
I'm so glad to see you on the group, BTW, thanks for joining. I'm sure you'll bring a very artistic touch and aesthetic and cultural viewpoint in addition to all your other skills, not to mention the language aspect.

Have you decided yet in which language you're going to read it in, and if in French, have you considered the Pléiade edition ? Or, since you've read it already, will you just be adding comments?

I wondered why Enright revised a revision of a translation. Was it Thomas Wolfe who delivered a novel to his editor in a steamer trunk and just let him carve it down? I'm getting that vibe from Proust. No wonder Davis is the first to do a completely new English translation in all this time. (I do wish Penguin had had her do the whole translation instead of switching translators for each volume, but what do I know?)

I'll be starting in Davis for sure since that's what I have on hand; I halfway suspect I will enjoy that one the most of the available English versions. I did order the Enright last night, and also found the first volume of the Carter revision used (this one: Swann's Way: In Search of Lost Time, Volume 1). I can always get plain Moncrieff from Gutenberg. So I can do comparative looks at passages we're interested in in four English translations/revisions if anyone wants them for Swann's Way at least. Just missing the plain Kilmartin revision.

Traveller wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Thank you for the Invite, Trav. I am currently in Paris, so I will post properly when I am back. Incidentally I visited yesterday the newly redone Musée Carnavalet where they have ..."

I will certainly read it in French. The Pléiade is tempting but their editions tend to be on very fine paper on which one cannot scribble with pencil. Instead I am thinking of the Blanche edition by Gallimard.

http://www.gallimard.fr/Catalogue/GAL...#

Today I finally visited the Nissim Camondo museum.

I recommend the Letters to Camondo, which I have read twice today.

I walked past the number 45, Rue de Courcelles, where Proust lived from 1900-1906.

As for reading it now, I am not sure. I've been wanting to visit it again (read it twice now) but I read around themes or reading projects and soon I will be concentrating for a couple of months on Italy. I'll see what I do.

But thank you, Trav, for considering me. I very much appreciate it.

Sorry, but I'll leave the group. I don't have enough time for this kind of thing. Though, I've spent and left some beautiful comments. Goodbye to everyone. That was nice to talk with all of you.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "I did order the Enright last night, and also found the first volume of the Carter revision used (this one: Swann's Way: In Search of Lost Time, Volume 1). .."

Hmm, I think I missed the Carter, because it said "edited" and I wasn't sure at the time what that meant. I've now read the description proper, and see that it would be useful indeed. So Carter was basically yet another "teacher who corrected" Moncrief.

Amy, so I assume you've read that essay that Davis wrote regarding the translation of Proust? Reading that, and my own comparisons of the translations vs the original makes me realize how terribly hard it is to translate such lyrical prose as that of Proust's. The problem is that what he says can be interpreted in more than one way.
I will demonstrate with my own example after posting an excerpt from Davis's essay:

"Another early question that haunted me was whether a new
translation was needed at all.
This was a real worry. If the Moncrief was faithful to the structures of the sentences and beautifully written (according to some, anyway), and if it had then been twice revised on the basis of corrected originals, so that Moncrief’s more extravagant flourishes of style and departures had been fixed and his most extreme archaicisms or preciousnesses or squeamish euphemisms cleaned up in a fully contemporary edition, then, I thought, wouldn’t one have the ideal English version? Well, no. One problem is that neither Kilmartin nor Enright – as far as I can see from a number of close comparisons along the way – was as good a stylist as Moncrief, so that although the latest version is undoubtedly more correct than Moncrief’s, the newly rendered passages are not always up to the standard of the original translation. The text throughout could also be brought much closer to the French.

There is still a great deal of ‘‘padding’’ in the revised versions. Not
all the archaicisms have been eradicated – you will still come upon such expressions as ‘‘I bethought myself’’ – and not all the mistakes have been corrected. "

Ok, so here are my notes:

Well, here are some of the translation notes I have made so far, just on page 1:
I’m finding that the original and Moncrieff differ a lot. There’s more imaginative language in the original which is killed in Moncrieff.
Also, some clumsiness in Moncrieff: for example, when the narrator wonders what time it is, in Moncrieff he wonders what o’clock it is.

In French, measured time is always expressed as “l’heure”. For example, if you want to say “ Try and be on time”, you would say: “essaie d'être à l'heure” , or if you were to ask: “What time is it?” it would be:” Quelle heure est-il?” So, when the narrator says: “Je me demandais quelle heure il pouvait être « (I wondered what time it could be) Moncrieff expresses it : « I would ask myself what o'clock it could be”.

Also, “a really obscure thing” becomes “ a matter dark indeed” The latter could mean something completely different… “ être gravé dans son souvenir” being, “engraved-” or “etched in his memory”, becomes : “being fixed for ever in his memory: (Sure, the meaning is the same, but the former is more lyrical)

“Suffering” becomes “pain” which could have a different meaning, as well as many other words, but some are really hard, for example, "malade" - that's actually a sick person, or an ill person, or even a crazy person, but it can also be a patient, though there is a word for that in French, being: "patient" and it's kind of bowdlerized in the English versions to patient, invalid, etc. So I can't help wondering, if Proust had meant to say patient, surely he would have? Maybe French has changed in the meantime?

And then we come to the pretty or beautiful pillow cheeks as being translated as being the comfortable pillow. Surely if Proust had wanted to say comfortable pillow, he would have said oreiller confortable?

And I would for example agree with the cheeks being "plump and fresh" whereas every translation has a different description of the cheeks. Because English and French are idiomatically different, I, not being a native French speaker, don't know which would be the best words to use, but I can see how hard it must be to get as close to the "feel" of the original language as possible.

Just a quick note to everyone: you don't have to follow every thread on the group if you don't want to be bothered with notifications. If you want to follow the main discussion but not the chatter in this thread, please unfollow this thread and follow the main discussion, which will start here. https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Our discussion about translations and additional reading materials should actually have been done here https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..., I apologize, but I like to follow the natural flow of a thread, so just continued with it here.

If you are new to groups and not sure how to navigate them, scroll up to the top of this thread and click on "Group Home" in that little box on your right. I will link you to the group home page from where you can navigate to whichever thread you want to be in. It's here: https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

Kalliope wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Thank you for the Invite, Trav. I am currently in Paris, so I will post properly when I am back. Incidentally I visited yesterday the newly redone Musée Carnavale..."

Well, Kalliope, as I mentioned elsewhere, our threads remain open indefinitely, so you are quite welcome to swoop in and comment whenever it suits you. I am sure reading our threads will inspire you to comment, even if from your memories of reading it previously. :)

And, happy travelling!

I have never read Proust, but have come across some inspirations to do so lately -- articles, not whole books -- so, thank you, Traveller, for the invitation, and hello to others whom I haven't seen for a while and new acquaintances-to-be.

I am committing only to the first novel, since I never did stop being busy (in part due to the advent of grandchildren into my world, plus other reading challenges -- and also the world and everything in it, which I'm hopefully not complaining about -- too much). I may fall behind sooner rather than later....

The translation I'll be using is the original Moncrieff. I have a 1934 Modern Library two-volume boxed set that belonged to my uncle, who, if he acquired it then, was about 18.

I'll count the introduction, by Joseph Wood Krutch, as one of my inspirations. He urges me to trust Proust's meanderings and come on in, the water's fine, is what he says, more or less. Take the plunge and magical things will happen. Here's hoping it's not like when, long ago, I initiated myself into marijuana with the expectation of magic, and waited... and waited....

I will put my inspirational articles on the other thread after a while, and also will find or take a picture of my boxed set.

One question, though: why is this group secret? I have never been in a Goodreads secret group, and isn't being open part of the point?

Jan wrote: "I have never read Proust, .." Well, that's a good thing, because some people have read so much about him that they've forgotten to experience the text itself as something new and fresh. :)

Welcome, Jan. Regarding the 'secret', I had last set it to private, not secret, - it was of course secret while we were setting it up, most people do it that way so that once you invite people at least there's already something there, and people didn't try to join while you were still setting it up.

And why it is private, is because initially we were thinking of making it a quick fast private discussion, but then we thought it would be much more fun and enriching to have a big discussion with lots of people, so we invited you all to join. :)

I can ask my co-founder how he feels about making it a completely open group, if you like.

I had not seen the Davis essay, but I absolutely will read it. Translation in general is just fascinating, and the Proust editions are a really interesting puzzle. It is just really strange to me still that they would revise the translation instead of retranslating, especially after there was a more definitive edition in French and with what Davis says about the persistent strangeness. Your own example really showcases it. I do think I will pull a brief post together about editions from what I've seen so far for the resources thread; maybe somebody else can benefit from my bewilderment.

I will try to get the first section read tonight, but it may be the weekend before I make it to the other thread. I stayed up way to late last night looking at different editions :-)

Traveller wrote: "...Regarding the 'secret', I had last set it to private, not secret, - it ...."

Oh, okay -- thanks for clarifying, Traveller. I had come across "secret" somewhere or other.

Amy, I commend you for taking your time to choose the right edition. Since you (we) will be with Proust for the long haul, it is very important to choose the edition that best suits your tastes.

To your question about why preserve Scott Moncrieff's version despite all his infelicities, many in the Anglosphere still attest to his version to this day, for capturing the spirit of Proust's work *despite* his rearrangements. The American writer, critic, and translator Daniel Mendelsohn, for instance, a huge admirer of Proust and fluent in French himself (he spent the year of Covid reading the equally voluminous memoirs of the duc de Saint-Simon in the original) has stated publicly that he prefers Scott Moncrieff's version above all. A bold thing to say considering he's part of the New Yorker set that absolutely adores everything Lydia Davis does.

By capturing the "spirit" of Proust, I mean Proust's poetry. Every so often while reading the Scott Moncrieff version my first time through, I'd come across a phrasing, or passage, that took my breath away. For me, I've taken that to be Proust's poetry though I've never cross-referenced those moments with the original. When I tried the Lydia Davis version, those moments never happened. In my opinion, she had flattened out those brilliant moments, as if purposefully removing the jewels for being too ostentatious. We get Proust the memoirist instead of Proust the poet. Thanks to Scott Moncrieff, I retain to this day the very strong sense of Proust the poet (which he definitely was - he wrote it and read carefully the great poets of the French tradition). The trade-off is that we have to endure the antiquarianisms of Scott Moncrieff's English that Traveller has been so kind to point out to us. So, tough call.

Don't worry if you fall behind a bit. Take the time to read for the version that best suits you. You could always switch mid-stream for one of the other versions just to see what you're missing.

Good luck, and thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Thanks for the invitation to yours and Stephen's Proust group, Traveller. For a long time now I've been meaning to reread the Combray section which is my favourite part of the entire work so I will use this opportunity to do that. It's also the opportunity to finally open the elegant leather-bound first volume of the Pléiade edition which someone gave me after I finished the Recherche back in 2013. The book is much smaller than a regular paperback and has very delicate pages and tiny print. It feels like a breviary complete with ribbons, and as I was reading the first two pages this morning, I could almost imagine myself in the church the narrator speaks of in the first paragraph. And it struck me that there is something incantatory about those first sentences.

Fionnuala wrote: "It's also the opportunity to finally open the elegant leather-bound first volume of the Pléiade edition which someone gave me after I finished the Recherche back in 2013. .."
Thanks for joining, Fionnuala! I look forward to your unique and interesting perspectives.
Ah, the enviable Pléiade edition... I like how the fomat of the book itself is already influencing the feel of the read for you, Fio! But come, let's continue our comments here https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..., as we start to segue into the actual text of the novel.

Stephen wrote: "Amy, I commend you for taking your time to choose the right edition. Since you (we) will be with Proust for the long haul, it is very important to choose the edition that best suits your tastes. ..."

Thanks for this whole comment, Stephen; several insights here! I'm definitely going to be doing a lot of comparative reading as we go through. Just the act of translation itself is so fascinating to me, and this text is such an interesting stage for it.

Fionnuala wrote: "The book is much smaller than a regular paperback and has very delicate pages and tiny print. It feels like a breviary complete with ribbons, and as I was reading the first two pages this morning, I could almost imagine myself in the church the narrator speaks of in the first paragraph. And it struck me that there is something incantatory about those first sentences."

You always have such a beautiful way of evoking books and the communion of reading, Fionnuala. That's a gorgeous image.

Members, please start posting on the discussion thread as soon as you have come to a point where you feel you have comments or questions, please don't wait until you are at the end of Combray I, or the beginning won't be fresh in your minds anymore! I have posted several comments, but they only pertain to the first few pages.

Remember this is a close reading, so I for one, am putting every paragraph under the microscope.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "...You always have such a beautiful way of evoking books and the communion of reading, Fionnuala. That's a gorgeous image."

Lovely to see so many people I know here, Amy. Goodreads is a bit like a kaleidoscope—as it turns, people emerge and fade, emerge and fade...

Traveller wrote: "Ah, the enviable Pléiade edition... I like how the fomat of the book itself is already influencing the feel of the read for you, Fio!.."

Was just reading these lines of Sappho and thought how applicable they are to Proust:
Tonight I've watched the moon and then the Pleiades go down.
The night is now half-gone; I am in bed alone.

Fionnuala wrote: "Was just reading these lines of Sappho and thought how applicable they are to Proust:
Tonight I've watched the moon and then the Pleiades go down.
The night is now half-gone; I am in bed alone..."

It is indeed very fitting for especially the overture, Fionnuala! Thanks for sharing it. I'll never say no to lines of poetry... 😎