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Nothing to See Here
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2021 TOFavorites - The Tourney > TOF Opening Round 6 - Nothing to See vs. The Tsar of Love n Techno

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Maggie (magwi) | 284 comments I have long dreaded being in this position: choosing between two books I truly love, by authors I deeply admire, doing different things that are nevertheless equally meaningful/worthy/enjoyable. A match-up like this happens in every Tournament, it seems, and so I shouldn't be surprised to find myself here, now, in this Tournament of Favorites.

Both of these are re-reads for me, and I first read them both in advance reader copies. This isn't meant as a brag (although, yeah, okay, it's a little bit of a brag) so much as it is some context: I love getting to read books early, before there's much noise about them, particularly when they're books I end up adoring. It can also be strange to read something months before anyone else -- to be out in front of the conversation, doing my small bit to tell you that a book will be worth your time, but then being onto the next thing by the time you get to read it. In some ways, it's an equal-but-opposite strangeness to return to a book a goodly chunk of time after it has left the immediate literary conversation. Picking up The Tsar of Love and Techno again made me think about when we'll get something new from Anthony Marra; picking up Nothing to See Here again made me think about reading it in late summer 2019, before I got married, before the pandemic, and how much can change in such a short span of time.

I came to Kevin Wilson's work on the recommendation of the Biblioracle himself, John Warner, when he suggested I read The Family Fang. I absolutely adored that novel, so much so that I bought it for my sister and we dreamed of starring together in an adaptation. (The less said about the Nicole Kidman/Jason Bateman adaptation, the better, although Christopher Walken and Maryann Plunkett were terrific as the parents.) Wilson's just-slightly-askew universe delighted me again in Perfect Little World and Nothing to See Here was one of those books I'd been anticipating for about a year -- from when I first spotted it in the HarperCollins catalogue to when I saw the cover to when I got the publicity email to when it showed up in my mailbox, each step of the staircase bringing more eagerness, more excitement.

Anthony Marra came into my life mainly via the Powell's Indiespensable subscription series with A Constellation of Vital Phenomena, which I'd heard about in some pre-release buzz but I didn't pick up on my own. I was blown away by that book, perhaps all the more so for not knowing much about it and thinking it would be one thing only to discover it was something else altogether. The Tsar of Love and Techno came relatively hot on the heels of that first book and I was definitely riding the high of Constellation when I gushed to Anthony Marra at BookExpo 2015 as he signed my galley of Tsar. It was so fresh in my mind that I didn't have time to anticipate the next book; I could only rush into it.

So this is where I started, with this assignment. It's impossible to set all of those things aside and take books from scratch, but I did my best as I returned to them this spring. After all, I'm a different person! Certainly a different person from who I was in 2015, but even a different person from 2019. The technicolor polyphony of Tsar that first sang out like the chord at the beginning of "A Hard Day's Night," that matched the rollicking symphony of New York City in my 20s, had a different and somewhat more sweetly-melancholic feel in the middle of the Catskills; the tight suburban-ish focus of Nothing to See Here and the sense of not knowing what's going on at the neighbor's house hits you from another angle when you have neighbors with houses compared to living inside of an apartment building.

Oddly enough, though, I landed in more or less the same place with both of these books upon re-reading. Maybe that was inevitable, because even though I'm a different person, I can't un-read my first-reads of these books -- but maybe it's not such a complex thought after all, because my thoughts come down to structure. Marra's book goes wide by design, ranging across the better part of a century. It is, as the cover (of the hardcover) and the table of contents imply, a mixtape -- and the shifts of mood and tempo and emotion are layered accordingly. I'm tempted to lay my own soundtrack to each of these stories, because I love mixtapes and because to my mind the best ones encourage you to then make your own. Aqualung's "Broken Bones" juxtaposed with Marra's "The End"? My heart. Also, I didn't really know this when I read Tsar, or maybe it's Tsar that helped me solidify this understanding, but I *love* a novel-in-stories. Give me brilliant glimpses into a handful of lives, sketching in competing angles of the same painting (as it were) and making a whole world in the process? J'adore.

Wilson's book is a sprint, an opening-up of possibility that ends almost as soon as it gets going. We're let into the strangeness of the kids, the sticky summer sweat of Nashville, and things build to an inevitable head -- but they end just as a new chapter of the story begins. The real adventure lies, I think, in Lillian's experiences with the kids after the final page; everything that came before was just the set-up, the "you're probably wondering how I got here" explanation that is in and of itself an interesting story... but not the most interesting story. To be sure, I think it's rare that an author can deliver something so fully realized that it continues to play on in your mind after the final page, not just for a scene or two but rather for an entire additional novel. And I loved what was on the page for what it was, the slice of the story that was given to me -- but what a precious thing, to get to the end of the book and feel downright grumpy that it isn't twice as long.

In the end, this turned out to not be such a hard decision after all. I loved Nothing to See Here but it left me wanting more; I loved The Tsar of Love and Techno and it left me feeling whole.

Sometimes you want to want more, and sometimes you'd rather not be so filled up -- but given the task of choosing between two books I otherwise wholeheartedly adore, I chose the only way I could.

Winner: The Tsar of Love and Techno


message 3: by Elizabeth (last edited Oct 19, 2021 10:11AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Elizabeth Arnold | 1314 comments Great to see you here, Drew, I actually just mentioned SMDB in yesterday's judgment without realizing you were judging today.

I agree with you here 100%. I loved NTSH, so, so much, I had so much fun reading it, Wilson is a god, the way he so perfectly melds humor and pathos, the very human quirkiness of his characters...He's an immediate pre-order for me. But yeah, in the end I wanted more. There was too much unsaid, and the end felt like a slash.

I got Tsar on audio when it first came out, because that's all my library had available. And I admired it, I thought it was fascinating, and knew the writing was beautiful, but I think I wasn't in the right frame of mind for it. It just felt too heavy.

I'd always planned to go back to it on paper, because I knew I couldn't fully appreciate it by just listening. So I picked it up again this spring (started reading the week after my first vax, in those approximately 10 minutes I was feeling hopeful so could stand that heaviness...) and it went from a 4 star, appreciate-and-get-why-you-love-it-but-don't-love-it-myself to an immediate 5 star. For such a heavy set of stories, it was also a fun read (in a very different way), now being able to recognize characters popping up between the stories, the complexity of how the stories weaved together, along with the beauty of his language. So glad it's moving on!

Thanks for joining in the fun, Drew!


Kyle | 898 comments This is the first one I disagree with - though it's an excellently written judgment and I can't fault it one bit. But I fell in love with Nothing to See Here and I felt like "Tsar" was a faint echo of Marra's previous book, "A Constellation of Vital Phenomena." Ah well; every other match has gone in a way I'm fine with, so one favorite bowing out isn't too much to complain about.


Tristan | 139 comments Big thanks to Drew for an excellent decision. Every time I look at my copy of Tsar, I wonder when we will see something new from Marra. I hope soon.


message 6: by Tim (last edited Oct 19, 2021 11:37AM) (new)

Tim | 512 comments In the interests of getting a little bit of trolling into this much too nice, so far, tournament:

What do Anthony Marra and Adam Johnson have in common?

1) They are both American, born and bred.

2) They are both teaching at Stanford.

3) Johnson's first name begins with A and ends with M, Marra's last name ends with A and begins with M.

3) They both wrote novels set in communist nations (okay, Marra's novel straddles Russia's transition).

4) They both earned the ire of the ToB commentariat for cultural appropriation and were deservedly bounced from the ToToB and the ToF.

5) Marra has a secretary named Johnson; Johnson has a secretary named Marra!

Uncanny.


message 7: by Bob (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bob Lopez | 529 comments Tim wrote: "Marra has a secretary named Johnson; Johnson has a secretary named Marra!."

As I was reading your comment, I was composing in my head something along these lines.

Excellent judgment, Drew. We had opposite reactions to our assignments. My readings ended up inverting my initial readings, and you "landed in more or less the same place with both of these books". I wonder how I would've chosen in your place, and you in mine.

As an aside, this TOF has been great fun, a great solace, and I hope we figure out how to do something together in Fall 2022


Tristan | 139 comments And a simple google search later, I've answered my own question. Marra's next book, Mercury Pictures Presents: A Novel is scheduled to be released July 19, 2022.


Bretnie | 717 comments Love this write-up so much!

I hadn't read Tsar until this year and I was surprised (I don't know why) by how much I loved it. I think it'll be one that stays with me for a while.

But damn I love those fire kids too!


message 10: by Lark (last edited Oct 19, 2021 12:55PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lark Benobi (larkbenobi) | 197 comments For one reason or another I found both of these books difficult to read. I'm autistic and sometimes I parse sentences differently on the page than other readers--more literally, more metaphorically, something--where reading in my so-called native language is like reading in a foreign language I don't know very well. Both of these books were like that for me.

Anyway it took me four reads to get through Nothing to See Here without feeling disgruntled and confused, and then I ended up loving it.

Drew, thanks so much for this careful attention to both of these novels. It's reminded me that sometimes I need to go back and try again. I haven't given Anthony Marra the same disciplined attention as Kevin Wilson, and now I will.


message 11: by Care (new) - rated it 4 stars

Care (bkclubcare) | 196 comments I wasn't sure which book I would be cheering for today. I actually broke off mid-judgment to go watch the trailer for Family Fang because somehow I missed that movie, then I read my own reviews, rethought my reactions to both of these books, and finally came back to see if my heart would be joyous or broken.

I loved both books. Yet, I am particularly thrilled that the Tsar moves on!

The judges are blowing me away with these fabulous assessments and verdicts. So attentive, careful and considerate -- AND a pleasure to read!


message 12: by Kip (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kip Kyburz (kybrz) | 541 comments I ended up doing less rereading for this tourney than I expected to, but Tsar was one I planned on rereading. I may be slightly hesitant because the book is perfect? A book of polyphonic short stories coalescing into one unified whole is like catnip to me. I am curious to revisit as my reading life has changed drastically since then and maybe the magic of that plot meld won't hit as hard. The emotional core of those stories coming together may have hit much harder when I was 25 and fresh out of school than now when I am 32 and have had much more life happen to me (please do not begrudge me for it only being 7 years lol, transition from school to career to parenting is significant enough for me to count it.) This is all to say 2 things: 1. I am excited to see how I feel about many of these books in 10, 20, 40 more years 2. I read NtSH and everything I loved about it were all the emotions it provoked in me, so the emotional undertones within Tsar probably won't change to me one bit. I am excited to revisit that perfection.


Elizabeth Arnold | 1314 comments lark wrote: "For one reason or another I found both of these books difficult to read. I'm autistic and sometimes I parse sentences differently on the page than other readers--more literally, more metaphorically..."

I'm always so intrigued when you talk about reading/interpreting books differently. You're one of the most thoughtful, intelligent reviewers I follow, you obviously read deeply, and pull things from books that I'd have a hard time parsing. I feel like sometimes our reading tastes are so similar and sometimes vary wildly, and as the mom to someone who's also neurodiverse, very bright and seems to read and understand differently, I'd love to be able to see through your eyes.

Also interesting that you at first had a harder time with NTSH, which was at heart, I think, about neurodiverse children (and to me felt so familiar and accessible!) This is making me want to learn more about how the brain processes language and story.


Phyllis | 785 comments Drew wrote: "I have long dreaded being in this position: choosing between two books I truly love, by authors I deeply admire, doing different things that are nevertheless equally meaningful/worthy/enjoyable. A ..."

Yes!!! Thank you, Drew. You've expressed my thoughts on these two books exactly. Loved them both; would vote for The Tsar of Love and Techno to advance. And that novels-in-stories thing you mention -- I don't think I've ever seen it done any better than in Tsar.


Phyllis | 785 comments Tim wrote: "In the interests of getting a little bit of trolling into this much too nice, so far, tournament:..."
You are always just way too funny, Tim. This reminds me much of the old Lincoln/Kennedy comparison that makes it way around from time to time. But surely you don't say they were "deservedly bounced" because of cultural appropriation?!? That doesn't sound like you, Tim - have aliens taken over your body?


message 16: by Bob (last edited Oct 19, 2021 01:11PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bob Lopez | 529 comments Tristan wrote: "And a simple google search later, I've answered my own question. Marra's next book, Mercury Pictures Presents: A Novel is scheduled to be released July 19, 2022."

I wonder if this means Drew already has an ARC?!?

Incidentally, I posted a short vid on my IG a while back. There's an app that makes it look like you're on fire, and I took a video of my kids. There's an image of the NTSH cover and swipe to see the video. instagram.com/p/CKC4FvyhVbe


Phyllis | 785 comments Tristan wrote: "And a simple google search later, I've answered my own question. Marra's next book, Mercury Pictures Presents: A Novel is scheduled to be released July 19, 2022."
Thanks for the sleuthing on behalf of us all, Tristan.


message 18: by Bryn (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bryn Lerud | 180 comments Here again I don’t know which I would advance if it were me. I know I gave the Wilson 5 stars and I just read the Marra a couple months ago and gave it 4 stars. But that’s superficial. Nothing to See Here was indeed a sprint. It moved quickly, it was funny. It was outrageous. The Tsar of Love and Techno was heartbreaking and it was difficult for me to keep track of the characters and their appearances in different stories and different contexts. Plus I was reading it while traveling to the wedding of a niece who was marrying a Russian! Isn’t it weird how novels fit into your life? They are both wonderful novels and it’s a privilege to read what you have to say about them Drew. This is so much fun!


Elizabeth Arnold | 1314 comments Bob wrote: "Incidentally, I posted a short vid on my IG a while back. There's an app that makes it look like you're on fire, and I took a video of my kids. There's an image of the NTSH cover and swipe to see the video. instagram.com/p/CKC4FvyhVbe"

That's awesome, I bet they got a huge kick out of that! (And they're just adorable!)


message 20: by Amy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Amy (asawatzky) | 1743 comments Great decision Drew, though I would have gone the other way. I'm learning that a 'book-in-stories' is not my true love (though A Visit From the Goon Squad first clued me in on this trait). But this was done as well as I've seen - especially for the years it covers.
For a bonkers premise like Nothing to See Here, the themes portrayed were really easy to empathize with and the characters both odd and familiar. I loved them to pieces. I listened to NtSH which probably gave it an extra star in my rating as well. Has anyone mentioned what the audio of Tsar is like? I would imagine it difficult to track the timelines in that format.


message 21: by Amy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Amy (asawatzky) | 1743 comments Bob wrote: "Tristan wrote: "And a simple google search later, I've answered my own question. Marra's next book, Mercury Pictures Presents: A Novel is scheduled to be released July 19, 2022."

I wonder if this ..."


omigoodness Bob your kids are adorable but I won't be able to show it to my little cause she is currently terrified of fire!


message 22: by Amy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Amy (asawatzky) | 1743 comments Bryn wrote: "...traveling to a ..wedding, marrying a Russian.."

I love coincidences like that. Did you want to talk to everyone at the wedding about the book!? (I wouldn't be able to help myself!)


Elizabeth Arnold | 1314 comments Amy wrote: "Great decision Drew, though I would have gone the other way. I'm learning that a 'book-in-stories' is not my true love (though A Visit From the Goon Squad first clued me in on this t..."

I mentioned it above, and yes it was! Definitely don't recommend it on audio, at least for a first read.


message 24: by Care (new) - rated it 4 stars

Care (bkclubcare) | 196 comments Amy wrote: "Great decision Drew, .... Has anyone mentioned what the audio of Tsar is like? I would imagine it difficult to track the timelines in that format."

Amy, I first started with the audiobook of Tsar and, to be perfectly honest, I thought it was NOT GOOD. So I secured the book from the library and MUCH PREFERRED reading in print. The ease of flipping back to pages that resonated, reconnected or refreshed an impression... Can't do that as well with audio.

But I also think it was the narration I was opposed to.

Btw, I am one that really really likes the novel-by-linked-short-story format.


message 25: by C (new) - rated it 4 stars

C | 793 comments Awesome final reason for your judgement, Drew. I completely get it and I didn't even love 'Tsar' that much. But your reasoning has convinced me.


message 26: by Risa (last edited Oct 20, 2021 08:35AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Risa (risa116) | 625 comments I love both of these books.

I thought NTSH was gone too soon from the ToB. It had far more heart than anything else we read that year, and I found its kookiness endearing. (Like Drew, I also loved The Family Fang. Then again, I have a soft spot for Wes Anderson flicks, so ....)

I had never read Tsar until this ToF, though I remembered ToB commentariat members singing its praises (mix tape pun intended?). Despite being, like Drew, an Indiespensables subscriber, I still have not read my fancy Powells edition of Constellations, so I was able to come to Tsar with zero preconceptions about the author and his work. Frankly, this book blew me away. It was not merely the cleverness of its structure (though that was part of it); it was how deeply connected I felt to the characters.

I am personally unmoved by the "cultural appropriation" argument as applied to this novel. I don't think you have to be Chechnyan to write about Chechnya. In fact, I find that line of thinking very chilling. No one has a literary monopoly on any culture or historical juncture. Any fiction writer who believes s/he/they can render a setting well should be free to attempt it. Readers can then decide how well that author executed what s/he/they set out to do.

Here, Marra executed what he set out to do very well, indeed. From my vantage point, Tsar is a masterpiece.

This is all by way of saying that while NTSH still has a piece of my heart, and while I will definitely read whatever Wilson gifts us with next, I would have called this round the same way Drew did.


message 27: by C (new) - rated it 4 stars

C | 793 comments Risa wrote: "I love both of these books.

I thought NTSH was gone too soon from the ToB. It had far more heart than anything else we read that year, and I found its kookiness endearing. (Like Drew, I also love..."


Yes, I will still draw my literary sword any day for 'The Orphan Master's Son'... "cultural appropriation" or no... I can't imagine my shelves without that book.


message 28: by Risa (last edited Oct 20, 2021 07:13PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Risa (risa116) | 625 comments C wrote: "Risa wrote: "I love both of these books.

I thought NTSH was gone too soon from the ToB. It had far more heart than anything else we read that year, and I found its kookiness endearing. (Like Drew..."


SAME. Loved TOMS, and forever grateful to this group for getting me to pull it off my huge TBR pile, in which it had sat dormant since the year in which it was published.

The "appropriation" debate is often very problematic to me. It is one thing to criticize the publishing industry for opening its doors to writers who are imagining outside their own culture while keeping those same doors closed to writers from within the culture who are also writing about it. That is a productive conversation.

It is also absolutely legitimate to say, "I believe the author got X, Y, Z details of this culture wrong, and those inaccuracies detracted from my ability to enjoy this book."

But/and, truly - fiction is an act of IMAGINATION. It is not intended to be historical or cultural record. Anyone is free to like or dislike any book, to say that they did not connect with it for any of a number of reasons. But I am also wary of how hasty people are to slap the label of "appropriation" on any author who dares write about a culture outside of his or her "own". That way uncomfortably lies censorship, and it doesn't feel to me to be in the spirit of what fiction is supposed to be able to encompass.


Phyllis | 785 comments Risa wrote: "The 'appropriation' debate is often very problematic to me."

Yes! to everything Risa said about the "appropriation" debate. And, novels would cease to exist or be extraordinarily dull if each author could only include characters who are exactly like the author or write about only experiences the author has actually had -- that would be autobiography (or these days "memoir"). We can hardly declaim "appropriation" and at the same time criticize novels that fail to include varied perspectives, leaving authors in an impossible no man's land.


Nadine in California (nadinekc) | 763 comments Phyllis wrote: "Risa wrote: "The 'appropriation' debate is often very problematic to me."

Yes! to everything Risa said about the "appropriation" debate. And, novels would cease to exist or be extraordinarily dull..."


Yes from me too. The fact that there's an 'own voices' category of books doesn't mean that other voices can't be legitimate. Feels like the tentacles of cancel culture overreaching.


Jenny (Reading Envy) (readingenvy) | 642 comments I also love how The Tsar... interfiles with my favorite of Marra's work, A Constellation of Vital Phenomena. When I had a chance to meet this author, I jumped on it, because he's on my list of favorites!!


message 32: by Lauren (last edited Oct 20, 2021 03:50PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Lauren Oertel | 1390 comments With great hesitancy, I'll chime in on the appropriation conversation here, mainly because I think about this every day and it's important for the literary world to continue engaging in these conversations.

American Dirt was such a perfectly disastrous scandal that it really has shifted the way things are done in publishing. It's also led to a lot more thought going into writing as far as racism, privilege, etc. in general, which has been fantastic, in my opinion.

One of my writing teachers (Queer Latina/Indigenous-identifying) said something that I try to keep in mind with this. "You can write whatever you want, but don't f- it up." She means that white writers should feel free to explore different cultures/identities in their writing, but if you're going to try to publish that writing (getting credit and if it works out, money), you want to make sure you're respecting the cultures/identities you used in that writing.

I've seen the appropriation question in general (ex. white folks wearing clothing, jewelry, etc. that are very culture-specific) aim toward two questions recently, which have helped me navigate a few things. 1. Are you personally profiting from the use of that culture's items without permission/attribution (ex. a white person selling clothing made with African or Indigenous prints)? 2. If you're not profiting, but just want to wear/buy something (ex. clothing with African or Indigenous prints) did you purchase them from someone who is part of that culture (rather than a white-owned business)? I follow these conversations closely, and of course there's no single agreed-upon answer for these things, but this is where I've seen a lot of folks land (for now at least - this could change soon!), and some websites address it explicitly, which helps (ex. an Indigenous clothing brand I saw yesterday has an FAQ page that says "yes, these items are made for everyone's wear, not just Indigenous folks").

Anyway, I'm working on a novel with diverse characters and I'm TERRIFIED that some of what I'm including could cause harm for readers of the various identities. I've taken a few workshops specifically about this (so glad they exist!), I'm reading tons of extra books on those backgrounds, and I'm paying for sensitivity readers for the different identities. Even still, there's a chance things will read as fine to one reader from that identity, but not from others. That is a risk I'm taking as a writer - scary!

All this to say that my position on this is that folks should be able to write about different identities, but if you're going to try to publish/profit from that work, it's fair to expect an approach that respects those cultures/identities, including doing extra research, interviews, hiring readers, etc. to make sure you're not causing harm. If you do none of that I think it's fine for readers to call out appropriation and look for another book on that topic written by someone who better represents that story.


Jenny (Reading Envy) (readingenvy) | 642 comments Lauren wrote: "With great hesitancy, I'll chime in on the appropriation conversation here, mainly because I think about this every day and it's important for the literary world to continue engaging in these conve..."

Lauren, I agree it is a difficult tension. I was just rereading Charlie Jane Anders' essay in progress about this topic:
https://www.tor.com/2020/10/06/never-...

And I'm a Patreon supporter of Monica Byrne, and she grappled with this a lot with her last book and hired several sensitivity readers for various specific elements.


Lauren Oertel | 1390 comments Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Lauren wrote: "With great hesitancy, I'll chime in on the appropriation conversation here, mainly because I think about this every day and it's important for the literary world to continue engaging..."

Fantastic essay - thanks so much for sharing that! This part especially stood out to me, "But I feel like this is always going to be messy, and ever-shifting, and contain exactly no straight lines, because we’re talking about human beings, and the complexities of history. You never get to be done trying to figure this stuff out."

I'll look up Monica Byrne as well. Thank you!


message 35: by Lark (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lark Benobi (larkbenobi) | 197 comments Lauren, I can tell you'll be fine. I think the key is to be thoughtful and to get a lot of support from in-community advisors just as you are doing.

My most recent novel was in the process of being edited at the same time as the American Dirt debacle, and it materially affected the editing, where my agent and editors asked me to take out every intimation of other-ness in my characters unless it was a fantastical sort of other-ness (bird people) OR unless I myself belonged to the minority group I was writing about.

It actually changed the novel a lot. Happily I like it better, though.

There are some things that are much easier to write well about "from within" a community than from the outside, not just about racial otherness, but also disability and gender otherness. It's especially important where a minority has been grossly misrepresented and misunderstood.

It was mind-expanding for me to see my first film written by a trans woman and acted by trans women (Lingua Franca dir. Isabel Sandoval, currently on Netflix). It's so completely different from The Crying Game or Boys Don't Cry or Dallas Buyer's Club.


Lauren Oertel | 1390 comments lark wrote: "Lauren, I can tell you'll be fine. I think the key is to be thoughtful and to get a lot of support from in-community advisors just as you are doing.

My most recent novel was in the process of bein..."


Oh, that's interesting. It seems sad that the diversity was taken out (I don't think that's the answer in general), but it sounds like the changes were right for your book, so I'm glad that worked out. Thanks for sharing that experience, and for the reminder to check in with you about when we'll be discussing that book! :) (I'll send you an email about that.)

And I'll add Lingua Franca to my list of things to watch - thank you for the recommendation!


message 37: by Tim (new)

Tim | 512 comments Risa wrote: "The "appropriation" debate is often very problematic to me. . ..."

Thanks Risa, nicely said!


message 38: by Risa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Risa (risa116) | 625 comments lark wrote: "Lauren, I can tell you'll be fine. I think the key is to be thoughtful and to get a lot of support from in-community advisors just as you are doing.

My most recent novel was in the process of bein..."


"take out every intimation of other-ness" - YIKES. That is exactly the sort of instruction that I fear.

Yes, by all means, strive for care in the rendering (as, frankly, one should want to do with every aspect of one's work). But to be told that some characters or traits are altogether off-limits unless the author either shares that character's background or places the character in a fantasy time or space? I shudder.

How much better to advise, "If you are writing realistic fiction, there is some work to do here to make character X more realistic." Or, as Lauren's instructor put it more colorfully -- "Write whatever you want - but don't f--- it up."

Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts. I will continue thinking about this.


message 39: by Lark (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lark Benobi (larkbenobi) | 197 comments Risa, in my case they were 100% right. My writing was being influenced by the miasma of the times, and I was adding unnecessary themes to my novel because of it. Maybe one of the links above links to the advice that if your book doesn't need it, then take it out.


Jenny (Reading Envy) (readingenvy) | 642 comments I just read a romance novel (The Matzah Ball) where the protagonist is Jewish and has a chronic illness, and the long author note in the back discussing her own experience with both was great, and I actually almost wish I'd read it first!


message 41: by Risa (last edited Oct 21, 2021 06:42AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Risa (risa116) | 625 comments lark wrote: "Risa, in my case they were 100% right. My writing was being influenced by the miasma of the times, and I was adding unnecessary themes to my novel because of it. Maybe one of the links above links ..."

That makes me feel better, Lark. If it is an editorial decision that that content was distracting from the main narrative focus then it is a good suggestion. And personal biography is, of course, a powerful source of fictive material. But it is not the only possible one. If an author can imagine an experience she's not lived, and has the empathy powers to render that imagined experience well, she should be permitted to "go there", and to take the rest of us with her.


Nadine in California (nadinekc) | 763 comments I'm thinking of so many books where I thought "Where is the editor?" when it seemed like there was a great book buried within a too-long book. I can't think of any titles off-hand, of course.....


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Lark Benobi (larkbenobi) | 197 comments Risa wrote: "But it is not the only possible one. If an author can imagine an experience she's not lived, and has the empathy powers to render that imagined experience well, she should be permitted to "go there", and to take the rest of us with her. ..."

Risa, the book I wrote before this current one has a team of six heroes who are all from backgrounds I don't share. It was impossible to write this particular story in any other way. It seems people were ok with it.

I agree with you that empathy, and carefulness, and a lot of sincere thinking about what you're doing and why, can avoid most of these misunderstandings.


Phyllis | 785 comments Nadine wrote: "I'm thinking of so many books where I thought "Where is the editor?" when it seemed like there was a great book buried within a too-long book. I can't think of any titles off-hand, of course....."
I really felt that way about Brandon Taylor's Real Life -- in fact I felt like almost all of the nematodes and tennis game and summer lake life should have been edited out, and some editor should have edited the dialogue to make it bear some resemblance to how people actually speak to each other..


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