Support for Indie Authors discussion

As some readers have trouble with long stretches of italics, is there another way to denote a flashback at the beginning of a scene?

It's possible to go with *** (or any fancy scene-break you use) followed by a "[X days/months/years ago]", then make sure to end the scene with a scene-break again. If you want to be totally sure, then ad "present time" at the first scene after the flashback.

Tomas wrote: "It's possible to go with *** (or any fancy scene-break you use) followed by a "[X days/months/years ago]", then make sure to end the scene with a scene-break again. If you want to be totally sure, ..."

That is an option...

Usually I will just introduce it in the text. "Not long ago, Bobby had a chance meeting with an old flame. They bumped elbows in a Starbucks and started chatting..."

Dwayne wrote: "Usually I will just introduce it in the text. "Not long ago, Bobby had a chance meeting with an old flame. They bumped elbows in a Starbucks and started chatting...""

I like that approach Dwayne :)

It gets tricky. You have to say, "Okay, here's a flashback" without saying, "Okay, here's a flashback" and sometimes the transitions feel a bit sudden, especially transitioning back the characters' present time. But, it can be worked out in the revisions / rewrites / editing part of the process.

Dwayne wrote: "It gets tricky. You have to say, "Okay, here's a flashback" without saying, "Okay, here's a flashback" and sometimes the transitions feel a bit sudden, especially transitioning back the characters'..."

Is where I'm at right now - revisions :)

Wouldn't you also have to make sure that each of the flashback sentences were written in past tense? So, more like "Not long ago, Bobby had a chance meeting with an old flame. They had bumped elbows in a Starbucks and had started chatting..." I've used that technique, Dwayne, and got a little caught up making sure that all the verbs were in their proper tense. I think that's correct? If so, it can be done like you said, and smoothly pull the reader back in time, then to the present again.

Gail wrote: "Wouldn't you also have to make sure that each of the flashback sentences were written in past tense? So, more like "Not long ago, Bobby had a chance meeting with an old flame. They had bumped elbow..."

But if the whole book is past tense, could be dicey.

I'm not sure I understand, Eldon. Why would you write an entire book in past tense? All of my books are historical fiction so they all take place in the past. Yet, they are written in the present tense...unless there is a brief flashback scene, prior to the story's time frame. I was just making a point that an entire flashback should be written in past tense...I may be wrong about that. I am certainly no expert.

Dwayne wrote: "You have to say, "Okay, here's a flashback" without saying, "Okay, here's a flashback" and sometimes the transitions feel a bit sudden..."

Well, as a reader, I don't mind being explicitly told that a scene is a flashback...

Gail wrote: "Why would you write an entire book in past tense?"

Aren't most (apart from dialogue)? 3rd person past tense feels the most natural to read to me.

Okay, good point, Tomas. Since Eldon was initially asking about flashbacks, even in 3rd person past tense stories, wouldn't a flashback need to reflect a time prior to that? So, instead of 'He walked into a room' (3rd person past tense), a flashback would state, 'He had walked into a room'?

Here’s how I did it.

“Agate’ closed her eyes remembering a time over a century ago. She was now in her bedroom, just a few blocks in distance, but many years in time and location from here.”

Gail wrote: "Sorry I budged in here. I was focused on flashbacks and just trying to help."

No need to apologize Gail :) I think most books use past tense (said as opposed to says). Some good discussion here!!

Jeffrey wrote: "Here’s how I did it.

“Agate’ closed her eyes remembering a time over a century ago. She was now in her bedroom, just a few blocks in distance, but many years in time and location from here.”"

Very clear Jeffrey :)

Gail wrote: "Wouldn't you also have to make sure that each of the flashback sentences were written in past tense?"

I seldom write in present tense, anyway, so it's not been an issue. "Bumped" and "started" are already in past tense. I try not to stick "had" in there more than necessary. To be grammatically correct, yeah, it would need at least one "had" in there. I don't worry about perfect grammar in fiction writing.

Gail wrote: "Okay, good point, Tomas. Since Eldon was initially asking about flashbacks, even in 3rd person past tense stories, wouldn't a flashback need to reflect a time prior to that? So, instead of 'He walked into a room' (3rd person past tense), a flashback would state, 'He had walked into a room'?"

Depends. It might, but I believe many people use normal past tense, and that's okay if the flashback is clear (often just full cursive with normal font where a cursive would be otherwise).

Eldon wrote: "Gail wrote: "Sorry I budged in here. I was focused on flashbacks and just trying to help."

No need to apologize Gail :) I think most books use past tense (said as opposed to says). Some good discu..."

Thanks, Eldon, and I agree, but that's where my point was lost. I was speaking specifically about using flashbacks within a scene, not basic usage of past or present tense. Over and out.

Gail wrote: "...wouldn't a flashback need to reflect a time prior to that?"

The phrase "Not long ago" should be enough to indicate that we're about to go further into the past.

Dwayne wrote: "Gail wrote: "Wouldn't you also have to make sure that each of the flashback sentences were written in past tense?"

I seldom write in present tense, anyway, so it's not been an issue. "Bumped" and ..."

And there lies the crux, Dwayne...I'm older and the darn grammatically correct "had" was drilled into my head:) Have a good day, guys.

Thank you Eldo.

I doubt you're older than me, Gail. But, yeah, I hear ya. I had to learn not to worry about grammar. It helped when many of my literary heroes broke grammatical rules left and right.

Dwayne wrote: "I doubt you're older than me, Gail. But, yeah, I hear ya. I had to learn not to worry about grammar. It helped when many of my literary heroes broke grammatical rules left and right."

Grammar only applies to those who are not famous. Those who are, get a pass ;)

Fame has nothing to do with it. It's the difference between writing something formal and stiff vs. writing something casual and entertaining. A lot of books I've read on writing stated perfect and proper grammar is not necessary in fiction writing. It was discussed in my college writing courses and Writer's Digest has done articles about it. Even in my high school writing course the teacher forgave a number of grammatical mistakes, as long as the story was interesting and the meaning was clear enough.

This isn't to say all writers need to be loose and casual with grammar. We can determine how rigid or how carefree we want to be. As long as the meaning of our words isn't lost when the grammar becomes too loose, it's all good.

There seems to be a misunderstanding as to what a fashback is. In fiction, a flashback is a scene that takes place before a story begins. Note the word, "scene." So it’s live action, and no more told in past tense than any other scene in the story. Presenting it as summation is an info-dump...something to be avoided.

Here’s what Dwight Swain has to say on flashbacks, from his, Techniques of the Selling Writer:
- - - - - -
Flashback is somebody remembering in the present what happened in the past. It brings your story, your present action, to a dead halt for the duration.

Now there’s a place for this kind of thing, upon occasion. But that place is not within a scene.

Why not?

(a) It’s essentially unrealistic.

Most of us, when were in conflict, are far too involved with keeping our heads above water to indulge in any great amount of reverie.

(b) It strains reader patience badly.

When you write a story, you try to sweep your reader along with you on a rising wave of tension. Particularly is this true in those units of struggle we call scenes.

Go into flashback, and tension tends to drop to zero.

Why?

Because you’ve halted forward movement and present action, and your reader knows that what’s already past just can’t be changed.

Then, when you return to the present, you have to start building excitement again from scratch.

Are these grounds enough to warrant your keeping past history out of your scenes?

For my money, yes—especially since flashbacks fit more neatly into sequel anyhow.
(Note: He’s talking about Scene and Sequel technique of scene construction here, not a follow-on story)

(3) Don’t accidentally summarize.

Actually, you do summarize even in scene, of course. The fact that your heroine absent-mindedly picks her nose in an embrace doesn’t necessarily demand mention, nor is its exclusion missed.

On the other hand, there are certain slips that sneak into everyone’s copy, at one time or another. They’re dangerous. They jar readers. They crack or shatter story illusion.
No one can ever hope to make a complete list of such, of course. But here are a few samples of the kind of thing to watch out for:

(a) “He told her that—”

This is indirect discourse—a paraphrasing and summarizing of the actual words spoken. Run from it! What you want is speech—the genuine article, down to the last slur and contraction.

(b) “He hunted for the elevator without success:”

That’s what you tell me, anyhow. But I’d rather see what happened:

Definitely hurrying now, he loped down the corridor to the left.

Still no elevator. Not even a fire stairs . . .

. . . and so on. Step by step and blow by blow. After all, that’s how your character lived it.

(c) “Time passed:”

Then skip to where things start to happen.

(d) “They had a couple of drinks:”

Why not

“Beer here,” grunted Paul.
Laird considered for a moment. “Make mine rye and water,” he said finally.

The thing to bear in mind is that nothing ever really comes alive in summary. Life is lived moment by moment, in Technicolor detail. To capture it on paper, you have to break behavior down into precise and pertinent fragments of motivation and response.
- - - - -

Flashbacks can be short or a whole scene depending on what you are telling. You need to give a clear indication that what comes next is a flashback. When done, you need to make it clear you are back in the present story.

Flashbacks are not separated from the main story by anything other than a few words indicating this is a memory. Do not use italics. Keep flashbacks to a minimum unless you are bouncing back and forth in chapters from the past to the present which can work if you make sure your reader knows whether they are in the past or present.

A flashback is written in present tense with the lead in to the flashback and the get out of the flashback indicators.

I just finished reading Andy Weir's "Project Hail Mary" -- he's the guy who wrote "The Martian." Anyway, Hail Mary is full of flashbacks which are done as chapters. I found it interesting because there are no segues and the first few words can seem jarring but, as a reader, you quickly catch on to it. The main way you know it's flashback is that there is always a setting or character cue, early on. In the case of Hail Mary, it does help that, in the present, our character is pretty much alone in space and the flashbacks are on earth, but I still think the setting and character cues can be enough to introduce a flashback. Setting it aside as a chapter, also helped.
I should also mention that all the flashbacks were written in present tense.

William wrote: "I just finished reading Andy Weir's "Project Hail Mary" -- he's the guy who wrote "The Martian." Anyway, Hail Mary is full of flashbacks which are done as chapters. I found it interesting because t..."

Excellent points William!! Thanks :) By the way, is Hail Mary good? It's on my TBR pile.

Eldon wrote: "William wrote: "I just finished reading Andy Weir's "Project Hail Mary" -- he's the guy who wrote "The Martian." Anyway, Hail Mary is full of flashbacks which are done as chapters. I found it inter..."

I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's filled with scientific puzzles which were above my ability to solve, but I enjoyed watching the protagonist untangle the threads of his predicament. Everything is very clearly explained. I'm a sucker for the guy-wakes-up-in-mysterious-circumstances-in-space kind of scenario, but I think this book would appeal to most sci-fi buffs.

William wrote: "Eldon wrote: "William wrote: "I just finished reading Andy Weir's "Project Hail Mary" -- he's the guy who wrote "The Martian." Anyway, Hail Mary is full of flashbacks which are done as chapters. I ..."

Awesome!!

Jay wrote: "There seems to be a misunderstanding as to what a fashback is. In fiction, a flashback is a scene that takes place before a story begins. Note the word, "scene." So it’s live action, and no more to..."

I write nonfiction, but I have learned a lot from Dwight V. Swain.

I usually mention the year in italics at the beginning of the chapter. Or if the flashback is in the middle of a chapter I still put the year in italics. Also, I do way too many flashbacks now that I think about it lol