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Developmental Editor - Should You Hire One/Where/How/Who?
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I understand why some people would want a developmental editor, but personally I lean towards the belief that a good team of skilled beta readers and a comprehensive editor are all an author needs. Developmental editors help with developmental issues, but they do not replace the need for an editor later on. If you can afford to hire both, then a developmental editor would be a great choice, but if you can only hire one editor then I would suggest going with a comprehensive editor. Comprehensive editors do some developmental work, but developmental editors are not by any means (and are not supposed to be) comprehensive.I have never met developmental editor Lara Clouden or communicated with her in any way, but for years I have comprehensively edited books that she developmentally edited first. The stories were well formed and well fleshed out. The writer who we both worked for speaks highly of her.
I am an affordable comprehensive editor and beta reader, but I usually only edit clean books, or at least relatively clean books. Writer's Digest has given my editing five stars. You can message me through Goodreads for more details.
I hope this was of some help to you.
I can't afford the $2000 for a developmental editor. But I did find a solution. Fictionary. It is a program based on the Story Grid. I find that it shows me where my story is weak, doesn't hit the right notes at the points needed and it also helps with revisions. Because I have a tendency to not have enough conflict, I got Janice Hardy's book Understanding Conflict. It's a great reference no matter what genre you write in. With those in hand and a good understanding of the story grid, I'm finding it easier to revise my WIP to where I have no plot holes and good conflict, and setting detail, goals, stakes, etc. The program is a lot cheaper than a developmental editor and the learning curve isn't that steep if you go through the 38 points for editing by Factionary. (free on YouTube).
Beta readers are invaluable, but mostly for a, “This worked for me,” or, “It didn’t.” As Sol Stein put it: “Readers don’t notice point-of-view errors. They simply sense that the writing is bad.”Editors too are invaluable…if they have experience in the industry, have edited work that actually succeeded, and did so in your genre. An editor who worked in the male adventure field, for example, when presented with a well written romance manuscript will turn a few pages, then scream, “Are you out of your mind?” The norms of every genre can be very different.
Far too many of those I see claiming to be an editor are, in reality, failed writers, whose advice is to make the same errors in presentation that caused them to fail.
In short, it’s a mine-field out there. Ernest Hemingway put it best when he said, “They can’t yank a novelist the way they can a pitcher. A novelist has to go the full nine, even if it kills him.” So, the best way to be certain you have a good editor is to become one, yourself.
The problem with a developmental editor, aside from the significant cost of a competent one, is that they presuppose that you're writing on a professional level, and will aim to help you shape the novel to better engage the reader, not teach you how to write. So, for example, if you’re telling the story in the voice of the narrator, rather than placing the reader into the scene as the protagonist, and in real-time, a developmental editor is overkill.
I took a look at your work, as it stands today, and you write well. But I think I have a simpler, and far less expensive solution than a developmental editor. Do a search for, Writing the Perfect Scene, by Randy Ingermanson. In it he provides a great explanation of a scene’s structure, plus, a simplified explanation of a powerful Motivation-Response technique that can make the situation seem so real to the reader that if someone throws a rock at your protagonist the reader will duck. Give it a look. And if it makes sense, you might look into the book that he took it from.
Hope this helps.
B.A. wrote: "I can't afford the $2000 for a developmental editor. But I did find a solution. Fictionary. It is a program based on the Story Grid. I find that it shows me where my story is weak, doesn't hit the ..."Not all developmental editors cost that much. There are even many comprehensive editors who charge less than a quarter of that (including myself). If you want Kirkus or another huge name in the editing industry to edit a book for you, then expect it to be about that expensive. Otherwise, it's not as bad as most people think.
My personal experience with computer programs doing your editing for you has been very disappointing. I have not tried Fictionary, but I have doubts as to how good it is compared to an experienced editor. Then again, perhaps this one is different and the technology has improved.
Jay wrote: "Editors too are invaluable…if they have experience in the industry, have edited work that actually succeeded, and did so in your genre. An editor who worked in the male adventure field, for example, when presented with a well written romance manuscript will turn a few pages, then scream, “Are you out of your mind?” The norms of every genre can be very different..."
This is an over-generalization. The fact is, if an editor cannot adapt from one genre to another, they are very poor at their job and should probably not be an editor in the first place. Genres cross-over all of the time, and an editor should be able to know instinctively what is best for the type of book they are editing.
However, I agree with your insinuation that there are a vast amount of people out there claiming to be editors, and very few who are truly good at their job. The glut of would-be editors has grown substantially over the past year or so, with more and more people seeking stay-at-home jobs. That does not mean there are not good, affordable editors still out there. The best way I've found to separate the wheat from the chaff in this regard is to first, talk to them and see how "gooder there grammer; and punctualization" [sic] really is. You'd be surprised. Next, if they pass that test, read a book or story that they edited. Like what you see? Then the editor is probably for real and would most likely be a good investment for the future of your book.
I'd like to reiterate that I am not a developmental editor, nor do I usually prefer to edit contemporary romances unless they are relatively "clean". In other words, I have no dog in this race, I'm just hoping that my insight into the profession of editing can be helpful. :-)
I found a great developmental editor on upworks site. I did beta readers but couldn't get most of them to respond with anything actionable. I recommend a professional for a professional result. If you can't afford a developmental editor, beta readers is a hard road.
Reedsy offers developmental editing and even if you don't hire them, their info about developmental editing/assessments is definitely worth reading.
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My experience would say it's the opposite. But I guess it comes down to each individual beta reader. Maybe I was lucky...
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My experience would say it's the opposite. But I guess it comes down to each individual beta reader. Maybe I was lucky..."
I would agree with you Tomas. I've had no issues noticing point of view errors when I come across them reading.
I can't afford the cost of a developmental editor which is why I use a series of beta readers as I step through the numerous drafts of my novels (typically six). Some will point out plot holes or weaknesses, some will point out POV issues, and some will catch wording issues and typos. Every reader will "see" different types of things, which is why I think it's best to have multiple people review the drafts.There is a professional author/editor who lives near me who offers to do a developmental edit at at cost of $475 plus $3.75 per page. She's very good, but that's too expensive for me. Fortunately, she offered a free half-hour session to writers at our local library and I took advantage of that. She read the first several pages of my book and then asked me to tell her what happened in the rest of the book.
My book was about someone who was questioning all of the key choices he'd made in his life and was told in a series of flashbacks to those key moments. She made two key suggestions. One was to get into the story later (basically chopped out the first chapter of the book) and the second suggestion was that I needed something going on (i.e. a conflict) in the present time, in addition to the parts of the story told as flashbacks. Those two suggestions improved my book dramatically.
Some universities/libraries offer "writer in residence" programs which can be quite valuable. They can sometimes find things in a half-hour session rather than paying the high cost of a developmental edit.
Tomas said: " Maybe I was lucky..."Making no comments on the writing, my question is; Did that novel sell well? Because if the beta readers loved it and it didn't...
Ben Bova once visited my son's school, where Mike was the editor of their sci-fi magazine. He made a comment that made a lot of sense: "Most beta readers know you, and how you speak. So they hear your voice as they read. More then that, because they know you, and have a relationship with you, they'll be kind. So give your work to someone who dislikes you. If they like it, you may have something,"
Mod
Putting the question to you, Jay. Did your novel sell well after following your own advice?
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There are a number of reasons a novel might not sell well. Even a perfectly written novel, assuming such an animal will ever exist, might not sell well. So, if a novel isn't selling, it's not likely because a beta reader missed a point-of-view error.
• Jay. Did your novel sell well after following your own advice?I don't use Beta readers. But while I'm not getting rich, and I've made most of my work Free on Smashwords, I'm making tens of dollars for my published work. 😆
• There are a number of reasons a novel might not sell well. Only one that I know of: readers weren't hooked by the writing.
• it's not likely because a beta reader missed a point-of-view error.
You missed the point: Beta readers can't tell you what was wrong, only it didn't draw them in, plus what a non-writer thinks was the reason for that. Fully 75% of what's submitted to publishers is rejected on page one because, in their words, it's unreadable. Did the writers beta readers not tell them that?
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This is demonstrably wrong Jay. For it to be true you assume the perspective reader even saw the book. Given the Amazon environment, most books go unseen whether poorly written or exceptionally written.
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Sounds like a winner Charlie!!
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The book's cover isn't interesting enough.
The book is buried behind the millions of other books out there.
The author is pretty much unknown.
The blurb isn't interesting enough.
The price is too high.
The reader isn't interested in the genre.
There is too much violence.
There is not enough violence.
There is too much swearing.
There is too much sex.
A dog gets run over in the first sentence.
The book is too long.
The book is too short.
The main character has the same first name as the reader's ex-wife.
"Beta readers can't tell you what was wrong, only it didn't draw them in, plus what a non-writer thinks was the reason for that."
Seems doubtful. Yes, I could see some readers saying, "I dunno. I just don't like it." But most people, whether they are writers or not, can tell you why they didn't like something.
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The book's cover isn't interesting enough.
The book is buried behind the millions of other books out there.
The author ..."
Excellent points Dwayne!
I don't buy books that have a blah blurb that reads like all the other blurbs out there. Or maybe it is in a genre that doesn't interest me. I started a book recently and the book just wasn't my cup of tea. It was okay, but for me, I just didn't like the subject and the way it was put together so I'll never finish the book. Other books were not as well written that I blow through in a few days because of the subject matter and the they grabbed my attention. It is all about the character I can relate to doing things that grab my attention and the genre isn't a consideration since I read everything from literary to children's book.
Eldon said: Given the Amazon environment, most books go unseen whether poorly written or exceptionally written.On average, every book that appears on the new listings list has the same chance of being looked at. Selling depends on the writing hooking the reader quickly. As Sol Stein put it: “A novel is like a car—it won’t go anywhere until you turn on the engine. The “engine” of both fiction and nonfiction is the point at which the reader makes the decision not to put the book down. The engine should start in the first three pages, the closer to the top of page one the better.”
Dwain said: The book is buried behind the millions of other books out there.
See above. And that aside, if you just released book 3 and still not having success, the place to look is at the writing, and ask yourself, “What do the pros know that I don’t?” Being self-published doesn’t absolve us from the necessity of writing on a professional level. They are our competition, after all.
Dwain said: But most people, whether they are writers or not, can tell you why they didn't like something.
No, they can’t. They can tell you that they didn’t like it, or say something like, “I couldn’t get into it.” They’ll even tell you what they think is the reason. But, will a beta reader tell you there are POV breaks? Hell no.
Nor will a beta tell you that the only character on stage is the narrator, because you’re transcribing yourself telling the story aloud. Readers don’t know why that can’t work. In fact, about half of new writers fall into that trap (the other half write what reads like a report).
If a story isn’t selling, it’s not because the cover’s not perfect. It’s because the writing isn’t.
Talk to ten of your neighbors—your potential beta-readers—and you’ll be lucky to find even one who knows that the writing techniques we’re given in school are 100% nonfiction skills and cannot be made to work for fiction.
How can a beta tell you there’s no short-term scene-goal, or no inciting incident? Have they ever even heard of “scene and sequel?” Will any of them know why, “Susan smiled when Kenny came through the door,” should be avoided? No.
Beta readers are invaluable, but they cannot tell you what’s wrong.
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I'm shaking my head over here Jay. I admire your conviction to your own point of view, but lets get real here. There is absolutely no way a book you put out - or I put out - has anywhere near the same chance of being seen as one put out by Stephen King or Michael Connelly or insert whatever name you like. Visibility doesn't start with the quality of the writing. It ends there.
Having your book seen is a combination of many factors, of which, a professional cover is most definitely near the top. A great cover never sells a book, but a poor cover costs you a sale every time. If an author isn't professional enough to pay attention to covers, blurbs, and bios, what is there to suggest to a reader that they're professional in their writing?
But honestly, I think this thread has run on long enough. You've had your say, and others have had theirs. Let's leave it there and have a good night.
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The thing is, Jenny Fields, the mother, was fortunate enough to write a book that struck a nerve in a number of people, enough to make her world famous, enough to eventually get her assassinated. (Oops. Spoiler.)
I have always believed there is a great deal of truth in this. I've spent a great number of years studying the art of writing. Despite what you so condescendingly suggest, Jay, I do know how to write. I have studied "the pros". Just knowing how to write is not going to guarantee any of us success. It's a great help, yes, but it's not a guarantee.
Many believe the novels of E. L. James are poorly written. Yet, she's had some sales here and there. I recently read the novel MASH. I found the writing to be sophomoric and bland. Yet, the book inspired a major motion picture and a very popular TV series.
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Very true Dwayne. There are no guarantees for any of us. I've read exceptional novels that didn't sell well, and horrible novels that made the bestseller list. Luck, plays more of a role than any of us care to admit.
Dwayne, you are so correct. There is that little thing that some novels have which draw people in (think 50 Shades of Gray) It doesn't have to be perfectly written other than the characters and the little niggling things that draw people into reading it. I don't pretend to know everything about writing. In fact, I'm still learning a whole lot about what makes a good book. It isn't the prose. You may have beautiful prose (like the one that I quite reading) and still not sell well.
The story must hit all the plot points and hit them hard. The characters must draw the reader in and holed them there. The story itself needs to be something they can relate to eve if it's set in middle earth or outer space of under the ocean.
If you analyze all the best sellers, you'd find very similar things that drew readers into the created world and kept them there even if it wasn't all that well written. You may have the best prose out there, but if your characters and the situation doesn't draw readers into the story, you'll not make that best seller list unless you buy it--a $20,000 expenditure that gives you one book which ends up tanking with a lot of failures after it.
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Hey. I messed up in my message above. I meant to allude to Fifty Shades but could not recall the author and did a Google search. It came up with Cynthia Weil. After reading your comment, I thought, "Y'know, Cynthia Weil doesn't sound right." So, I checked again. Apparently she wrote a song called Shades of Gray.
Apologies to Ms. Weil. I'm sure your song is nice. I've never heard it. I made the correction a moment ago.
But, yes, B.A., there is a lot more that goes into a book than learning how the pros write. That is important, of course, but it's not the only cog in the machine.
Eldon said: There is absolutely no way a book you put out - or I put out - has anywhere near the same chance of being seen as one put out by Stephen King or Michael Connelly or insert whatever name you like. The discussion is on low sales, not a place on the best-seller list. Something on the “new fiction” list with a competent blurb will get your page viewers. And if someone does look it’s the quality of the writing that determines if it sells.
It’s not a matter of genre, because there are fans of all. And they don’t get to the page of they don’t like yours.
It’s not a matter of plot because the average reader makes a “buy or say no” decision in three pages or less, and how much plot is there in three pages?
So, if you’re not getting sales you’re not hooking the readers in those three pages, while others are. It really is that simple.
For those going the conventional route and submitting to agent/publishers, the rejection rate is a whopping 99.9%. It’s not because of bias, or meaningless rules. It’s because those submissions would be rejected in the bookstore.
Why? Because fully 75% are from honest, hard-working writers who have taken no steps to learn the skills and techniques of the profession. Why not? Because they don’t know it’s required. No one told them that the only writing techniques we’re given in school are those that prepare us for the kind of writing employers need from us: Letters, papers, and reports. Professional skills, like those of medicine, plumbing, and Fiction-Writing, are acquired in addition to them.
And before I retired, and closed my manuscript critiquing service, about 75% of what I received was written with high school writing skills.
And of the rest, only 3% are seen as writing on a professional level. And how in the hell are we going to sell our work to people who are used to, and expect, professional quality writing if we don’t take the time to learn how to provide it?
I’m sorry this was so long, but it is endlessly frustrating to watch people focusing on editing services, and promotion, as a cure for poor sales, when a look at their work shows that it’s a transcription of them telling the story aloud, when they do a kangaroo head-hop from character to character, and never give us anyone to be our avatar. It is especially frustrating because it’s so easily fixable. But because the story always works for the author, and we won’t address the problem we don’t see as being one…
On a side note to Dwain: Are the site managers ever going to fix the problem where the new paragraph marks are stripped out in the email synopsis that's sent to members?
Mod
I tire of this discussion, Jay. The discussion is not about sales. It's about being "seen". A precursor to sales. If you wish to continue with the misguided belief that Amazon treats every release the same way, then feel free.
For those of us here who wish to succeed, we'll continue to focus on covers, blurbs, marketing, and yes, craft.
Have a good day.
Eldon wrote: "Jay wrote: "Eldon said: There is absolutely no way a book you put out - or I put out - has anywhere near the same chance of being seen as one put out by Stephen King or Michael Connelly or insert w..."Not to beat a dead horse discussion, but I'm in full agreement Eldon.
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Thanks Gail :)
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Yes. There are fans of all genres. However, not all fans are the same. Humor and general fiction, the two genres I enjoy writing the most, have the hardest fans to gain attention from. Humor fans generally want books by people who are already famous and general fiction fans tend to stick with writers they already know or ones recommended by critics or friends.
If I have something out side by side on Amazon with Scott Adams latest Dilbert treasury, 99 times out of 100, humor fans are going to grab Dilbert.
Perhaps in other genres, all books are seen as equal until the writing is sampled, but certainly not these genres.
A side note to Jai: I'm changing the spelling of your name, too. And I don't have any communication with the "site managers".
It is frustrating when you can't get traction which is the reason you don't want to go head to head with a well known author and is why, as a new author, you find a niche category for your book if possible. Even with that, and advertising and publicity, if you don't get reviews, you don't get seen. That is the way of Amazon and all the other book sellers. How do you get the reader to look at your book? ARC copies only work if they read them and then put in the review. Giving it away for free or putting it in KU can help in getting readers but the bottom line is that if you want to make money, you need to have a stellar product.
Prose isn't what will sell that book. It that character you put on the page and the situations you put them in and you have 1-3 pages to convince that reader to keep reading. But--and here is the caveat--if you don't hold their attention, they will quite reading it and skip over any future books your write.
I mentioned it before, but that blurb that is rehash of all the others in the genre will not get me to read your book. It has to have something 'different' in it. And yes, that cover and title do mean something in getting noticed. For me, it's the title of the book. It can be a name, or something catchy or just different. The blurb will then make or break the sale so you need to bring out the part that will grab my attention.
I've discovered that your time needs to be spent in learning how to write. That includes developing characters you can't forget even if you can't remember their names, you remember them. or the situation they were in, or how they overcame a problem or how they solved something. if no one can relate to your character, it will languish at the bottom no matter how good the cover is, or the blurb, or the fancy prose, the plot twist you did that few get to read because of that main character and all the others in the book don't hold their attention. Unless it's and action book, the MC needs to stand out and grab your reader.
So you want to be seen, then make those characters come alive--all of them. That's the reason 50 Shades of Gray made it to the NYT best seller list---it was the characters in a fresh story that hit all the right notes--not the prose which wasn't all that great. It made it by word of mouth, not mass marketing. Where the Crawdads Sing, hit all the right notes with a memorable heroine and good writing what was well researched.
I will say, that I read enough bad writing that I've gotten so that if the book doesn't pull me in by the end of the first few chapters, I delete it and move on to the next and don't even bother to do a review. I work a lot besides writing, and I don't have time to slog through a boring book with multiple mistakes, boring situations and a major lack of emotion or even a reason to care about the MC be they male or female..
S. wrote: "I understand why some people would want a developmental editor, but personally I lean towards the belief that a good team of skilled beta readers and a comprehensive editor are all an author needs...."I am looking for a developmental editor for my narrative nf book which has court transcript on every page. Can you help?
I use Fictionary and Autocrit. Fictionary is a great developmental editor program. You are doing the work, but it does point out your shortcomings, and if you have all the plot points in the right places, etc. They also have editors there that can look at the book. I'm not sure what they charge, but the program is good. Another place for learning how to edit is connected to Jessica Brody of Save the Cat Writes a Novel fame. Her writing mastery classes, especially the revision on are excellent and it is on a subscription, so you can use it and cancel until you need it again.
I you want that developmental editor, expect to pay anywhere from $2000 to $3000. The Editorial Department is a group of editors based in Tuscson, AZ. They are excellent with a lot of experience. I'm not sure what they charge, so you would need to contact them.
N.L. wrote: "As an indie author, with no guarantee of a monetary return, did you invest in a developmental editor? Development editing is expensive, but another option is a story edit (also called a manuscript review, story review, and so on). If the review is detailed enough, it will provide you with a good analysis of the work's strengths and weaknesses (and your strengths and weaknesses as a writer), examples of how to fix problems, and advice on how to proceed with the work.
When looking for a review editor, avoid anyone who provides only a page or two at most; this will offer you no more than a superficial evaluation. I have written story edits that are 25 pages long (the more issues, the longer the review). Oftentimes I have had the author come back to me to say I hit on issues that were nagging them, and hearing it from me gave them the confidence to listen to their own inner critic without constantly second-guessing themselves.
So this is another option you can explore.
If so, where did you find your editor and what was your experience?
I write contemporary romance and would love to find a developmental editor specializing in my genre. hit me up with some recommendations if you have them.
I had betas offer feedback on my ms, but wouldn't a pair of professional eyes be advantageous, especially for high level structural feedback??