Support for Indie Authors discussion

Hay, guys?

I was just curious about something . 1st, I have to confes I spend a lot of time on facebook. to much, in fact. I seen a lot of people making spelling and grammer mistakes and than when someone corrects it, the some one always gets chastised by they're peers for beingthe "grammar police" or some similar term. Depending on my mood, the poster, how much time I have to wound, my mood, ect. i sometimes put on my grammar police badge and sometimes I don't.

Wondering how many? Because maybe are writers worst grammer police or are we most of us above that kind of think.

Hello.

Lol Dwane. I get pretty irked when I see horrible grammar in the professional world, and a little annoyed on FB too, but I probably have that badge at work, because I feel the way people’s information (addresses, employers, emergency contacts etc) is written reflects the employer as a whole. I literally have logs of mistakes that I give the managers (including major spelling errors and unprofessional writing of people’s information), because I think it’s important to write in professional format when it’s customers information (especially when they can see it). I’m pretty sure the perpetrators all hate it lol. But this is literally the kind of things I see. No exaggeration. Some of them are so bad it’s embarrassing.

Pretend person and information:

sally walters
123 hollow ave apt 123
sonoma, ca 43846

Employer:

johnsons pharmacuticals



Emergency Contact:

jon berry

In a professional setting, I agree that poor spelling and grammar reflect poorly on the company. If I'm involved in preparing or reviewing a presentation or communication I will point out mistakes. If I see something that's already been sent out, then IMO there's little point by that stage, the damage has been done.

However on social media I don't think policing grammar is expected. It's informal, like speech, so correcting SPaG just for the sake of it is kinda missing the point.

This distinction is evident on the online critique site I belong to. When you put up work to be critiqued then mistakes are fair game. But when people post in the discussion forums associated with the site (similar to the discussion groups here) people occasionally nitpick SPaG and usually get taken to task for it.

Ian, I agree.

I guess I should add that it does annoy me when I see poor writing. Maybe I'm showing my age, but it makes me wonder what we're teaching people these days :)

I always thought basic literacy and numeracy, as well as critical thinking, were foundational to a free and fair society, so the standards on show today make me despair.

But there is a difference between noticing, and policing. If a discussion is worth engaging in, then it's more fruitful to engage in the issue at hand, not the writing.

Proofreading was part of my job for 14 years, so it's a tough habit to shake - I just want to correct it all! However, I try to let it go when it's just social media or similar. It does irk me to see sloppy SPaG on anything official and/or from a company though. When it's your job, you should be trying harder, IMO.

Ian, seeing writing today, in both the professional world, and simply in general, actually frightens me quite a bit lol. Despair doesn’t even begin to describe how I feel about the seeming fall of writing comprehension. And this is coming from someone with awful spelling and not the greatest grammar! There seemings to be this general consensus that spelling and grammar isn’t important anymore. I mean, for me to have to address it constantly in a professional setting is unnerving. Just my feelings.

Deleted by Leona

Dwayne, Review the Grammer and spelling in what you wrote, or was it to make your point?

I ignored most of the spelling errors and grammar errors when I was on FB. When you are typing something, it's easy to have typos that you don't catch until much later.

I loved your messed up post. You don't write like that and I know it, but it does point out what you are saying. It's not my job to be the grammar police unless it's a book or something someone has given me to read for critique/correction.

Yeah, after writing and proofreading my 180k (well over 200k in early drafts) manuscript, I can easily spot some mistakes - as someone who isn't native in English...

...but I don't pull out my grammar police badge unless the post is completely undecipherable for me.

That said, I'm more used to the "grammar nazi" term than "grammar police".

I recently reviewed a book on Amazon that had very little editing. I liked the story but all the significant spelling and grammar errors were distracting and I felt the need to put that constructively into my review. I feel it’s important that published books are edited. That’s part of the reader satisfaction. I always feel bad when I do feel the need to critique another author’s editing, but again, in the professional world, I feel it is important.

JAKe wrote: "Dwayne, Review the Grammer and spelling in what you wrote, or was it to make your point?"

It was meant to be funny. This is the fun folder. I am seriously curious what people have to say about it, but I'm trying to have some fun, too.

Ha ha?

I've been reading your responses. I'll get back into the conversation in a couple of days. I just wanted to see some responses, first.

I am commenting now because some of you are talking about the professional arena. Don't even get me started on the headaches there. Some of you might know, outside of this writer gig I also work as a human services supervisor for a company that houses dependent adults. There is tons of documentation and tons of texting and emails and so on. It's painful to try to read some of the documentation. Some of our employees are not native to the US and speak English as a second or third language. I can forgive their mistakes a bit easier as, hell, I barely speak any other languages myself. But, the ones who grew up speaking and writing English since childhood? Yeah, it's painful.

I agree, Dwayne. The professional arena is a total headache. After reading a few self-published books that were worse than what I wrote as a ten year old, it says a lot about our state of education. Then there are the lazy ones who say--I don't worry about editing. My readers let me know about my mistakes--then they wonder why their books don't sell or they only get 4-5 pages read on Amazon.

It is really funny when these people can't even type a complete sentence without major errors and then wonder why others scoff at what they wrote.

I have to admit, I've corrected spelling and grammar on social media and gotten flamed for it. Nowadays, I try to hold back. The other day, I posted something on Facebook with a typo in it. I'd shared it four times before I noticed the typo. So I had to go and edit my original post and all the shares. I couldn't leave it like that. It's part professional pride and part stubbornness. I'm a writer, so I don't want to represent myself badly, not even on a casual social media post.

I worked as a legal secretary for many years. Accuracy was of paramount importance in legal documents. Myself and my fellow secretaries and paralegals used to cross-check each other's work to eliminate typos and make sure it was legally accurate too.

Leah, I agree. I don't think some writers understand that Grammer is important for the overall understanding of what they have written. Leaving a comma out, phrasing in a particular way, can change the whole context of what is truly meant to be conveyed.
Even if a writer hires an editor, it is best to read what the editor has changed so as to make sure the meaning and intent of the author is intact.

Leah wrote: "I recently reviewed a book on Amazon that had very little editing. I liked the story but all the significant spelling and grammar errors were distracting and I felt the need to put that constructiv..."

Like you, I will point out that they needed to edit the book. If I stop before I finish the book, I will give that book a low review and then say why. Usually it's for editing, but I've read a few that were on the level of a 5th grader in how it was written. Those I find are the worst to leave a review on because I don't know the education level or anything about the author or if it is a first book, etc. For those, I recommend a critique group and developing a thick skin while learning how to write better.

I still have difficulty with those who don't think they need an editor then get upset when the review says the book was riddled with typos, misspellings, wrong word usage, mixed up sentences, left out parts of a scene, in general, the book is like a first draft thrown up there when they finished it. Then they wonder why indie authors are not as respected as the traditionally published authors. It's simple--too many don't care about the quality of their work.

Replying to Leah, Jake and BA - It's a pity that self-publishing has such a dreadful reputation. There are many self-published authors (including myself) who take professional pride in polishing our scripts and putting out good quality products.

I hope that one day the stigma around self-publishing will go away. I should also mention that I've read several traditionally published books with dreadful errors in them. Not only typos but inconsistencies like a woman trying to run in high heels on one page and on the next, she's wearing sensible medium-heeled shoes, yet no indication of a change of footwear in the narrative. In another book, a father and son were drinking beer out of cans, but they seemed to forget that fact and clashed their glasses together. In yet another book, a character changed name part-way through the story. It was not explained in the narrative, so I can only conclude it must have been a consistency error not picked up by the five (yes, five!) editors thanked by the author.

Xanxa, I’m sure most of us self-published authors are well-aware of the occasional inconsistencies and spelling/grammar errors in traditionally published books. A few misses in a book don’t bother me. It’s human error. A reader can tell when a book has been edited with a generous amount of attention and when it has had not nearly enough attention and there are errors on every chapter or even every page that make reading distracting. I don’t think we’re talking about the usual amount of misses in traditional publishing or in a well-edited self-published book. In my example, I’m referring to significant errors on every page and significant amounts of inconsistencies through the book that haven’t been cleaned up. When someone spends money and time on a book, the editing makes a difference for the reader experience. No one expects perfection. Errors will always get missed. They happen to all of us, and I learned the hard way in my first book that it takes several passes even after editing to catch what the human eye misses.

Unfortunately, I think that as long as there are many self-published authors whose books are riddled with errors, self-publishing may have that reputation for many readers. But that doesn’t mean many readers won’t seek out the well-written well-edited self-published books anyway. Readers that want to read decent well-edited books with interesting stories usually know how to seek them out. 🤓🧐😀

Leah, I totally agree. The odd error is expected, but if I see one on the first page it's a red flag, and multiple errors throughout is a no-go.

The trouble is, some self-pubbed authors can still be very successful (i.e. large following of readers waiting for their next book) even when they don't believe in editing. Someone commenting on another group on GR (can't remember which, it was a while ago) was trying to finish her book in time because she wanted to publish it that weekend. Finish ... as in finish writing it!

I agree Ian. I’ve seen some very successful yet low quality self-published books. I’m still happy for the author, but feel it sets a low bar for what writing is all about. Not just the story, but also the structure and grammar. Editing is very important for the quality of the book.

Thanks for all your replies.

So, my hot take.

Some years ago when the Internet was fairly new and I was younger and I was a bit more snobbish about my love for the English language and what not, I was always quick to point out people's spelling and grammatical errors. I've come down from my high horse since, realizing I was being a snob and an elitist jerk.

It does still bother me to see people making mistakes they should have mastered years ago, especially native speakers of the English language (ie a coworker earlier today sending out a text that said, "your welcome"), but I keep it to myself.

I have one exception. Social media. I do revert back to my snobbery if someone makes a mistake, especially if it looks like a typo, someone else comments, attempting to correct them and being an ass about it, and the person doing the correcting makes mistakes, too.

Okay, Phillip...you took this thread just one step too far...lol

Any author who might try to submit work without using services of beta readers or proofreaders is set to fail.

Xanxa wrote: "Replying to Leah, Jake and BA - It's a pity that self-publishing has such a dreadful reputation. There are many self-published authors (including myself) who take professional pride in polishing ou..."

I'd like to know which Trad. Publisher let that go through. A typo here and there, but any editor worth paying better catch those types of errors, which makes me think one of the tiny, you-pay-for-editing, publishers.

My favorite was the couple making love in the kitchen and in the same paragraph they are pulling the covers up over them with pillows behind their heads. When I pointed it out to the author, her comment, "Just use you imagination as to how they got there." Talk about an I-don't-care attitude. And that wasn't the only error. My review was 1 star. I wrote, "This author doesn't care how poorly her books are edited, stating when notified of several errors that needed to be corrected for me to use my imagination. Okay. I am. I'm imagining her at the bottom of Amazon's ratings for her lack of caring about her writing. I'll never read another of her books because I'm not fond of reading first drafts published as a finished book."

She attempted to get it removed. It's still there and she is way below me and I'm not all that high on the lists. You would need to go to the very last page of that genre to find her books.

I pay a copyeditor for all my books. She catches all my stupid errors including a timeline error. It's worth the $100/1000 words to know the book is the best I can make it at that time.

Xansa,
I didn't mean to infer the Grammer problems are solely in the realm of indie authors. When I put my two cents in I wasn't thinking of any particular type of author. Heck, I've read newspaper articles which are difficult to follow or understand due to poor sentence structure and grammatical errors.

Dwayne wrote: "Thanks for all your replies.

So, my hot take.

Some years ago when the Internet was fairly new and I was younger and I was a bit more snobbish about my love for the English language and what not, ..."

Everybody makes too errors, while I refuse to take any notice of "grammar police" who cannot correctly use subjunctives.

And most of us would have to look up what a subjunctive is....lol.

The Grammar Nazi's like to attack me. Just tell people you're a writer, and they seem to think it's their sacred duty to whip out that badge and hack my grammar apart. That is, until I point out how many errors their "correction" has. And is it me, or people addicted to passive voice? Geeze, it's one of my pet peeves and is bad, especially in work settings!

Gail wrote: "Okay, Phillip...you took this thread just one step too far...lol"

I'm sorry. Would you prefer this?

Sherri wrote: "The Grammar Nazi's like to attack me. Just tell people you're a writer, and they seem to think it's their sacred duty to whip out that badge and hack my grammar apart. That is, until I point out ho..."


I need you to beta read for me. I'm so, so bad with passive voice. I'm working on it, but it's still there along with telling and not showing.

B.A. wrote: "I'd like to know which Trad. Publisher let that go through. "

Harper Voyager in the case of the character name-change error and the five editors. It was an epic sword and sorcery novel by a long-established well-known author.

The other two, I can't remember. But they were Big Five, or subsidiaries thereof. They were both murder mystery/police procedural books.

JAKe wrote: "Xansa,
I didn't mean to infer the Grammer problems are solely in the realm of indie authors. When I put my two cents in I wasn't thinking of any particular type of author. Heck, I've read newspaper..."

Understood. I suppose I might have come across as a tad defensive. It's a pet peeve of mine when I see so much criticism of self-published authors. The majority opinion seems to paint us all as over-enthusiastic, unprepared, disorganised and barely literate amateurs. An opinion which is undeserved.

B.A. wrote: "And most of us would have to look up what a subjunctive is....lol."

The best way to remember when and how to use subjunctive is the old Fiddler on the Roof song "If I WERE a rich man". The subjunctive expresses wishes and theoretical concepts. Some consider it a mood rather than a tense. I love the subjunctive.

Phillip wrote: "Gail wrote: "Okay, Phillip...you took this thread just one step too far...lol"

I'm sorry. Would you prefer this?

"
I missed this one, Phillip! Laugh for the day! Thank you (bowing)

Gail wrote: "Phillip wrote: "Gail wrote: "Okay, Phillip...you took this thread just one step too far...lol"

I'm sorry. Would you prefer this?

"
I missed this one, Phillip! Laugh for the day! Thank you (bowing)"

I'm glad you liked it.

The times that I wince on seeing or hearing 'should of'! Another excellent addition to the thread, Phillip :)

Ditto

Phillip wrote: ""

Hahaha!!

Yeah, those corrective lenses can be a pain sometimes. I find that no matter what you do, there will be errors. If you put English that isn't up to par in dialogue some people don't get it that it is part of who that person is. So no matter what you do, you can't win as a writer.